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Made in ca
Ancient Venerable Dreadnought






So with the new drop from Tau today GW has added back into the game the beam mechanic back into the game "draw a line any thing under it, it takes a hit"
What other mechanics do you wanna see come back into the game that got cut out during 8th?

To many unpainted models to count. 
   
Made in ie
Battleship Captain





Not fething Beam weapons anyway. Awful psudo template rules.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/21 18:10:06



 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




NE Ohio, USA

 Backspacehacker wrote:

What other mechanics do you wanna see come back into the game that got cut out during 8th?


A few, gven in no particular order....

•Real deep strike rules - not this 9" away crap
•Functional morale mechanics
•Functional terrain rules
•Functional LoS rules
•Vehicles - facings/weapons arcs
•The return of the Squats
•The las/plas Razorback added to the Legends section
•Pre-primaris Ragnar Blackmane added to the Legends section - why not, we have non-primaris Calgar
•a rules clarification as to what "Forwards" means concerning moving flyers - you know, since that implies a facing. Wich doesn't exist rules wise in this edition....




   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut





SQUAAAATS!!!!
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





I mean we've had various spells do this as does Morty's pistol, so....this is nothing new.

   
Made in gb
Executing Exarch





quick quick hide the v-cannons

and of course make Soulblaze great again...

"AND YET YOU ACT AS IF THERE IS SOME IDEAL ORDER IN THE WORLD, AS IF THERE IS SOME...SOME RIGHTNESS IN THE UNIVERSE BY WHICH IT MAY BE JUDGED." 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Toughness values to actually represent the AV system of old better.

AV14 was effectively T10 (s10 needed 4's to glance)

Capping any T value at 8 is horrible. Also if T is triple the S, then it should be unwoundable, likewise if S is triple T, then it should auto-wound (no roll)
   
Made in fi
5th God of Chaos (O'rly?)





No it wasn't even nearly the same. There was big difference are you av13 or 14. T10 represents AV14? So AV13 T9? So there's no difference whether you shoot with autocannon, krak missile or lascannon...

2022 painted/bought: 227/322 
   
Made in ca
Ancient Venerable Dreadnought






Tittliewinks22 wrote:
Toughness values to actually represent the AV system of old better.

AV14 was effectively T10 (s10 needed 4's to glance)

Capping any T value at 8 is horrible. Also if T is triple the S, then it should be unwoundable, likewise if S is triple T, then it should auto-wound (no roll)

Honestly at that point just go back to the old wounding system it was not hard to remember
If the T of the target was 4 higher then the strength of the weapon it could not be wounded.

I'm not a fan of 6 always wounds.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
tneva82 wrote:
No it wasn't even nearly the same. There was big difference are you av13 or 14. T10 represents AV14? So AV13 T9? So there's no difference whether you shoot with autocannon, krak missile or lascannon...


Well you can thank GWs wounding system for that. Ever since they changed to the new system odd number str weapons have been gimped/awkward to use.
Str 6 and 7 weapons in particular are in a bad place.
Going back to the old to wound system would help with this

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/21 19:38:12


To many unpainted models to count. 
   
Made in us
Confessor Of Sins




 Backspacehacker wrote:
Tittliewinks22 wrote:
Toughness values to actually represent the AV system of old better.

AV14 was effectively T10 (s10 needed 4's to glance)

Capping any T value at 8 is horrible. Also if T is triple the S, then it should be unwoundable, likewise if S is triple T, then it should auto-wound (no roll)

Honestly at that point just go back to the old wounding system it was not hard to remember
If the T of the target was 4 higher then the strength of the weapon it could not be wounded.

I'm not a fan of 6 always wounds.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
tneva82 wrote:
No it wasn't even nearly the same. There was big difference are you av13 or 14. T10 represents AV14? So AV13 T9? So there's no difference whether you shoot with autocannon, krak missile or lascannon...


Well you can thank GWs wounding system for that. Ever since they changed to the new system odd number str weapons have been gimped/awkward to use.
Str 6 and 7 weapons in particular are in a bad place.
Going back to the old to wound system would help with this


Pretty sure it was 3 higher.

2500pts
2500
3000


 
   
Made in ca
Ancient Venerable Dreadnought






No it was 4 our higher you can't wound

S4 vs t4= 4s t5=5 t6,7=6 anything higher then that could not be wounded.

To many unpainted models to count. 
   
Made in us
Confessor Of Sins




 Backspacehacker wrote:
No it was 4 our higher you can't wound

S4 vs t4= 4s t5=5 t6,7=6 anything higher then that could not be wounded.


I was thinking of it as 'only can wound something that is less than or equal to 3 more than you toughness.' Same thing, just stated backwards.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/21 19:46:16


2500pts
2500
3000


 
   
Made in ca
Ancient Venerable Dreadnought






Oh I gotcha yea that's fair same thing hah.
But I really do miss that wounding system and thing it should be brought back

To many unpainted models to count. 
   
Made in de
Contagious Dreadnought of Nurgle




The morale system is the only thing that was better in the past (while being useless back then as well, because everybody but a Grot outright ignored it... And sometimes even grots ignored it).
The old morale system with today's Codizes would be pretty nice, because nobody is outright fearless, they're just ignoring attrition modifiers.

I'll also have to repeat though that beams never went away, they've been there the whole time in 8th and 9th so they're a strange thing to pick
   
Made in us
Preacher of the Emperor





St. Louis, Missouri USA

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
The morale system is the only thing that was better in the past (while being useless back then as well, because everybody but a Grot outright ignored it... And sometimes even grots ignored it).
The old morale system with today's Codizes would be pretty nice, because nobody is outright fearless, they're just ignoring attrition modifiers.

I'll also have to repeat though that beams never went away, they've been there the whole time in 8th and 9th so they're a strange thing to pick
is it too soon for: #MakeImperialMeltasBeamsToo ?

 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




NE Ohio, USA

 deviantduck wrote:
Sgt. Cortez wrote:
The morale system is the only thing that was better in the past (while being useless back then as well, because everybody but a Grot outright ignored it... And sometimes even grots ignored it).
The old morale system with today's Codizes would be pretty nice, because nobody is outright fearless, they're just ignoring attrition modifiers.

I'll also have to repeat though that beams never went away, they've been there the whole time in 8th and 9th so they're a strange thing to pick
is it too soon for: #MakeImperialMeltasBeamsToo ?


So long as it just the Imperial ones we should be good.
   
Made in us
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter







ccs wrote:
 deviantduck wrote:
Sgt. Cortez wrote:
The morale system is the only thing that was better in the past (while being useless back then as well, because everybody but a Grot outright ignored it... And sometimes even grots ignored it).
The old morale system with today's Codizes would be pretty nice, because nobody is outright fearless, they're just ignoring attrition modifiers.

I'll also have to repeat though that beams never went away, they've been there the whole time in 8th and 9th so they're a strange thing to pick
is it too soon for: #MakeImperialMeltasBeamsToo ?


So long as it just the Imperial ones we should be good.


What, you don't want to deal with the Fire Dragon beam parade?

Balanced Game: Noun. A game in which all options and choices are worth using.
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Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






FFS give us back HoW attacks!

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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




NE Ohio, USA

 AnomanderRake wrote:
ccs wrote:
 deviantduck wrote:
Sgt. Cortez wrote:
The morale system is the only thing that was better in the past (while being useless back then as well, because everybody but a Grot outright ignored it... And sometimes even grots ignored it).
The old morale system with today's Codizes would be pretty nice, because nobody is outright fearless, they're just ignoring attrition modifiers.

I'll also have to repeat though that beams never went away, they've been there the whole time in 8th and 9th so they're a strange thing to pick
is it too soon for: #MakeImperialMeltasBeamsToo ?


So long as it just the Imperial ones we should be good.


What, you don't want to deal with the Fire Dragon beam parade?


Your sarcasm detector not working?
   
Made in gb
Leader of the Sept







Bring back the template phase… vortex amd plasma grenades with persistent movable blast templates? Yes please

Please excuse any spelling errors. I use a tablet frequently and software keyboards are a pain!

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51st Dunedinw2;d0;l0
Cadre Coronal Afterglow w1;d0;l0 
   
Made in no
Huge Bone Giant





Bergen

There are bewmwewpons in the game from before. Mortarion lantern for instance. And others. Nothing new.

   
Made in be
Malicious Mandrake




What Flinty said....
   
Made in ca
Excited Doom Diver






I want my super formations back, those were fun.

Wolfspear's 2k
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Spiderfangs 2k
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Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




 Backspacehacker wrote:
Tittliewinks22 wrote:
Toughness values to actually represent the AV system of old better.

AV14 was effectively T10 (s10 needed 4's to glance)

Capping any T value at 8 is horrible. Also if T is triple the S, then it should be unwoundable, likewise if S is triple T, then it should auto-wound (no roll)

Honestly at that point just go back to the old wounding system it was not hard to remember
If the T of the target was 4 higher then the strength of the weapon it could not be wounded.

I'm not a fan of 6 always wounds.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
tneva82 wrote:
No it wasn't even nearly the same. There was big difference are you av13 or 14. T10 represents AV14? So AV13 T9? So there's no difference whether you shoot with autocannon, krak missile or lascannon...


Well you can thank GWs wounding system for that. Ever since they changed to the new system odd number str weapons have been gimped/awkward to use.
Str 6 and 7 weapons in particular are in a bad place.
Going back to the old to wound system would help with this


Alright, I think that I got it. Following your suggestions and using the current rules, is possible to arrange by changing the datasheet values of S for weapons and T for vehicles as follows:

AV10 -> T 6 (e.g. venom, ork trukks, land spider)
AV 11 -> T 8 (e.g. Rhino)
AV 12 -> T 12 (e.g. Falcon, Devilfish)
AV 13 -> T 16 (e.g. Leman Russ)
AV 14 -> T 24 (e.g. Land Raider, Necron Monolith)

Then for weapons with S less than 7, we keep them as they are (e.g. assault cannons to be S6)

S7 (e.g. autocanons) -> S 8
S8 (e.g. krak missiles) -> S 12
S9 (e.g. Las cannons) -> S 16
S10 (e.g. D-weapons) -> S 24

This will leave the following table



Lower values of S (e.g. bolters, etc..) will not match the old AV wounding / Hull point system, but we can argue that weapons of S6 are not meant to be hitting vehicles so we can make this compromise. If we ignore this then this table will approximately match the old AV system.

On top of that if we want to get back to the situation where small weapons couldn't hurt the heaviest tanks at all, then it can be applied a rule like:

If a weapon hits a unit that has the keyword vehicle then if the strength of this weapon is less than half the toughness of the unit been hit by the weapon then subtract one from the wound roll.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/27 20:44:58


 
   
Made in us
Daemonic Dreadnought





Eye of Terror

 Backspacehacker wrote:
What other mechanics do you wanna see come back into the game that got cut out during 8th?


Beam weapons are not unique to Tau. Mortarion had this since he got a datasheet.

Rules I'd like to see restored:

- Template Weapons
- Tank Shock
- Instant Death
- Initiative (added to every phase, including movement)
- Salvo rules from 6th edition applied to all heavy weapons not on a platform
- Closest model takes the wound
- No shooting through your own units
- Winged creatures have to land then charge the next turn
- 6th ed USRs
- Warpflame Gargoyles

   
Made in pt
[DCM]
Secret Inquisitorial Eldar Xenexecutor






your mind

 Flinty wrote:
Bring back the template phase… vortex amd plasma grenades with persistent movable blast templates? Yes please

This^^
Plus templates in general.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 techsoldaten wrote:
 Backspacehacker wrote:
What other mechanics do you wanna see come back into the game that got cut out during 8th?


Beam weapons are not unique to Tau. Mortarion had this since he got a datasheet.

Rules I'd like to see restored:

- Template Weapons
- Tank Shock
- Instant Death
- Initiative (added to every phase, including movement)
- Salvo rules from 6th edition applied to all heavy weapons not on a platform
- Closest model takes the wound
- No shooting through your own units
- Winged creatures have to land then charge the next turn
- 6th ed USRs
- Warpflame Gargoyles

Agreed… USRs generally, “dataslates” meh…

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/27 22:37:12


   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Backspacehacker wrote:
S4 vs t4= 4s t5=5 t6,7=6 anything higher then that could not be wounded.

I like how people already forgot how dumb T8 spam negating 90% of enemy weapons was (especially for armies that could spam monstrous creatures). Tyranid stampede is bad now when you can theoretically wound it with everything, it would be utterly broken if it was invulnerable (ditto for Eldar/Tau MC spam, or hell, IH Ironclads for SM). But hey, let's repeat easy mistakes of old editions, especially in an edition where cherrypicked spam of high T is easier than ever

Tittliewinks22 wrote:
Capping any T value at 8 is horrible. Also if T is triple the S, then it should be unwoundable, likewise if S is triple T, then it should auto-wound (no roll)

The issue with new system is T8 cap, not progression. Old system was gak because it made too easy to 2+ infantry models with even a tiny buff while requiring absurd strengths for anything even slightly tougher. Too narrow at start of the range, zero granularity for anything past that.

Say, that new S14 tau titan gun. Under what you propose, it would vaporize marines, but it couldn't touch the slightly diseased ones (or SM on a bike) because I can't even. How does it make sense, again?

   
Made in ca
Charing Cold One Knight





None really. If anything I feel like GW didn't do enough to sever its legacy root to WHFB with 8th. If anything I'd rather GW take cue from games like Legion, MCP, and such to evolve their game rather than regress.

Also the old wounding system sucked.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/28 16:59:53


 
   
Made in us
Stabbin' Skarboy





I feel like the old wounding system made a lot of stuff feel better imo, same with armor. One thing that I think the old system did well was it made you sorta have to do combined arms, at least a little bit. I feel like that’s something modern 40k is missing, army compositions just look strange now. “Ah, the Metamancian first regiment, comprises solely of tank commanders, ogryns, artillery, and priests.”

"Us Blood Axes hav lernt' a lot from da humies. How best ta kill 'em, fer example."
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Made in ca
Stormin' Stompa






Ottawa, ON

I do miss AV for vehicles. It felt more immersive and interesting to try and outflank vehicles. Bating the tank into shifting its firing angle. Getting that melta squad into the perfect position. Some strategy stuff.
Could you perhaps have some kind of toughness modifier?

+1 T when hitting the front
+0 T when hitting the side
- 1 T when hitting the back

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/28 20:57:00


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