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I get easily bored with the ultra-mainstream factions so I've been wondering about Space Marine Scouts.

I do believe that with more bodies, you have a greater number of shots (there's Overwatch for the elite teams I know but even if 1-2 falls, it's going to be hairy) and a much larger APL pool.

However, what with the recent balance pass (+1 model to non-tactical, non-scout teams), have scouts and tacs been rendered a sub-optimal choice?

In short... yes.

We houseruled to allow a mixed Tac/Scout team.

Gives you more scoring options and you get an interesting bodies/armour mix.

We did consider making the sniper rifles the same as the Krieg sniper rifled, but that was deemed too powerful.

First Born Kill team (SEEK & DESTROY / SECURITY / INFILTRATION / RECON

1 Tactical fire team
3 marines. One can be a heavy gunner or gunner.

1 Scout fire team
5 Scouts. One can be a heavy gunner and 2 can be snipers.

! tactical marine can be replaced by a tactical Sergeant, OR 1 scout can be replaced by a scout Sergeant.

Yeah, unfortunately. While I've heard that 10 scouts with a shotgun heavy build are a strong team against squishier teams, I am afraid a 6 model Deathwatch became the new go-to build for most Marine players.

You could go with a roster of 10 scouts and 10 Deathwatch, that might be a fun way to combine both options?

My firstborn tacticals have been feeling depressed lately.. the balance update did them no favours. They used to trade in some of the tac ops and more wounds on the Primaris for one extra model and more special weapons, but now the tradeoff just isnt worth anymore..

I dont know much about kill team 2021 as i lost interest in the rules once i knew the direction of granularity each team would be lacking.

But it seems from this thread, that its design has some aberrant solutions being created in an attempt to balance?

Or am i completely misreading and misunderstanding?

They added an extra man to the teams most struggling.

Tacticals and Scouts seem to have been caught just above that line, causing everything below them to jump above them.

The Compendium is being treated very much as the bare minimum they could get away with, and isn't being given much attention.
The "bespoke" teams that are releasing in White Dwarf and the boxes are the "intended" way to play, and they're generally a lot more balanced against one another.

Thanks for the input guys! Very insightful comments! Y'all get exaltations!

The_Real_Chris wrote:
In short... yes.

We houseruled to allow a mixed Tac/Scout team.

Gives you more scoring options and you get an interesting bodies/armour mix.

We did consider making the sniper rifles the same as the Krieg sniper rifled, but that was deemed too powerful.

First Born Kill team (SEEK & DESTROY / SECURITY / INFILTRATION / RECON

1 Tactical fire team
3 marines. One can be a heavy gunner or gunner.

1 Scout fire team
5 Scouts. One can be a heavy gunner and 2 can be snipers.

! tactical marine can be replaced by a tactical Sergeant, OR 1 scout can be replaced by a scout Sergeant.

That's an interesting idea!

How many games do you played with the homebrewed team and do you and your friends consider it balanced? Very curious.

-----------------------------------------------

 tauist wrote:
Yeah, unfortunately. While I've heard that 10 scouts with a shotgun heavy build are a strong team against squishier teams, I am afraid a 6 model Deathwatch became the new go-to build for most Marine players.

You could go with a roster of 10 scouts and 10 Deathwatch, that might be a fun way to combine both options?

My firstborn tacticals have been feeling depressed lately.. the balance update did them no favours. They used to trade in some of the tac ops and more wounds on the Primaris for one extra model and more special weapons, but now the tradeoff just isnt worth anymore..

Yeah this is what I was afraid of.

I've always been about the little guys and have always sided with people who are more interested in game balance so it's kind of sad seeing the balance pass making these dudes a sub-optimal choice.

I still went ahead and bought another box of scouts though so I'll see in the days ahead. Will prolly make a YouTube battle report starring these guys.

-----------------------------------------------

 Wiz Warrior wrote:
I dont know much about kill team 2021 as i lost interest in the rules once i knew the direction of granularity each team would be lacking.

But it seems from this thread, that its design has some aberrant solutions being created in an attempt to balance?

Or am i completely misreading and misunderstanding?

Games Workshop released a balance pass hidden in one of their articl---wait. I just checked. It turns out they've uploaded it to their Kill Team page: https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/03/NoRqWNpHoXuqIbg8.pdf

About granularity, if you mean the team flexibility allowed by the points system KT2018 had, I'm with you on that one.

Probably a contentious opinion but: If GW would only marry KT2018's points system with KT2021's much more fluid ranged and melee system, it would be even greater.

-----------------------------------------------

 kirotheavenger wrote:
They added an extra man to the teams most struggling.

Tacticals and Scouts seem to have been caught just above that line, causing everything below them to jump above them.

The Compendium is being treated very much as the bare minimum they could get away with, and isn't being given much attention.
The "bespoke" teams that are releasing in White Dwarf and the boxes are the "intended" way to play, and they're generally a lot more balanced against one another.

"Tacticals and Scouts seem to have been caught just above that line, causing everything below them to jump above them."

This was what I was afraid of. I had this sinking feeling when the balance slate launched.

"The 'bespoke' teams that are releasing in White Dwarf and the boxes are the 'intended' way to play, and they're generally a lot more balanced against one another."

This gives me hope though. I'm hoping we'll get a WD Scout kill team soon. ^_^

I also hope GW would hurry up and release more bespoke factions so we can get that juicy annual; it's very inconvenient ordering half a dozen mags just so I can complete all my datacards and rules. :(

 PPPointyEars wrote:


That's an interesting idea!

How many games do you played with the homebrewed team and do you and your friends consider it balanced? Very curious.

We used that and the ability to take any Primaris marine in a Primaris team in about a dozen games.

The main boost was the firepower without having to use the bolter strat.

Overall it performed above the CSM/Cultist team due to the firepower but was still inferior to the stronger teams. An interesting boost was the ability to get INFILTRATION / RECON missions which was situational but sometimes decisive.

I would rate them below the 6 strong Primaris however.

I still went ahead and bought another box of scouts though so I'll see in the days ahead. Will prolly make a YouTube battle report starring these guys.

One thing we discussed was changing the Scout sniper rifle to the Vet Guard sniper rifle stats. It is a big boost though but also means you are pretty much a static 6 man team (2 heavies, 4 snipers) and 4 man objective squad.

Other ideas included giving them 3APL OR giving them access to Shock Assault/Bolter discipline. Of the two I would try the strats first as they don't have as many as regular marines and with only 2APL it is anyway harder to use them. A small buff, but something. If that doesn't work 3APL could be interesting.

Note the Scout sarge should have 3APL and 10-11 wounds regardless. As a full marine we have no idea why he doesn't!

Probably a contentious opinion but: If GW would only marry KT2018's points system with KT2021's much more fluid ranged and melee system, it would be even greater.

So a chap online has worked out point costs for marines and some other teams, and if you play say all marines it seems balanced. Can't find it offhand but the facebook group has a link somewhere.

scout sarge should indeed have 3 APL, but in KT21, wounds are a combination of wounds/toughness/armour values of 40K, therefore I can kind of understand why it's not 12.

 tauist wrote:
scout sarge should indeed have 3 APL, but in KT21, wounds are a combination of wounds/toughness/armour values of 40K, therefore I can kind of understand why it's not 12.

Well a Guardsman is Wounds 7, 5+ Sv (T3, W1, Sv5+)
A scout is Wounds 8, 4+ Sv (T4, W1, Sv4+)
A tactical marine is Wounds 11, 3+ Sv (T4, W2, Sv3+)
A Primaris is Wounds 13, 3+ Sv (T4, W2, Sv3+, Transhuman)
A heavy intercessor is Wounds 18, 3+ Sv (T5, W3, Sv3+, transhuman)

It kinda looks like it was written by someone following the convention of leader gets +1w and leaving it at that.