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serious question, I could totally see either in 10th edition or maybe for basic bolters in Chaos Space Marines Codex, that bolters will get significant upgrades to keep up with how killy 40k is getting
   
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IMHO, bolters are fine as is, it's the other standard infantry weapons which are getting out of line. Everything getting AP-1 just makes any armour save effectively worse.

   
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It's hard to justify basic bolters not getting AP1 on base rate. At this point, bolters are outclassed by roughly half the small arms in the game. chaos would be a good place to kick that off, although I wouldn't be surprised if they're renamed to "hellforged bolters" or some nonsense.

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It'd be funny to give Chaos bolters a -1ap but not the Imperial ones.
Make the Imperial players wait 2.5 years+ for something that could appear at any moment via FAQ etc - but doesn't "for reasons".
   
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SoB already have ministorum flamers and artificer crafted storm bolters to make them improved. Hellforged Bolters sounds right to me.

 
   
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 Andilus Greatsword wrote:
Everything getting AP-1 just makes any armour save effectively worse.


Yeah, I like modifying armor saves as a mechanic, but GW has gone way overboard with handing out AP, and it seriously devalues armor.

I'd say it started with Marines 2.0, but now it's propagated to every new faction.

   
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I think small arms in general need to do something more useful like they would IRL

for example if your unit is five models with lascannons, it’s easier to suppress

But if it has one lascannon and four models with bolt guns or las guns, then it’s harder to suppress and it can get a boost from being well defended by the small arms

And ap-1 is absolutely out of the question because it would be everywhere and saves would be fairly pointless. This was the case in second edition when almost every infantry model had a -1 ap weapon and marines barely got to use their full 3+. D2 I could see and it’d be funny because it’d be a relatively neutral effect on marines’ overall power.

The other source of buffs to bolt guns should be the model’s skill. Imo a model with higher Ld and A on its profile should be more lethal than a model with lower stats even using the exact same gun. Like a chapter master with a basic bolt gun should 360 no scope people easily and an inq henchman should do less

It also bothers me to use the term bolter and not bolt gun, even though bolter is used everywhere
   
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I think 40k has an identity crisis in a way, and there needs to be a serious assessment of how they want certain units to weigh against others, how selections are supposed to perform in game, and how much those things should line up with the narrative. Obviously it was never perfect and never will be, as some degree of compromise must be made for the sake of gameplay, but this is the worst I have seen things since I started playing in 5th.

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bat702 wrote:
serious question, I could totally see either in 10th edition or maybe for basic bolters in Chaos Space Marines Codex, that bolters will get significant upgrades to keep up with how killy 40k is getting


Need? No.
But its inevitable now, unless 10th starts over. Given fleshborer's new statline, there's zero chance that when loyalist marines come around again, bolters won't be even more better.
The one upside is that its a chance to do the sensible thing and collapse the 40+ variants of bolter into (hopefully) a single profile (but probably 2 to 5).

I legitimately think that chaos will be stuck with the current bolter and like wounds, may or may not get the upgrade for a year+.

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GW's trend has absolutely been to make more unique profiles rather than less.

I would be less surprised if they added a "Relic Marine" datasheet with unique profiles for "Umbra Bolters" than I would be for them to condense Primaris' Bolters into fewer profiles.

   
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Going by upcoming things (accursed weapons, some tyranid weapons- like genestealers), I'm not sure that holds true.

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I could totally see even all primaris bolters getting slight upgrades, one idea for basic bolters might be to turn them into rapid fire 2, this makes some sense if you think of the guards men las gun getting first rank second rank fire, turning their str 3 las guns into rapid fire 2
   
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Bolters are going to be Str 5, -1, 1D I bet in Marines 2.0.....

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Strength 5 would be too little by itself imo, but -1 ap by itself might be enough
   
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I don't think Marines need to have bolters buffed (unless mayne they get buffed to 2D to be an anti-Marine weapon), but I do think most small arms need to lose a pip of AP (to a min of 0, no AP numbers that buff armour saves please).
   
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The balance of small arms in 40k has gotten really funky in the past 2 years or so.

Just learned that the Fleshborer was going to S5 AP-1 too. That's . . . Wierd.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/03/12 18:11:01


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bat702 wrote:
I could totally see even all primaris bolters getting slight upgrades, one idea for basic bolters might be to turn them into rapid fire 2, this makes some sense if you think of the guards men las gun getting first rank second rank fire, turning their str 3 las guns into rapid fire 2

No. That makes no sense whatsoever. Why should primaris get an all-the-time better buff to their better gun while guard still have to rely on an order for their flashlight?
That's exactly the kind of upgrade that is making the game worse.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/03/12 18:49:34


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Voss wrote:
bat702 wrote:
I could totally see even all primaris bolters getting slight upgrades, one idea for basic bolters might be to turn them into rapid fire 2, this makes some sense if you think of the guards men las gun getting first rank second rank fire, turning their str 3 las guns into rapid fire 2

No. That makes no sense whatsoever. Why should primaris get an all-the-time better buff to their better gun while guard still have to rely on an order for their flashlight?
That's exactly the kind of upgrade that is making the game worse.

Because heaven forbid the Fleshborer stop being a worse bolter.
   
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 ClockworkZion wrote:
Voss wrote:
bat702 wrote:
I could totally see even all primaris bolters getting slight upgrades, one idea for basic bolters might be to turn them into rapid fire 2, this makes some sense if you think of the guards men las gun getting first rank second rank fire, turning their str 3 las guns into rapid fire 2

No. That makes no sense whatsoever. Why should primaris get an all-the-time better buff to their better gun while guard still have to rely on an order for their flashlight?
That's exactly the kind of upgrade that is making the game worse.

Because heaven forbid the Fleshborer stop being a worse bolter.
That IS pretty odd though. It's a little like saying "Heaven forbid guardsmen be better than Space Marines." You have this relationship that's been stable for . . . 30 years? And then suddenly up-end it.

S5 AP-1 fleshborers still don't have the range and ability to fire twice that the bolters do, so I woukdn't say they're "better" necessarily, but there's an unprecedented encroachment there. Plus you still have this situation where a Bolter is no better at killing an Ork than a Lasgun.

Hard not to start wondering if they're slow rolling the rebalancing in to prime players for another SM 2.0 book.

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 Insectum7 wrote:
S5 AP-1 fleshborers still don't have the range and ability to fire twice that the bolters do, so I woukdn't say they're "better" necessarily, but there's an unprecedented encroachment there.
A little Mathhammer and S4 AP0 D1 is exactly half the damage as S5 AP-1 D1 against T4 3+ save and assuming the same BS. So yeah, Fleshborer doesn't have the option to Rapid Fire... but it effectively always is compared to a Boltgun. Looks like it's an Assault Weapon too, so the shorter range is mitigated by 'can be fired while advancing'.

Anyway, I think the better comparison is the Astartes Shotgun, it's just that Boltgun is more iconic. S4 AP0 D1 Assault 2 18" vs S5 AP-1 D1 Assault 1 18". Fleshborer will do more damage against harder than Marine targets (T4 3+) and Shotgun will do more against weaker than Marine.
   
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 ClockworkZion wrote:
Voss wrote:
bat702 wrote:
I could totally see even all primaris bolters getting slight upgrades, one idea for basic bolters might be to turn them into rapid fire 2, this makes some sense if you think of the guards men las gun getting first rank second rank fire, turning their str 3 las guns into rapid fire 2

No. That makes no sense whatsoever. Why should primaris get an all-the-time better buff to their better gun while guard still have to rely on an order for their flashlight?
That's exactly the kind of upgrade that is making the game worse.

Because heaven forbid the Fleshborer stop being a worse bolter.


Uh, yes. For a 5 point base model, yeah? 18" S5 Ap -1 D1 is very out of line. Making a gaunt cost more to compensate is also out of line.

Not sure what either has to do with doubling the firepower of marines all the time because guardsmen are stuck with FRSRF as an order.

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Voss wrote:
 ClockworkZion wrote:
Voss wrote:
bat702 wrote:
I could totally see even all primaris bolters getting slight upgrades, one idea for basic bolters might be to turn them into rapid fire 2, this makes some sense if you think of the guards men las gun getting first rank second rank fire, turning their str 3 las guns into rapid fire 2

No. That makes no sense whatsoever. Why should primaris get an all-the-time better buff to their better gun while guard still have to rely on an order for their flashlight?
That's exactly the kind of upgrade that is making the game worse.

Because heaven forbid the Fleshborer stop being a worse bolter.


Uh, yes. For a 5 point base model, yeah? 18" S5 Ap -1 D1 is very out of line. Making a gaunt cost more to compensate is also out of line.

Not sure what either has to do with doubling the firepower of marines all the time because guardsmen are stuck with FRSRF as an order.

I was being sarcastic. Point is that Marines don't automatically have to be buffed because someone else has a gun that used to be similar but now has different stats.
   
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 ClockworkZion wrote:
Spoiler:
Voss wrote:
 ClockworkZion wrote:
Voss wrote:
bat702 wrote:
I could totally see even all primaris bolters getting slight upgrades, one idea for basic bolters might be to turn them into rapid fire 2, this makes some sense if you think of the guards men las gun getting first rank second rank fire, turning their str 3 las guns into rapid fire 2

No. That makes no sense whatsoever. Why should primaris get an all-the-time better buff to their better gun while guard still have to rely on an order for their flashlight?
That's exactly the kind of upgrade that is making the game worse.

Because heaven forbid the Fleshborer stop being a worse bolter.


Uh, yes. For a 5 point base model, yeah? 18" S5 Ap -1 D1 is very out of line. Making a gaunt cost more to compensate is also out of line.

Not sure what either has to do with doubling the firepower of marines all the time because guardsmen are stuck with FRSRF as an order.

I was being sarcastic. Point is that Marines don't automatically have to be buffed because someone else has a gun that used to be similar but now has different stats.

Yeah, but I doubt that's how gw will see it, at least when it comes to loyalist marines. For the record, I think we need less AP in the game, not more. But that means fleshborers need to be AP0 as well. And pulse rifles, and shurican catapults, and.......
   
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 Insectum7 wrote:

S5 AP-1 fleshborers still don't have the range and ability to fire twice that the bolters do, so I wouldn't say they're "better" necessarily, but there's an unprecedented encroachment there. Plus you still have this situation where a Bolter is no better at killing an Ork than a Lasgun.

I'll be honest, I'm a bit sick of this argument because it boils down to this "Oh, this is nonsense that my super elite soldiers primary weapon is only as good as a lasgun vs this one specific army! How dare they!" Honestly, one of the worst things GW did was give orkz T5 because they are so incompetent when it comes to rolling out any buffs for orkz that they hammered us with more nerfs than you would have imagined to "balance" it out. Bolters sucking more against orkz is a bad argument, we are 1 faction, what about the other 90% of the game which is T4 and T3? Does that not matter because 1 specific example?

 catbarf wrote:

Yeah, I like modifying armor saves as a mechanic, but GW has gone way overboard with handing out AP, and it seriously devalues armor.
I'd say it started with Marines 2.0, but now it's propagated to every new faction.


I'm still waiting for Orkz to receive their 8th edition version of buffs to small arms that Marines got let alone their 9th edition one which is apparently even more bonkers than 8th. Marines got functionally twice as many shots and situational -1AP on their bolters. Ork shoota's....they lost DDD but gained a 3rd shot if they somehow get within 9' of their opponent. I mean...they didn't even have the decency to hand us 6 more inches of range to at least make it feasible that occasionally you might get a shoota into dakka range. and lets not even talk about losing assault.


 Tomsug wrote:
Semper krumps under the radar

 
   
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SemperMortis wrote:

I'm still waiting for Orkz to receive their 8th edition version of buffs to small arms that Marines got let alone their 9th edition one which is apparently even more bonkers than 8th. Marines got functionally twice as many shots and situational -1AP on their bolters. Ork shoota's....they lost DDD but gained a 3rd shot if they somehow get within 9' of their opponent. I mean...they didn't even have the decency to hand us 6 more inches of range to at least make it feasible that occasionally you might get a shoota into dakka range. and lets not even talk about losing assault.



But if Orks were good it might compromise the Astartes power fantasy, and we can't have that.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/03/13 00:45:43


 
   
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SemperMortis wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:

S5 AP-1 fleshborers still don't have the range and ability to fire twice that the bolters do, so I wouldn't say they're "better" necessarily, but there's an unprecedented encroachment there. Plus you still have this situation where a Bolter is no better at killing an Ork than a Lasgun.

I'll be honest, I'm a bit sick of this argument because it boils down to this "Oh, this is nonsense that my super elite soldiers primary weapon is only as good as a lasgun vs this one specific army! How dare they!" Honestly, one of the worst things GW did was give orkz T5 because they are so incompetent when it comes to rolling out any buffs for orkz that they hammered us with more nerfs than you would have imagined to "balance" it out. Bolters sucking more against orkz is a bad argument, we are 1 faction, what about the other 90% of the game which is T4 and T3? Does that not matter because 1 specific example?

Haha, no. Marines should have stayed at 1W and Orks should have stayed at T4, but the offensive power of Boyz should've been beefed to be more innate rather than relying on whatever weird combos people have been relying on to make them at all effective in recent editions.

The Lasgun-boltgun thing is just one of the oddities brought along by the current, seemingly "throw it all at the wall and see if it sticks" design paradigm. That said, the Lasgun-boltgun thing stands out more than other things because GEQ, MEQ and Orks comprise some of the most fundamental balance relationships in the game.

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I definitely think Bolters should be made S5. Not only to match the ork's new toughness. It becomes pretty laughable especially when gaunt weapons are about to go S5 AP-1. Something which is literally supposed to be the most basic and cheap infantry of the setting baring gretchins and guards.

And that's coming from a Tyranid and ork player.

Now, although i feel it would be perfectly thematic, I don't think it would be a good idea for the game itself. Ork boyz are already bad as it is, and really don't need that in their life when they are 9ppm.
   
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 ClockworkZion wrote:
Voss wrote:
 ClockworkZion wrote:
Voss wrote:
bat702 wrote:
I could totally see even all primaris bolters getting slight upgrades, one idea for basic bolters might be to turn them into rapid fire 2, this makes some sense if you think of the guards men las gun getting first rank second rank fire, turning their str 3 las guns into rapid fire 2

No. That makes no sense whatsoever. Why should primaris get an all-the-time better buff to their better gun while guard still have to rely on an order for their flashlight?
That's exactly the kind of upgrade that is making the game worse.

Because heaven forbid the Fleshborer stop being a worse bolter.


Uh, yes. For a 5 point base model, yeah? 18" S5 Ap -1 D1 is very out of line. Making a gaunt cost more to compensate is also out of line.

Not sure what either has to do with doubling the firepower of marines all the time because guardsmen are stuck with FRSRF as an order.

I was being sarcastic. Point is that Marines don't automatically have to be buffed because someone else has a gun that used to be similar but now has different stats.


Ok, then... your 'sarcasm' made it seem like you were agreeing with bat702.

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I'd much rather see other things get toned down rather than buffing bolters further. Nobody wins the power creep war.
   
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Making bolters Str 5 would imho be a good thing.
It would put them around equal with Admech and Necron guns, worse than pulse rifles and better than fleshborers.

I know that Necron and Admech guns used to be better versions of bolters, but it is also an evergreen meme than GW has never portrayed the bolter correctly.
   
 
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