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Made in us
Dakka Veteran





Lebanon NH


Greetings folks,

So like a lot of us: I have a plethora of missile launcher armed space marines and not a really good reason to use them. I find that when I'm putting together a devestator squad I'm either going to use melta, lascannon, or perhaps the old heavy-bolter standby. The problem that I see with the launcher isn't the Krak missiles (although they are weaker than all the other dedicated anti-armor) but rather the frag missiles. Honestly, I've never even used the frag missiles because marines tend to have a lot of other really good anti-horde and the frag are just... okay.

So how do we fix that?

My proposed fix is pretty simple: make it so that the frag missile auto hits for d6 str 4 shots. Keep the exact same profile, but simply make it a very long range version of the humble flamer. Think about that for a moment. Suddenly, your devastators have a reason to equip with launchers again! Suddenly, you get what the weapon is (probably) supposed to have: versatility! I don't even think it's OP, because aside from the devastator doctrine you are stuck without AP on the frag missiles anyway.

What do you think?
   
Made in us
Been Around the Block




Basically, by going to auto-hits you are just asking for 25-50% more hits. Hitting on 3+ means 50% more hits, using Signum is a 2+ BS so 25% more hits.

Why not make it a 3d3 weapon or d6+2/3 shots?

Of course, changing to Auto-hit also has knock-on effects with other armies. Now we can have Heavy Weapon Squad Imperial Guard move and auto-hit going from a 5+(because they moved) to auto, so +200% more hits.

Not to mention Cyclone Missile Launchers and Javelin Missile Launchers, and other double/triple missile launcher systems.

Another option: Instead of Heavy d6 for the Frag Missile, make it Assault d6 and drop the range a bit. That means you have a different use case for it. It gets buffed by Tactical Doctrine instead of Devastator, you can move and shoot it easier (even advance and still fire).
   
Made in gb
Lord of the Fleet






London

I don't get why this would be necessary, rocket launchers are pretty decent in my eyes. You have a good anti-armour weapon that can swap out to anti-horde if necessary.

If I had to suggest a change, I'd give the frag profile ignore cover, but like Kaied said, you'd then have to change all the profiles to fit.
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




I don't think there's an issue with Frag. Yeah it's gak and unreliable, but that's more an issue with Blast in general. If Blast was buffed it might be more viable.

What I'd rather see improved is Krak Missile (and Lascannon) damage. Change it to D6 minimum 3 damage. Make it more reliable and less swingy.
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare






^I agree with Jarms in that both the Krak and Las need boosts. But also agree that Frag in in need of something. The auto-hit is a pretty neat idea, honestly. I'd also be up for 2D3 rather than D6 shots, and/or a S boost.

I also think a Range boost would be neat. I know it doesn't matter for most games, but conceptually it'd be nice.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/05/09 17:07:36


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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




I'm not a fan of autohit. Reliability with a 2D3 shots would be better.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Jarms48 wrote:
I don't think there's an issue with Frag. Yeah it's gak and unreliable, but that's more an issue with Blast in general. If Blast was buffed it might be more viable.

What I'd rather see improved is Krak Missile (and Lascannon) damage. Change it to D6 minimum 3 damage. Make it more reliable and less swingy.

Agree with this. When I take a missile launcher, I expect to get a versatile weapon that can meaningfully threaten vehicles and hordes but not as well as more specialized weapons. Right now, the missile launcher is reasonably good at chipping in against gargoyles and guardsmen, but its lack of reliable output against vehicles that makes me nervous. It compares reasonably well to the lascannon (less AP, wounds T8 on a 4+ instead of a 3+), but there's a pretty big gap between it and the multi-melta. The range difference is a factor, but melta weapons feel like they can reliably take a meaningful bite out of the enemy where lascannons and krak missiles are kind of a gamble. Make them Dd6 (min 3), and you eliminate the risk of doing the same damage as a boltgun or heavy bolter.


ATTENTION
. Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




What chipping away are you doing at Infantry and Gargoyles? Even if you landed all six shots, that's MAYBE 3 dead.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





EviscerationPlague wrote:
What chipping away are you doing at Infantry and Gargoyles? Even if you landed all six shots, that's MAYBE 3 dead.

I mean, 3 dead is 30% of a 10-strong unit gone. Frag missiles aren't super impressive at clearing hordes, but as someone else pointed out, you usually have plenty of other small arms fire floating around. So when I need my missiles to kill hordes, I usually don't need them to do the job on their own. When I need my missiles to kill tanks/monsters, on the other hand, I don't necessarily have a ton of spare anti-tank floating around, and the points/slots I used to field those missiles could have gone towards more specialized anti-tank instead.

Basically, I'm okay with taking a versatile weapon that isn't as good at killing tanks as a specialized weapon, but only up to a point. I still need my versatile weapon to be effective enough against tanks to get the job done.

Edit: And admittedly, I'm partially thinking of missile launchers in the context of my craftworlders whose S4 missiles also have AP-1. That extra AP does make a difference.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/05/09 22:23:23



ATTENTION
. Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Wyldhunt wrote:
EviscerationPlague wrote:
What chipping away are you doing at Infantry and Gargoyles? Even if you landed all six shots, that's MAYBE 3 dead.

I mean, 3 dead is 30% of a 10-strong unit gone. Frag missiles aren't super impressive at clearing hordes, but as someone else pointed out, you usually have plenty of other small arms fire floating around. So when I need my missiles to kill hordes, I usually don't need them to do the job on their own. When I need my missiles to kill tanks/monsters, on the other hand, I don't necessarily have a ton of spare anti-tank floating around, and the points/slots I used to field those missiles could have gone towards more specialized anti-tank instead.

Basically, I'm okay with taking a versatile weapon that isn't as good at killing tanks as a specialized weapon, but only up to a point. I still need my versatile weapon to be effective enough against tanks to get the job done.

Edit: And admittedly, I'm partially thinking of missile launchers in the context of my craftworlders whose S4 missiles also have AP-1. That extra AP does make a difference.

Also keep in mind my math gave the benefit of somehow hitting all six shots. In reality it's only 1 or 2 dead.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





EviscerationPlague wrote:
Wyldhunt wrote:
EviscerationPlague wrote:
What chipping away are you doing at Infantry and Gargoyles? Even if you landed all six shots, that's MAYBE 3 dead.

I mean, 3 dead is 30% of a 10-strong unit gone. Frag missiles aren't super impressive at clearing hordes, but as someone else pointed out, you usually have plenty of other small arms fire floating around. So when I need my missiles to kill hordes, I usually don't need them to do the job on their own. When I need my missiles to kill tanks/monsters, on the other hand, I don't necessarily have a ton of spare anti-tank floating around, and the points/slots I used to field those missiles could have gone towards more specialized anti-tank instead.

Basically, I'm okay with taking a versatile weapon that isn't as good at killing tanks as a specialized weapon, but only up to a point. I still need my versatile weapon to be effective enough against tanks to get the job done.

Edit: And admittedly, I'm partially thinking of missile launchers in the context of my craftworlders whose S4 missiles also have AP-1. That extra AP does make a difference.

Also keep in mind my math gave the benefit of somehow hitting all six shots. In reality it's only 1 or 2 dead.

Sure. I still stand by my points. The blast profile doesn't get used very often, but it's nice to have when you need to finish clearing off an objective or on those rare occassions that you see a big horde unit across the table. One frag missile is basically 3 firstborn rapid firing bolters against that weird 20 strong kabalite warrior blob your friend is trying out.


ATTENTION
. Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
 
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Insectum7 wrote:
^I agree with Jarms in that both the Krak and Las need boosts. But also agree that Frag in in need of something. The auto-hit is a pretty neat idea, honestly. I'd also be up for 2D3 rather than D6 shots, and/or a S boost.


Personally, I'd rather see Blast buffed. Something like:
- Minimum Blast triggers on 5 - 10 models. Maximum Blast triggers on 11+.
- Blast works on each D3 or D6, rather than per weapon. D3 minimum Blast is reduced to 2, D6 minimum Blast remains 3.

What this means, for example a 4D3 Blast weapon will now get minimum 8 shots against a unit of 5 - 10 models. Rather than not benefiting from the Blast rule at all, as it's always getting minimum of 4 shots. Now Frag Missiles will always get minimum 3 shots on the largest MSU targets we see, which makes instantly more viable.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/05/09 23:57:21


 
   
Made in mx
Towering Hierophant Bio-Titan




Mexico

Buff hordes so 11+ units are more common and thus the blast rules become more relevant.

Kinda hard to make a blast profile work when its optimal target (large horde units) doesn't exist.
   
Made in au
Hurr! Ogryn Bone 'Ead!




Western Australia

Flakk missiles (an anti-flyer option additional to frag and krak) could be interesting for missile launchers. Or giving them a fixed BS of 2+ (aren't they supposed to be guided?). Or even giving them an option for other specialised warheads, like plasma or melta.

If they ever bring back armour facing, the missile launcher could also take inspiration from the real-life Javelin, and always attack vehicles' rear armour.

And a change to blast rules would be good too. I think the randomness of the D3/D6 system is a problem; it results in huge variability and makes weapons that should be reliable (e.g. flamers) unreliable.

A different system, covered here: essentially, blast weapons would make a number of hit rolls equal to half the model count of the unit they're targeting (rounding up). Or for large blast weapons, equal to the full number of models in the target squad. They'd be capped at a maximum number of attacks; for example, an Assault 6, Blast grenade launcher could only make 6 attacks maximum, even if firing at a huge unit. And there'd still be some randomness given the need to roll hits.



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Made in ca
Pestilent Plague Marine with Blight Grenade





The Frozen North

I would advocate for the addition of Flakk Missiles - make it a true all-rounder.

48" Heavy 2 S7 AP-1 D2. Each time an attack is made with this weapon against an AIRCRAFT unit, make 2 hit rolls instead of 1 and add 1 to both those hit rolls

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Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




I doubt GW would make it Heavy 2. That’s literally a better autocannon.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Isn't there still a flakk missile strat? The tricky thing about a flakk missile profile is that you have to make it more efficient than a krak missile against planes without also making it more efficient than krak against non-flyer vehicles. And ideally you do that while also making the flakk so much more efficient against flyers that it's worth the extra ink; a flakk profile wouldn't be all that worthwhile if it only did something like 0.25 more damage against planes than the krak missile.

But honestly, I'd be pretty happy if they just made krak min 3 damage or d6 + 2 or whatever. You should be getting a less reliable anti-tank weapon than a lascannon but with the added flexibility of having an anti-horde blast profile for those rare times you need them.


ATTENTION
. Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut



London

Well could have a tactical marine rule that if they roll a 6 to hit their weapon gets max shots or max damage.
   
Made in au
Hurr! Ogryn Bone 'Ead!




Western Australia

Flakk missiles could be BS2+ vs AIRCRAFT units and ignore Hard to Hit... weaker stats than a Krak, but maybe Heavy D3. Side note, Krak could have a BS buff of their own vs non-FLYER VEHICLE units.



"Authoritarian dogmata are the means by which one breeds a submissive slave, not a thinking, fighting soldier of humanity."
- Field-Major Decker, 14th Desert Rifles

 
   
Made in us
Stabbin' Skarboy





Give frag -1 ap maybe, then krak min 3 damage.

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Made in us
Confessor Of Sins





Tacoma, WA, USA

Here's a crazy idea. Don't make it better. Just make it cheaper.

A Missile Launcher would look much more attractive if it was 10 points like a Heavy Bolter rather than 15 points like a Lascannon or Plasma Cannon.
   
Made in au
Hurr! Ogryn Bone 'Ead!




Western Australia

Well that's just silly.



"Authoritarian dogmata are the means by which one breeds a submissive slave, not a thinking, fighting soldier of humanity."
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Made in us
Stabbin' Skarboy





If there’s a cheap but gak faction it shouldn’t be space marines.

"Us Blood Axes hav lernt' a lot from da humies. How best ta kill 'em, fer example."
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Longtime Dakkanaut




 alextroy wrote:
Here's a crazy idea. Don't make it better. Just make it cheaper.

A Missile Launcher would look much more attractive if it was 10 points like a Heavy Bolter rather than 15 points like a Lascannon or Plasma Cannon.


Whilst I absolutely agree this is an option, at this point I don't even think the lascannon is justified at 15 points anymore. Compared to the missile launcher you lose frag, and only gain +1 S and +1 AP over krak. Is that really worth 5 points?
   
Made in it
Waaagh! Ork Warboss




Italy

 alextroy wrote:
Here's a crazy idea. Don't make it better. Just make it cheaper.

A Missile Launcher would look much more attractive if it was 10 points like a Heavy Bolter rather than 15 points like a Lascannon or Plasma Cannon.


Make lascannon and plasma cannons more expensive instead. Maybe giving the former higher damage (D3+3). 15 points sounds about right for the current missile launcher in the hands of BS3+ dudes, and the lascannon profile has kinda become obsolete anyway.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/05/15 06:29:14


 
   
Made in gb
Space Marine Scout with Sniper Rifle




UK

I'd change the Missile Launcher to an 'Assault' weapon.

Frag: 1 shot, -1AP (if this hits, 2d3 wounds to models in enemy unit)
Krak: 1 shot, -2AP, 2D3 dmg (if vs vehicle, 2d3+1)

I'd probs half its range too. Now it fills a better role IMO, taken in infantry squads as a frontline, mobile, heavy hitting option.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/05/16 19:11:46


 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





 Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote:
If there’s a cheap but gak faction it shouldn’t be space marines.

I mean, you're not wrong, but also the current missile launcher rules aren't especially gak. It has fallen slightly behind due to power creep, but it still fulfills its anti-tank and anti-infantry roles reasonably well; just not as well as more specialized weapons. So in theory, making it more points-efficient but leaving its stats unchanged seems like it has merit.

But I'm still probably in favor of just raising its minimum damage somehow (D3 + d3, D2d3, Dd6 min 3, whatever) and maybe making frags AP-1. (I'm perfectly content with aeldari missile launchers' blast profile at AP-1.)

I'd change the Missile Launcher to an 'Assault' weapon.

Frag: 1 shot, -1AP (if this hits, 2d3 wounds to models in enemy unit)
Krak: 1 shot, -2AP, 2D3 dmg (if vs vehicle, 2d3+1)

That strikes me as too much of a departure from its current form. We probably don't need special rules based on target keywords (the bonus damage vs vehicles), no do we need missile launchers to become a weapon that you load and fire from the hip while sprinting. Even for astartes that seems out of character for the weapon. We also probably don't need the frag profile to somehow bypass the Toughness characteristic of the target. Wraithguard probably ought to be harder to harm than eldar guardians. You're pitching a lot of special rules for a weapon that probably just needs a modest stat boost maybe even just a price change.


ATTENTION
. Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
 
   
Made in ca
Sagitarius with a Big F'in Gun




Canada,eh

The profile I think it needs to be relevant at this point in 9.7th edition is :
Frag Assault D6 Blast S4 AP 0 Dmg D3 Ignores cover
Krak Heavy 1 S8 AP -2 Dmg 1+D6 If firing model didn't move, +1 to hit T6+

Flakk Heavy1 S7 AP-2 Dmg D3/vs AIRCRAFT 3+D3 If firing model didn't move, +2 to hit if AIRCRAFT




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Cadia

 Valkyrie wrote:
I don't get why this would be necessary, rocket launchers are pretty decent in my eyes.


It's necessary because missile launchers suck. Frag missiles do pathetic damage, barely more than a krak missile even against fairly weak targets, and krak missiles are just bad lascannons. In pretty much every scenario where you could take a missile launcher you'd rather have a lascannon instead.

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Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba




The Great State of New Jersey

Missile launchers suffer from being "jack of all trades, master of none". Their advantage is supposed to be that its a single weapon that is supposedly decently effective against both infantry and vehicles. Whereas if you took a lascannon you would have a weapon that was more effective against tanks but useless against infantry, and if you took a mortar you would have a weapon that is effective against infantry but not against tanks. Problem is that lascannons are already awful at hunting tanks, and the minor stat downgrade on missile launchers makes them considerably less capable to the point of uselessness, and the only advantage of the mortar over the missile launcher is its ability to fire indirectly, so the missile launcher is effectively wedged between two already kinda gakky weapons (mortars have utility to them, but thats not based on their profile, its based on a rule which doesn't make sense to apply to missile launchers) with no room for the missile launchers to really be viable.

You can't improve missile launchers without improving lascannons (GW has started taking steps in this direction but still hasn't committed to the idea that all lascannons should be D6+2) and mortars (which might be kinda OP) first. Otherwise, instead of missile launchers being the "flexible good enough solution" they become a two-in-one combo lascannon mortar, but better.

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