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Made in hk
Longtime Dakkanaut





I have never seen lore about an "old" chaos space marine. It feels like all the Chaos space marine named characters have been around since the Horus Heresy. Abaddon, Fabius Bile, Kharn, etc. All these chaos space marines have been around for 10,000 years or more and they are not even primarchs. They are not demons either. They are still human. On the other hand, Dante is the oldest space marine and he is at most 400 years old?

So, once you turn to chaos, you can live forever?
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





Lebanon NH

I think that the "hand-wavium" answer is that Time Works Differently In The Realm Of Chaos (cue dramatic music).

Otherwise, yeah, it does seem a bit odd doesn't it? It's like Chaos just has a better space-marine health plan than the loyalists do.
   
Made in gb
Moustache-twirling Princeps




United Kingdom

Abaddon & Kharn are boosted by Chaos, while Fabius Bile is constantly cloning & tinkering with himself in order to keep himself alive away from Chaos.
   
Made in us
The Conquerer






Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios

Immortality is trivial for the chaos gods to bestow. Not to mention the fact that time doesn't flow normally in the warp.

You can be fairly sure you'll never die of natural causes once you've been living in the warp off and on. You'll either mutate into a spawn, get killed by something, or achieve daemonhood. Nobody dies of old age.

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Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Everyone else has pretty well nailed it. Some CSM are kept alive (or brought back to life) by the chaos gods. Some of them (like Bile) are using less(?) supernatural means to extend their lives. And some of them just spend so much time in the warp and the Eye that they've been around for a looooong objective time despite not being around that long subjectively. That is, a CSM may have been alive since the Heresy, but he's only experienced 100 years of experiences/memories since then.


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Made in gr
Storm Trooper with Maglight





It seems a pretty standard fantasy trope.

The people allied with the evil demonic force of darkness desire everything, live forever and usually end up destroying themselves; the "good guys" humbly accept their mortality and place in the greater scheme of things.

AFAIK, the Orks from LOTR have immortality too (being mockeries of Elves and all) but their lifestyle is to cruel and brutal for the individual Ork to get a lot out of it.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/28 08:11:20


 
   
Made in gb
Mad Gyrocopter Pilot





Northumberland

Personally I've always enjoyed that aspect of Chaos marines as it adds a nice edge of terror to your foes. The once noble defenders of the Imperium that turned against their brethern in the ancient past that you only heard about in dark whispers, only now they emerge out of the warp to bring death and damnation to your little corner of space...

Mix that in with more recent converts that until recently still fought by your side but now bear the symbols of the dark gods (and also maybe some human skin for kicks) and you have a cool enemy.

One and a half feet in the hobby


My Painting Log of various minis:
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Made in gb
Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon






To the best of my knowledge, no Astartes whether Chaos, Renegade or Loyalist has ever actually died of old age.

This can be misleading, due to Commander Dante being noted as particularly old for an Astartes. However, that only means he’s survived a life time of war longer than his contemporaries.

Indeed it’s mentioned quite a bit in the Heresy novels that Astartes are, so far as anyone knows, functionally immortal. But, due to being warriors, few live to a ripe old age on account of a tendency to be shot, stabbed, blown up, melted, dusted, stomped on etc.

As they’re generally out and about in the Galaxy travelling from warzone to warzone, it’s arguable Loyalists don’t live as long as Chaos or Renegades because they just see combat more often. I support this claim beyond being merely spurious speculation by pointing out that for those Renegades in the Eye of Terror (as it was before the rift) were kind of trapped there, until they could muster or join a flotilla capable of getting past the Imperial defences around the Cadian Gate.

   
Made in gb
Joined the Military for Authentic Experience





On an Express Elevator to Hell!!

Yes right - you can imagine the chaos marines being a lot more savvy as well* - those that have survived thousands of years (even taking into account the time dilation in the EoT) have probably become very clever at picking fights they can win. The ADB Night Lords Trilogy paint a pretty good picture of that. Contrast with Imperial troops, who are far more likely to be placed directly into the path of oncoming Hive fleets and whatnot.

Remember also a story that went along with an old Epic battle report in White Dwarf, which is a battle told through the eyes of a chaos marine. He sees one of his compatriots fall, but remarks that his Chaos god probably won't let him escape damnation that easily..

* Exception to this is anyone who has started getting into Khorne, who seem to be almost hilariously self-destructive (thinking of the Khorne Champion in the one Graham McNeil story, who mortally wounds himself before a one on one fight, so that whatever happens blood will flow!) I would guess the T&Cs of that patron wouldn't come with a pension plan.

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Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka







Eldenfirefly wrote:
On the other hand, Dante is the oldest space marine and he is at most 400 years old?

Sure, if 400 = ~1,500...

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 Kanluwen wrote:
This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.

Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army...

tneva82 wrote:
You aren't even trying ty pretend for honest arqument. Open bad faith trolling.
- No reason to keep this here, unless people want to use it for something... 
   
Made in gb
Preparing the Invasion of Terra






All Space Marines are functionally immortals as their bodies don't degrade like normal humans. It was one of the big questions asked in the HH books. IIRC a Rememberancer assigned to Garviel Loken asked if Astartes ever grow old and die, with Loken answering that he's sure they can't but no Astartes has ever lived long enough to find out.
The Chaos Champions have gifts from their patrons and the unnatural flow of time in the Warp to thank for their extreme extended life.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Eldenfirefly wrote:
I have never seen lore about an "old" chaos space marine. It feels like all the Chaos space marine named characters have been around since the Horus Heresy. Abaddon, Fabius Bile, Kharn, etc. All these chaos space marines have been around for 10,000 years or more and they are not even primarchs. They are not demons either. They are still human. On the other hand, Dante is the oldest space marine and he is at most 400 years old?

So, once you turn to chaos, you can live forever?


Therez more than a few long lived loyalists too. Bjorn the fell-handed walked with russ. He's still technically kicking eben though yes he's a dreadnought. Grimnar has led the Space wolves for something like seven centuries at this point and Dante is actully about 1100 iirc.

Space marines in general are functionally immortal. With chaos it's not so much 10k years as time flows differently for them. 10k years to us might only be two or three centuries to them. Its just they tend to die in battle rather than old age.

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Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Grey Templar wrote:
You can be fairly sure you'll never die of natural causes once you've been living in the warp off and on. You'll either mutate into a spawn, get killed by something, or achieve daemonhood.

You can argue demonhood is death, too. You're pretty much replaced by a detached part of whatever chaos power 'raised' you wearing your mutated skin. The 'you' bit is destroyed by the process. Which is a big part of why Huron and Armless refuse to actually do so.
   
Made in de
Contagious Dreadnought of Nurgle





Eldenfirefly wrote:
I have never seen lore about an "old" chaos space marine. It feels like all the Chaos space marine named characters have been around since the Horus Heresy. Abaddon, Fabius Bile, Kharn, etc. All these chaos space marines have been around for 10,000 years or more and they are not even primarchs. They are not demons either. They are still human. On the other hand, Dante is the oldest space marine and he is at most 400 years old?

So, once you turn to chaos, you can live forever?


Just wanted to say that in Lords of Silence you see a Plague Marine Squad where the Lord is the only Veteran of the long war and all of the others are later Renegades. So there are characters in the lore that are just... Old Marines but not HH Marines
   
Made in ca
Librarian with Freaky Familiar






So this is actually something that's not unique to chaos space Marines. We actually don't canonically know how long a space marine can live.
This is because they normally die in battle not from old age, with the oldest living space marine being, If I remember correctly, either Dante, or thar one ultra marine Chaplin.

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Made in se
Dakka Veteran





Sweden

The traitor marines spend most of thier time som inside the eye of terror. Time does not apply as we comprehend it in the warp. So though Abbadon might be 10.000 outside of the warp, his body might not be older than 1000 years.

An open mind is like a fortress with its gates unbarred and unguarded.  
   
Made in fi
Courageous Space Marine Captain






Normal marines are not unaging. 6th edition BRB says marines have a lifespan of two or three times of a normal man and Cassius is considered old nearing four hundred. So non-BA marines seem to have a lifespan of a few centuries.BA have stated to have a longer lifespan than other marines, which of course necessitates that it is compared to something finite!

For chaos marines the answer is warp shenanigans and being empowered by gods.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/29 16:42:24


   
Made in gb
Mad Gyrocopter Pilot





Northumberland

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
To the best of my knowledge, no Astartes whether Chaos, Renegade or Loyalist has ever actually died of old age.

This can be misleading, due to Commander Dante being noted as particularly old for an Astartes. However, that only means he’s survived a life time of war longer than his contemporaries.

Indeed it’s mentioned quite a bit in the Heresy novels that Astartes are, so far as anyone knows, functionally immortal. But, due to being warriors, few live to a ripe old age on account of a tendency to be shot, stabbed, blown up, melted, dusted, stomped on etc.

As they’re generally out and about in the Galaxy travelling from warzone to warzone, it’s arguable Loyalists don’t live as long as Chaos or Renegades because they just see combat more often. I support this claim beyond being merely spurious speculation by pointing out that for those Renegades in the Eye of Terror (as it was before the rift) were kind of trapped there, until they could muster or join a flotilla capable of getting past the Imperial defences around the Cadian Gate.



Also very good point from MDG about the constant pressure the Imperium is under, there is a lot of additional attrition that will be killing off loyalist marines at a quicker rate. Those naughty Chaotic boys have the luxury off popping out of their warp time holes for a quick raid on an undefended target and escape without taking too many hits.

One and a half feet in the hobby


My Painting Log of various minis:
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Made in gb
Moustache-twirling Princeps




United Kingdom

The Salamander Gravius was over 10,000 years old when he was 'recovered' - but he wasn't combat-effective at that point, and he might have been in a Sus-an coma (from Tome of Fire).

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/29 23:03:11


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Denison, Iowa

I believe that the Custodes codex states they ARE immortal, unlike marines.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





I thought that space marines have been referred to as immortal Demi gods since 2nd edition.
   
Made in gb
Sagitarius with a Big F'in Gun





 Pacific wrote:

Remember also a story that went along with an old Epic battle report in White Dwarf, which is a battle told through the eyes of a chaos marine. He sees one of his compatriots fall, but remarks that his Chaos god probably won't let him escape damnation that easily..



That sounds ace.

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Made in ca
Skink Chief with Poisoned Javelins




Michigan

Now I'm trying to remember... I have a vague memory of reading something stating that Dante's age might be starting to affect him in unusual ways.

Is this something actual? Wish I could remember where I read it.
   
Made in gb
Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon






If we properly break this down.

1. We have at least a theoretical from the Heresy that, outside of the more or less inevitable death in war, Astartes are functionally immortal.

2. Traitorous Astartes from that era are still up and about. Some absolutely have divine intervention (Kharn for one, given he got proper deded before Khorne decide he was his favourite chew toy and couldn’t go in the bin just yet, and Lucius).

3. Commander Dante is the oldest known loyalist Astartes not interred within a Dreadnought sarcophagus.

It’s right here we really need to be careful of drawing conclusions. Mostly due to lack of data.

Let’s look at Dante. His most (genuinely) remarkable feat is leading his Chapter for over 1,100 years. So we can reasonably conclude he’s somewhat older than 1,100, because he didn’t start out leading the Chapter.

As has been mentioned, it seems his great age might be taking its toll. Now I’m not going to claim that source is wrong because. But I would urge caution that he is a Blood Angel. A Legion/Chapter you and I know to have quite serious flaws in their Geneseed. He’s also very much singular.

That he’s lived way beyond the life expectancy of any other Astartes should really only be seen as a measure of his luck and skill. Being singular in his long survival isn’t evidence that any Astartes, without Divine intervention can’t live that long.

We simply lack the info to draw that conclusion. For all we know, Dante is entirely down to sheer blind luck, and his alleged slowing down is in fact more to do with his Geneseed than it is an inherent limitation upon Astartes.

Now, point 2. The Warp is weird. Time flows differently, and the laws of physics and that are more…suggestions. Not even guidelines. Just suggestions. We don’t really know how long, in terms of Real Space Not Gribbly Wibbly time has passed for the named Chaos Heroes. It’s very much up in the air.

And let us streak back to point 1……

We just….don’t know. Forever is a long time, no matter what Jareth might tell an underage girl. Living for 10,000ish years? Well, it’s a bloody good innings. But it does not immortality make.

Ask the Necrons. The Silent King is at least 60,000,000,000 years old. He’s still kicking and to our sad computational meat sacks truly unfathomably old. And even then, the 60,000,000,000 years is when the Necrons entered stasis. We don’t know how long it was between his birth as a natural born Necrontyr, biotransfefence and then his self imposed exile.

Of course. The Silent King is no longer a natural being. But then, neither is any Astartes. Both are the products of arcane science which might as well be magic.

There’s also the argument of what, in the face of biotransference, death actually is. If I for instance, cast off my meat puppet and uploaded my idiot consciousness to a computer….am I actually still alive? Technically, yes. Provided my conscious remains whole. But, with my meat puppet getting increasingly rotten stinky and maggot riddled?

   
Made in fi
Courageous Space Marine Captain






We know just fine how long marines live normally. They age and live for a few centuries, BA longer. Some BL authors made a mistake earlier on, but that has been backtracked from. It was just an an in-universe mistake too, made when the marines were new, so they wouldn't know for certain how long they live.

   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut







On top of the usual 'blame it on The Warp' explanations, there's also:

* at least the Primarchs, if not the rest of the Space Marines, have genetic memory when you clone them. (How many clones of Fabius Bile are there running around, anyway? )
* It simply isn't explained how the CSM (even Abaddon) survive 10,000 years into the present, because the possibilities that can be dreamt up are better than any explanation that can be given.

Hell, frankly it would just as plausible to just assume that anyone claiming to be a 10,000 year old famous Chaos person is an imposter, whether or not that imposter has the backing of various warp entities or other forces. Even, and especially Abaddon.
   
Made in gb
Automated Rubric Marine of Tzeentch




dorset

 cuda1179 wrote:
I believe that the Custodes codex states they ARE immortal, unlike marines.


Maybe immortal, but they DO age, and have been known to "retire" form guarding the emperor because their reactions have slowed (by the tiniest amount, but a measurable one), after which they go out into the imperium and just.....watch, for problems and threats to the Big E.



I think we can assume that loyalist marines also age and slow down somewhat, and given thier near -constant fighting they partake it, its no unreasonable to say the cruel mathematics of war kill them before theirs any noticeable degradation.....

To be a man in such times is to be one amongst untold billions. It is to live in the cruelest and most bloody regime imaginable. These are the tales of those times. Forget the power of technology and science, for so much has been forgotten, never to be relearned. Forget the promise of progress and understanding, for in the grim dark future there is only war. There is no peace amongst the stars, only an eternity of carnage and slaughter, and the laughter of thirsting gods.

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Made in gb
Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon






Also, it’s not been until very recently Custodes have been engaging in fisticuffs. Again, compare to Astartes who whilst not strictly frontline troops, almost always assume the equivalent of a Forlorn Hope.

So again, most Loyalist Astartes are just going to face far higher levels of attrition than Custodes and Traitors.

   
 
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