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Don't know if this has been discussed before, but watching the reveals today, specifically the point where GW said they'd be reducing the amount of CP everyone gets, got me to thinking:

What if instead of dozens and dozens of strategems, GW took a page from AoS and replaced them with command abilities? One per army, one per subfaction, and one each for some units? Could this make things easier and remove the "gotcha" element that some have been complaining about?



(...or at minimum limit the strategems to 1 army wide, 1 for each subfaction, and 1 for specific units?)

Arcanis161 wrote:
Don't know if this has been discussed before, but watching the reveals today, specifically the point where GW said they'd be reducing the amount of CP everyone gets, got me to thinking:

What if instead of dozens and dozens of strategems, GW took a page from AoS and replaced them with command abilities? One per army, one per subfaction, and one each for some units? Could this make things easier and remove the "gotcha" element that some have been complaining about?



(...or at minimum limit the strategems to 1 army wide, 1 for each subfaction, and 1 for specific units?)

yes, that would make much more sense and would mean that the datasheet tells you what your unit can do. Not a box hidden away in the codex

Or rather look at LOTR where certain characters have more might / will / fate and have access to different heroic abilities on the table. That whole system takes place entirely within the context of what you bring to the table, and interacts with what is on the table; and not some abstract bonuses to statistics.

Aos has went from near zero unit specifgc ca's in new edition. Now it's generic and maybe some subfaction's have it as their "chapter bonus'

And now monsters have their special ones, and heroes. Which means that heroes that are or sit on monsters get a bucket load of extra stuff to do, just like units of some faction in w40k.

Those aren't ca's though.

Arcanis161 wrote:


What if instead of dozens and dozens of strategems, GW took a page from AoS and replaced them with command abilities? One per army, one per subfaction, and one each for some units? Could this make things easier and remove the "gotcha" element that some have been complaining about?

It would definitely make things easier; I wouldn't mind at all if they made that change to Matched play.

Keep it out of my Crusade though- I often use strat combinations as story hooks/ campaign ideas/ mission rewards etc. Even (and especially) some of the often ignored ones.

This is definitely a change I would like to see. A hell of a lot of stratagems are just filler to begin with, and many more should be wargear (i.e. bought per-model with points, not with CP during play).

It's worth noting that AoS does have a list of generic Command Abilities, in addition to the model-specific ones:
Rally - Pick one unit in the hero phase that is more than 3" away from any enemy units. Roll a D6 for each model in the unit that has been removed from play. For each unmodified roll of 6, bring a model back with full wounds. Do I hear fully-reviving Kurnoth Hunters or Stormfiends..? Yes. Yes I do. Rise up, dead man!
All-out Attack - One unit can add 1 to hits during combat or shooting phase.
All-out Defense - One unit can add 1 to saves during combat or shoting phase.
At the Double - One unit within range chosen to run treats the run roll as a 6. No more fishing for the six first and then deciding to use this, so be careful!
Forward to Victory - One unit within range can reroll a charge.
Inspiring Presence - One unit within range can ignore battleshock.
Unleash Hell - One unit within range can fire on a charging enemy unit within 6", but suffer a -1 penalty to hit them.
Redeploy - One unit within range can move d6" after an enemy approaches but doesn't charge them.
(^copied from 1d4chan because I'm lazy)

Tbh, I think 40k could do with taking a few other things from Age of Sigmar. I think having a pool of generic Warlord traits and artefacts would be a nice idea. Likewise, certain HQs making specific units in your army Troops/Core would seem a better system than the absolute mess of detachments 40k has to try and facilitate every possible army. The army/subfaction rules seem like less of a mess (though it might depend on the army, I'm by no means an expert on all of them). I also kinda like the hero-powers as being a little (but usually not overwhelming) boost for a single hero each turn, like healing a few wounds.

While AoS does have generic Warlord Traits and Relics, armies will rarely ever take them, since the ones available within their own book are better, typically. Notable exception being the Arcane Tome.

 Thadin wrote:
While AoS does have generic Warlord Traits and Relics, armies will rarely ever take them, since the ones available within their own book are better, typically. Notable exception being the Arcane Tome.

I don't necessarily expect them to be taken often. However, it might nevertheless be useful for narrative builds or when a faction/subfaction ends up with an awkward selection of artefacts.

 Thadin wrote:
While AoS does have generic Warlord Traits and Relics, armies will rarely ever take them, since the ones available within their own book are better, typically. Notable exception being the Arcane Tome.

Not really Master of Master, Arcane Tome, Flame weapon, Curse, are extremely popular for almost every army.

 vipoid wrote:
This is definitely a change I would like to see. A hell of a lot of stratagems are just filler to begin with, and many more should be wargear (i.e. bought per-model with points, not with CP during play).

It's worth noting that AoS does have a list of generic Command Abilities, in addition to the model-specific ones:
Rally - Pick one unit in the hero phase that is more than 3" away from any enemy units. Roll a D6 for each model in the unit that has been removed from play. For each unmodified roll of 6, bring a model back with full wounds. Do I hear fully-reviving Kurnoth Hunters or Stormfiends..? Yes. Yes I do. Rise up, dead man!
All-out Attack - One unit can add 1 to hits during combat or shooting phase.
All-out Defense - One unit can add 1 to saves during combat or shoting phase.
At the Double - One unit within range chosen to run treats the run roll as a 6. No more fishing for the six first and then deciding to use this, so be careful!
Forward to Victory - One unit within range can reroll a charge.
Inspiring Presence - One unit within range can ignore battleshock.
Unleash Hell - One unit within range can fire on a charging enemy unit within 6", but suffer a -1 penalty to hit them.
Redeploy - One unit within range can move d6" after an enemy approaches but doesn't charge them.
(^copied from 1d4chan because I'm lazy)

Implementing these directly into 40k would make about 90% of the faction specific stratagems obsolete. Which would be a good thing!

 Thadin wrote:
While AoS does have generic Warlord Traits and Relics, armies will rarely ever take them, since the ones available within their own book are better, typically. Notable exception being the Arcane Tome.

And master of magic/high priest which are seen quite a lot. Amulet of destiny still seeing use.

Don't even remember last time I saw tournament stormcast list without high priest warlord trait...

It's been ages since I've been anywhere near AoS, but this sounds great.

The best part of the AoS CP/command system:

1 - You get use it or lose it points each round as opposed to a large chunk at the beginning of the game. It makes each point feel more impactful as to when the right time to use it.

2 - Since the specialized command abilities are tied to models on the table instead of being tied to the faction rules, there is counter-play. If your opponent wants to build their army around a specific command ability, you can attempt to destroy that unit to prevent them from being able to use the command ability. Imagine in 40k, if you killed a space marine Lieutenant and they lost access to Trans-Human.

Having the rules represented on the table really makes the game more engaging tactically.

 Nazrak wrote:
It's been ages since I've been anywhere near AoS, but this sounds great.

I've been enjoying AoS more than 40k lately, but, you're still dealing with GW. I do like the Command Abilities, and the game of it's Command Points over 40k's current implementation. Use it or Lose it and rationing your points throughout the battleround encourages planning ahead. And one Command Ability maximum per phase on each Unit encourages gambling and weighing your options.

However, the game isn't without flaws. Current kings are Hero-Monster models (500+ point single model units in some cases) that utilize savestacking, or alphastrike shooting armies that bank on getting double turn. Not a fan of double turn altogether, but it can lead to some interesting decisions being made throughout a battleround... It also just ends games off a single roll off just as often. There's more issues with the game, largely around GW being GW. Codex Creep can rear it's ugly head, but it seems more random than 40k's current trend.

That's certainly better than the current system.

I like the idea of using CP's solely for army construction and unit requisition (i.e. pay CP's for detachments and to access certain units like special characters).

Strats as they work is fine as is. The problem is there are straight up offensive/defensive buff ones that make no sense. Why does one Cadian unit remember they are too tough to get wounded that often? Why does just one CSM unit remember they're Vets of the long war? Why does just one Aggressor unit become too tough against small arms? Why did just one Eldar unit get harder to hit?

Pure silliness.

Strats should work as an army compliment. Ones for deep striking and infiltrating are great. The one for Raven Guard to reroll charges against one particular target is great. Salamanders Self Sacrifice is great. Agents of Vect is great. Encircle the prey is great.

 vipoid wrote:
It's worth noting that AoS does have a list of generic Command Abilities, in addition to the model-specific ones:
Rally - Pick one unit in the hero phase that is more than 3" away from any enemy units. Roll a D6 for each model in the unit that has been removed from play. For each unmodified roll of 6, bring a model back with full wounds. Do I hear fully-reviving Kurnoth Hunters or Stormfiends..? Yes. Yes I do. Rise up, dead man!
All-out Attack - One unit can add 1 to hits during combat or shooting phase.
All-out Defense - One unit can add 1 to saves during combat or shoting phase.
At the Double - One unit within range chosen to run treats the run roll as a 6. No more fishing for the six first and then deciding to use this, so be careful!
Forward to Victory - One unit within range can reroll a charge.
Inspiring Presence - One unit within range can ignore battleshock.
Unleash Hell - One unit within range can fire on a charging enemy unit within 6", but suffer a -1 penalty to hit them.
Redeploy - One unit within range can move d6" after an enemy approaches but doesn't charge them.
(^copied from 1d4chan because I'm lazy)

I think if we had

-a limited core set of universal stratagems that everyone can use (like those),
-unit-specific stratagems presented on the datasheet, and
-faction-specific stratagems provided by certain characters (again, on their datasheets),

then that'd greatly streamline the basic/common/duplicative stratagems, make the remainder a lot easier to track (since they're tied to units in-play), and make your choice of leaders more impactful.

I wouldn't shed a single tear if they just completely removed stratagems from the game.

I think it is funny that AOS and 40k have so many identical mechanics with different names (because apparently having setting specific terminology is more important than rulesets being accessible); run/advance, combat/fight, bravery/leadership, battleshock/morale...

Yet 'Command Points' have the same term despite completely different mechanics.

gibbindefs wrote:
I wouldn't shed a single tear if they just completely removed stratagems from the game.

Or make them optional, like Tempest of War cards, potentially interesting bolt on extras. And focus on making a decent core war game with core factions adequately considered.

 jeff white wrote:

gibbindefs wrote:
I wouldn't shed a single tear if they just completely removed stratagems from the game.

Or make them optional, like Tempest of War cards, potentially interesting bolt on extras. And focus on making a decent core war game with core factions adequately considered.

They already are optional. If you don't battleforge your army, you only get access to the BRB strats. You get 1 CP per turn and I think you might get 3 to start regardless of game size.

Anyone who wants all strats to go away can already do it with the rules as written by taking one too many or one too few of any given battlefield role. The trick, so most people tell me, is finding likeminded players who are willing to do that.

PenitentJake wrote:

 jeff white wrote:

gibbindefs wrote:
I wouldn't shed a single tear if they just completely removed stratagems from the game.

Or make them optional, like Tempest of War cards, potentially interesting bolt on extras. And focus on making a decent core war game with core factions adequately considered.

They already are optional. If you don't battleforge your army, you only get access to the BRB strats. You get 1 CP per turn and I think you might get 3 to start regardless of game size.

Anyone who wants all strats to go away can already do it with the rules as written by taking one too many or one too few of any given battlefield role. The trick, so most people tell me, is finding likeminded players who are willing to do that.

Another option would be playing orks. Jot down ramming speed and hit 'em harder in your BRB and then just rip out the stratagem pages from your codex and toss them out. I promise, you won't be able to tell the difference.

EviscerationPlague wrote:
Strats as they work is fine as is. The problem is there are straight up offensive/defensive buff ones that make no sense. Why does one Cadian unit remember they are too tough to get wounded that often? Why does just one CSM unit remember they're Vets of the long war? Why does just one Aggressor unit become too tough against small arms? Why did just one Eldar unit get harder to hit?

Pure silliness.

Strats should work as an army compliment. Ones for deep striking and infiltrating are great. The one for Raven Guard to reroll charges against one particular target is great. Salamanders Self Sacrifice is great. Agents of Vect is great. Encircle the prey is great.

I think we're in agreement.

I'd like command points to be spent on things your commander or command infrastructure might be able to actually do during a battle.

I like the strats that give you deployment options, allow the promotion of units or access to better wargear. I also think the strats that represent an asset are great, for example the various battery powers that place a market and then deal damage to nearby units (I'm less keen on it being mortal wounds, which are massively overused and also get ignored by weird things). Strats that change the tempo off a game are also good, for example allowing you to fire overwatch or fight first, they seem like good examples of commanders ordering, inspiring or otherwise encouraging their troops to act.

You could easily do away with half the bloat in 40k by making Strategems chosen and prepped before the game starts (Think Wizard spells in DnD). Also make certain strats character or unit specific, requiring them to be there to use it. For instance, Auspex Scan would require a character or model with an ACTUAL AUSPEX. Or TransHuman should be locked to Primaris troops only. Stop giving everyone everything. Lock specific strategmems to specific characters or equipment. And make chosen Strategems paid for in a pre game thing, where each player gets to choose 4-5 from their total list, and has to show them to the opponent and declare their understanding of how they work. Then no "gotcha" hurt feelings on turn three.