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Made in us
Prescient Cryptek of Eternity






Went to dig up the old MCU movie thread but after seeing three threads for specific movies I figured I’d just start one for this one.

So yeah, after stewing on it a couple days, my opinion is it is a good, entertaining movie, but it’s not a Great movie. It is the MCU’s horror movie and picks up a bunch of cliches from that genre and a ton of Sam Raimi-ness.

Was disappointed in Wanda. She ended Wandavision with the lesson it’s not ok to psychologically torture people to deal with your grief, and shows up in this movie with the belief that physical torture and murder of people to deal with your grief however is perfectly kosher. Of course at the end she relearns the same lessons from Wandavision.

Was a bit disappointed in America as well. I love that she got to still punch Star shaped holes in stuff, I just love the Star shaped holes, but was otherwise relegated to virtual MacGuffin status as actual hole punching is extremely limited and she’s used as little more than a means to an end. I hope we get to see more of her where she’s got more of her confidence and attitude and willingness to punch people instead of run away and hide.

The Illuminati are an early sign of something I’m worried about with the multiverse. Introducing iconic and fan loved characters just so we can kill them off (and quite brutally) for shock value but it’s not Our versions of the characters so it’s fine we can always bring them back again later. It cheapens the impact of both their deaths and even their appearance itself. I did love them going full hover chair X complete with the theme from the animated series and mind ripples though…

The post credit scene is both incredibly stupid and makes you wonder why you sat there so long for it but also one of the most glorious ones they’ve done.

 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut






I liked the bit where the writers just don't mention Vision at all, despite his death being the catalyst for Wandavision.

   
Made in us
Prescient Cryptek of Eternity






Wanda mentions him at least once that I recall. She references having to blow a hole thru his head herself and then that not even mattering. But yeah mostly she just cares about the kids now. I wonder who Other Kids dad is…

 
   
Made in gb
Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon






I think it was a solid way to introduce and frame America as a character. Her power is, so far as anyone knows, utterly unique. It’s a useful ability, but not as ubiquitous as others.

I really enjoyed it myself. I’d be very surprised if Wanda has snuffed it though. That Scarlett burst could be her going pop - but also her changing her mind and creating some space around her.

Much like Age of Ultron, which setup more than folk give it credit for, I suspect this might turn out to be a Bridging Movie.

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Made in us
Prescient Cryptek of Eternity






Oh, yeah, no way Wanda’s dead. We didn’t see a body. Plus there’s the delay from when she “died” to the Darkhold disintegrating to indicate she’d destroyed all of them everywhere all at once.

 
   
Made in it
Waaagh! Ork Warboss




Italy

This is by far the greatest MCU movie ever, IMHO. I wished I was going to watch a Sam Raimi's movie and I got a Sam Raimi's movie! Not just another dull MCU episode in which directors' skills don't count.

The movie was awesome and I disagree about the OP about the post credit scene. that scene was hilarious and I definitely preferred laughing for two seconds about legend Bruce Campbell than watching a useless preview on something that will happen years from now, as tradition.

Although Wanda is a character I deeply loved, and definitely one of my favorite ones within the MCU, I really hope her death is final though. Her progression was epic, and I wouldn't like marvel to try to redeem her somehow. Nor I'd like to see her returning as a villain, I feel like her story arc is perfect as it is.

And Elizabeth Olsen is also a great actress that I'd like to see way more often outside that character: in fact Wanda is the only character she has portrayed in a movie since 2018, and took a large chunk of her career since 2015!

 
   
Made in ca
Rampaging Carnifex





Toronto, Ontario

I hated it. It's certainly not unwatchable, but it was a huge disappointment. I loathe Sam Raimi's style, and finding out he didn't even watch Wandavision before doing this film explains a lot. Wanda basically retreads her entire story from the show, as if she didn't learn a damn thing about what happened in Westview. I don't even know where they go from here with her, because if they bring her back that would be pretty weak, but if they leave it as is it's such an unsatisfying conclusion to her story. Wanda went through so much, from losing her family, Strucker's experiments, unwittingly helping Ultron to try and end the earth, accidentally killing all those people in Johannesburg, having to kill Vision and still seeing Thanos get what he wanted, Westview and everything that happened there - she deserved a happy ending after slogging through so much super depressing crap. Ending it all with a tower falling on her is super weak.

Agreed with OP on bringing back characters just to kill them off. Xavier's inclusion is so pointless it beggars belief. I'm shocked Patrick Stewart even agreed to reprise the role after he gave such an incredible farewell to the character in Logan. I really hope they stop doing that.
   
Made in us
Battlefield Tourist




MN

I am just going to re-post what I said in another thread, but I have a few controversial things to add at the end.....

*****************

I left with the following three thoughts:

1. What genre is this aping? That is the key question to ask when thinking about an MCU film. It is clear that this was intended to be a the MCU "horror" entry. That colors a lot of what we see, and why it happens if you apply the tropes of horror movies to it.

2. This movie seems to tie in pretty closely with Wandavision and What IF and is perhaps the most self-referential of the Marvel movies. Will this be a trend, as we also see it in the Spider-Man movies. Once of the MCU's strengths was that each was a stand alone film in its own right. Has that formula changed and does it matter at this point?

3. Mother's Day is the worst day to release this movie as it is inherently anti-mother! The Mother is the villain, and her quest for her aborted kids turns her into a monster. The loss of mother's causes huge trauma in a different character. There are two themes of the impacts of motherhood in this film, and they are both bad!

Edit: Also, great to see a Bruce cameo, we just needed a Ted Raimi dying moment to make this complete. Also, this had the best final, end credits scene since Cap's PSA on patience.
********************************
The following is purposely vague........

Coming out when it did, it is really hard not to see this movie in light of the current US events around the SCOTUS. This movie very clearly has a lot of subtext around that very political issue, and I am not sure if it is intentional.

How could it not be intentional? Well, first off the movie it aping horror conventions. In such a genre, Motherhood and its attached emotions must be amplified into grotesque levels for the horror effect. Since everyone has a mother, the central horror is universal, deeply psychological, and strangely visceral at the same time.

Secondly, Horror movies are conventionally very conservative in nature. They are espousing that a break from tradition and conventional methods leads to horror. WE can also see that element in MoM.

In summary, this movie clearly has a political subtext that is hitting at the exact moment this issue has become prominent again. Bad timing? Probably. However, the aping of the typical Horror genre conventions lead to a clear position on the hot button issue of the day.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/05/11 15:14:00


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Made in it
Waaagh! Ork Warboss




Italy

 Easy E wrote:


3. Mother's Day is the worst day to release this movie as it is inherently anti-mother! The Mother is the villain, and her quest for her aborted kids turns her into a monster. The loss of mother's causes huge trauma in a different character. There are two themes of the impacts of motherhood in this film, and they are both bad!



To be fair Scarlet Witch is a wannabe mother, her children never existed in the first place. The real mother is a victim in the movie.

And it's actually the contact with the "Necronomicon" that turned her into a monster, in fact even the version of Strange who just used it once was corrupted (third eye as a proof of that) while the one who was guarding it became flat out evil.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Easy E wrote:


Coming out when it did, it is really hard not to see this movie in light of the current US events around the SCOTUS. This movie very clearly has a lot of subtext around that very political issue, and I am not sure if it is intentional.

How could it not be intentional?


Movie was shot long before those current events, like a year before, and it was written even longer before that.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/05/11 15:29:58


 
   
Made in us
Battlefield Tourist




MN

Well, that issue has been in the Zeitgeist since the 70's.



Yes, I figured Wanda's turn away from the end of Wandavision was caused by the Darkholde's corruption. However, the heel turn to those who watched Wandavision still did not make much sense.

I also saw the film with a few folks who were completely confused on who the illuminati were, as I heard them whispering amongst themselves. Are MCU movies going to continue to become more and more self-referential, this could be an issue; as that was a problem in previous DCEU films.


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Made in it
Waaagh! Ork Warboss




Italy

I had no idea about who the Illuminati were in the marvel universe and didn't find it an issue. I don't see why even ignoring who Xavier, Carter or any of the other characters were was an issue.

The only important thing is that they were basically the Avengers of their universe, and that was pretty clear. Anything else really doesn't matter.

I completely ignored who the guy sitting next to Strange at the wedding was (still ignoring that!) and even forgot about the whole Mordo character, since I haven't watch the first strange in ages (and hated at that time). Still not a problem with this movie.

Catching the references is never important. Typically it's just useless fanservice, and it's actually better if you don't recognize the "easter eggs". At least it's how it works for me, I never liked them.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/05/11 15:59:34


 
   
Made in ca
Gargantuan Gargant






I'm pretty much on the same page as creeping-deth. I feel like it wasn't really a Doctor Strange movie as much as it was just Wandavision 1.5, which includes all the issues from that series and worse tbh. The main selling points of the movie are the visuals, and even then there's a lot of missed opportunities. The whole fight at Kamar-Taj was underwhelming with how you have an ARMY of sorcerers and both the former and current Sorcerer Supremes who can nothing against her apparently. It's also baffling to me that the way they try and deal with her is by shooting magic arrows and super slow to reload cannons. I honestly feel like they'd be better off with guns given that they could have opened a bunch of portals that poured lava or other stuff on her that would have been way more effective.

There's a lot of narrative issues I'm not a fan of. Usually surrounding Wanda's choice of going after both Chavez as well as basically ignoring a big factor of her wanting a family to begin with in Wandavision, which is being with Vision but conveniently she seems to forget that she was love in with him and the kids were a product of said love but apparently only the kids matter now. Why wouldn't she just choose a universe where the kids are orphaned so she doesn't even have to kill the mom? If she wants kids, she doesn't even need to go to a different universe, she can literally just grab sperm from the sperm bank. Also, why send monsters after Chavez versus just approaching her? Chavez is pretty one-note as a character and with how Scarlet Witch could just mind-control/hallucinate her to do her bidding once she gets close enough, I don't see how it would be an issue. Another big one is how it follows the same problem that plagues MCU movies which is that no one can ever defeat the female characters except for themselves or by another female. We saw this with how Thor couldn't beat Hela and needed Surtur to be the Deus Ex Machina to kill her. Likewise with Red Guardian doing absolutely bupkiss to Taskmaster. We see it here again where Strange is outmatched and even with the Book basically gets his ass handed until Chavez "beats" her by showing her kids and having her commit sudoku, which really rushes to the ending and conveniently prevents her from having to address the fact that she murdered a bunch of people.

The Illuminati is also an incredible waste of cameos and it highlights how poorly written their inclusion was. Reed Richards, one of the smartest men alive, literally tells Wanda how to disable one of their own heavy hitters and doesn't even come prepared with remotely anything that would be useful against Wanda except stretching towards her? How did Captain Carter last longer than either of them? I also like how all the guys die with basically with little to no fight at all, whereas the girls have all the fight screentime. Professor X is probably the worst, since the most powerful telepath apparently can't take down someone with no mental defenses or preparation against a psychic attack. They did him so dirty.

Dr. Strange feels like a side character in his own movie and I really hate how underutilized his own magic is in this movie beyond shooting magic notes. Like seriously, where is the Strange we saw in Infinity War? I feel everything has gone downhill since then, I still laugh at how he was relegated to water boy duty in Endgame.

Overall, what a mess, I was really looking forward to seeing it properly introduce the Multiverse for Phase 4 for the movies and now I can see they clearly have no idea what direction they want to head in.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/05/12 04:07:27


 
   
Made in ca
Painting Within the Lines






I found it really odd that with 50 years of comics, villains and story arcs to draw from, this is the Dr. Strange movie we got.
It’s the second MCU film I’ve seen since Endgame (No Way Home was the other), and I’ve come to the conclusion that it’s been on a downward spiral ever since Endgame.
It’s almost like they’re not sure what to do, or even what they really want to do with the franchise, and just keep plodding along hoping to figure out what the over arching story or plot is. How and why do these movies connect?
What was the point of WandaVision when we have this movie?
And if these two movies are what I’m hearing folks rave about from the phase 4, then I don’t have high hopes for anything going forward.

Dr Strange 2 was ok at best.
If they wanted to do a fan service for Strange fans, then where’s Mephisto? Where’s Mordo? Why have we only seen Dormammu from the Dr Strange comic library? I felt the Illuminati were a wasted lip service especially when they just kill them all off in a matter of seconds.
I mean, these people defeated Thanos and they can’t last longer than 30 seconds against Scarlet Witch?

This movie has the problem of too much Feige and not enough Raimi.
   
Made in us
Dominating Dominatrix






Phase 4 is like phase 1. These movies are not full of connections. Iron Man 1 was just an Iron Man movie. Dr Stange 2 is just a Dr Strange movie. It's introducing characters to be pulled into bigger over all plots later. America Chavez is here now for the obvious list of Champions they are putting into this.

You will definitely feel disappointed looking for the bigger over all story at his point since they are not telling that bigger over all story yet.


These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
 
   
Made in ca
Painting Within the Lines






 Lance845 wrote:
Phase 4 is like phase 1. These movies are not full of connections. Iron Man 1 was just an Iron Man movie. Dr Stange 2 is just a Dr Strange movie. It's introducing characters to be pulled into bigger over all plots later. America Chavez is here now for the obvious list of Champions they are putting into this.

You will definitely feel disappointed looking for the bigger over all story at his point since they are not telling that bigger over all story yet.


This movie was not a Dr Strange movie though.
It was another entry of the MCU with Dr Strange in it.
I was expecting a Dr Strange movie and that’s why I’m disappointed.
It has nothing to do with connecting the movies but instead finding purpose for the story arcs.
At least at the end of Iron Man we had an idea, inkling and hint of what was to come. This has none of that. The post credits didn’t seem like it was hinting at much of anything besides another MCU movie….

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/05/14 15:45:10


 
   
Made in gb
Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon






 Ghool wrote:
 Lance845 wrote:
Phase 4 is like phase 1. These movies are not full of connections. Iron Man 1 was just an Iron Man movie. Dr Stange 2 is just a Dr Strange movie. It's introducing characters to be pulled into bigger over all plots later. America Chavez is here now for the obvious list of Champions they are putting into this.

You will definitely feel disappointed looking for the bigger over all story at his point since they are not telling that bigger over all story yet.


This movie was not a Dr Strange movie though.
It was another entry of the MCU with Dr Strange in it.
I was expecting a Dr Strange movie and that’s why I’m disappointed.
It has nothing to do with connecting the movies but instead finding purpose for the story arcs.
At least at the end of Iron Man we had an idea, inkling and hint of what was to come. This has none of that. The post credits didn’t seem like it was hinting at much of anything besides another MCU movie….


On this….and a partial agreement I suppose, but also a disagreement…

The MCU was previously always building toward Thanos. We saw the Infinity Gems introduced and at least partially explained. We saw glimpses of Thanos himself. We had the overall team dynamic forged and refined. And we always knew that was going to be the pay off. And for my money, it was the greatest pay off in cinema history.

But so far as I can tell? Nothing else was really teased until Captain Marvel, which introduced the Skrulls who do keep popping up here and there, with a Secret Invasion series to come in the not too distant future.

To the best of knowledge (which as always is self admittedly limited), we don’t really know what they’re working toward this time. Multiverse seems to be playing a part. And given they now have X-Men and F4 back in the Disney Stable, we can speculate that’s how they’ll come in - but then, what we’ve seen of the multiverse so far suggests not, given the inherent hazards demonstrated in No Way Home and Multiverse of Madness.

Loki suggests the new Thanos may prove to be Kang The Conqueror - but for now that’s purely speculation.

And that to me is the greatest flaw of Phase 4. We’re seeing the fallout of End Game, which I for one am enjoying. It’s nice to know such a momentous event (well, two momentous events) aren’t just being moved past. But we don’t really know where it’s taking us, which can (and arguably has) left it feeling more disjointed and disposable than Phases 1-3.

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Made in ca
Rampaging Carnifex





Toronto, Ontario

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
[
Loki suggests the new Thanos may prove to be Kang The Conqueror - but for now that’s purely speculation.


I'm really hoping this is actually what they're doing. The Loki series was excellent and Jonathan Majors was a real joy to watch as Kang. You could tell he had fun playing the character.


We’re seeing the fallout of End Game, which I for one am enjoying.


Same. I love that phase 4 keeps reminding us just how momentous an event Infinity War was, in a lot of interesting ways too. Seeing how Monica come back in Wandavision was neat, and Jolena's dusting in Hawkeye was so well done.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




I know Scarlet Witch's current plotline is heavily inspired by House of M, but it's sexist.

Thor lost his mother, father, planet, friends, and brother in that order. Also found out that he had a secret sister who helped his father brutally conquer several worlds. Also found out his brother is actually adopted and a Frost Giant. Then he failed to stop Thanos. How does he handle this trauma? In stereotypical male fashion, he drinks, gets fat, and games all day apparently.

What about Wanda? She has childhood trauma, fought the Avengers, lost her brother, is responsible for the deaths of innocents, killed her lover only to have Thanos undo it and get the Mind Stone. How does she react? Well...clearly she has a complete break from reality and mind controls a small town and imagines herself in a marriage with Vision with two children. Because of couse that's what she wants. She then discovers that it is all in her head, but then decides to tear across time and space in search of two children that she made up? C'mon man. It's like how Thanos courting Death is a story that only works in comic format so it was changed to an issue of resources.

The MCU has never had great writing, but they had good worldbuilding, particularly in the buildup to the first Avengers movie and then Thanos. Now the cracks are starting to show.

The only way we can ever solve anything is to look in the mirror and find no enemy 
   
Made in gb
Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon






Difference is Wanda has the power to reshape reality.

That adds a whole new dimension to the mix. Thor was the Prince of Asgard. The King in waiting. He’s been raised and trained in what that might mean. He also had friends around him.

Wanda….didn’t. Remember, in Civil War she was under house arrest, with really only Vision looking out for her. She’s someone who, outside of her powers, really never had anything - and only had what little she had taken away.

I’m not sure her gender is a significant part of that.

I’d like to have seen some fallout between her and Tony post End Game. After all, it was Tony’s love for his daughter that meant nobody simply threw a Reset Switch - which was entirely possible. His arguable selfishness (but also arguably wisdom, as they knew for a fact once they returned the stones to their rightful place in the timeline, the loop would be set forever more) is the core cause of all of this mess. The displaced, the dispossessed.

One thing I really liked and felt suitably understated was the other Doctor calling Strange out (and setting up his decisions later in the movie), because whilst he came back, his two Cats were already dead. If your pets are all you had, that’s gonna suck as much as losing family members.

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Made in it
Waaagh! Ork Warboss




Italy

Also don't forget that Thor always had a childish mentality like many warrior princes, and never really grew up. His story arc is coherent with the character, so was Wanda's. They're actually my two favorite MCU characters now.

And I loved how Wanda remarked she and Strange (not to mention Tony Stark) have been treated differently by the american society, because she's a woman, a foreigner and not wealthy. To be not sympathetic about her really says a lot. People were sympathetic towards Killmonger, who was much worse (but male and black) and not under the influence of a magical book that instantly corrupts souls.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/05/15 06:47:53


 
   
Made in ca
Hangin' with Gork & Mork






 Blackie wrote:
People were sympathetic towards Killmonger, who was much worse (but male and black) and not under the influence of a magical book that instantly corrupts souls.


Their motivations were very different so I don't think proffering that it was simply their sex that made people more sympathetic to one or the other is accurate.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/05/15 11:43:30


Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
 
   
Made in ca
Gargantuan Gargant






 Blackie wrote:
Also don't forget that Thor always had a childish mentality like many warrior princes, and never really grew up. His story arc is coherent with the character, so was Wanda's. They're actually my two favorite MCU characters now.

And I loved how Wanda remarked she and Strange (not to mention Tony Stark) have been treated differently by the american society, because she's a woman, a foreigner and not wealthy. To be not sympathetic about her really says a lot. People were sympathetic towards Killmonger, who was much worse (but male and black) and not under the influence of a magical book that instantly corrupts souls.


I dunno what you're talking about, personally I was never a big fan of Killmonger and most people I talked to had very little sympathy for him as a character since he was basically just a hypocrite that was using past injustices as an excuse to grab power (like pretty much every dictator/aspiring despot). Though if you're saying in terms of people within the show, Killmonger really only got "sympathy" as far as his dad being unknowingly murdered and being of a royal bloodline while his expansionist mentality was shared by some of the less conservative Wakandan leaders, so really it's more of an internal cultural/political thing than anything to do with their race or sex. Even then I'd say it's a stretch to say they had sympathy versus feeling obligated out of tradition that Killmonger exploited primarily through T'challa not wanting bad blood between one another.

It's hard to be sympathetic towards Wanda when she held an entire town hostage and effectively tortured them with basically no consequences (no, losing "not-Vision" and "fake kids really doesn't count because that'd be like saying acknowledging that your imaginary friends aren't real counts as a sacrifice) because Rambeau gave her a free pass. It has nothing to do with her being a woman or of her socioeconomic status. Her going on a murder spree shortly afterwards, even if she's being corrupted by a magical macguffin, doesn't mean much when it doesn't address a lot of the plot hole issues of wanting a new set of children and basically resets her story arc from Wandavision for no good reason.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/05/15 20:21:23


 
   
Made in gb
Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon






 Grimskul wrote:
 Blackie wrote:
Also don't forget that Thor always had a childish mentality like many warrior princes, and never really grew up. His story arc is coherent with the character, so was Wanda's. They're actually my two favorite MCU characters now.

And I loved how Wanda remarked she and Strange (not to mention Tony Stark) have been treated differently by the american society, because she's a woman, a foreigner and not wealthy. To be not sympathetic about her really says a lot. People were sympathetic towards Killmonger, who was much worse (but male and black) and not under the influence of a magical book that instantly corrupts souls.


I dunno what you're talking about, personally I was never a big fan of Killmonger and most people I talked to had very little sympathy for him as a character since he was basically just a hypocrite that was using past injustices as an excuse to grab power (like pretty much every dictator/aspiring despot).

It's hard to be sympathetic towards Wanda when she held an entire town hostage and effectively tortured them with basically no consequences (no, losing "not-Vision" and "fake kids really doesn't count because that'd be like saying acknowledging that your imaginary friends aren't real counts as a sacrifice) because Rambeau gave her a free pass. It has nothing to do with her being a woman or of her socioeconomic status. Her going on a murder spree shortly afterwards, even if she's being corrupted by a magical macguffin, doesn't mean much when it doesn't address a lot of the plot hole issues of wanting a new set of children and basically resets her story arc from Wandavision for no good reason.


Trouble with Wanda is……how do you punish her? Nobody had a clear way to imprison her against her will. Like….at all. And it’s made clear in the show she didn’t realise what she was doing, so deep was her grief. Multiverse is an extension of that grief.

Nobody punished her. But then….nobody exactly tried to help her. She was left alone with her grief. That’s…not conducive to someone recovering from trauma.

The Darkhold, if we look at it in 40K terms is a daemonic item, which exploited her mental wounds. Whisper “but what if you could find your children…I can show you how”, and went from there.

Hence America’s solution was the best one.

I still suspect we’ve not seen the last of Wanda. That apparent squish related explosion could be her protecting herself from the rubble for all we know.

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Made in us
Terrifying Doombull




And it’s made clear in the show she didn’t realise what she was doing

No, the show said the opposite. Explicitly so mid-way through when she walks out of the Hex, tells the Feds to feth off and goes back to her little control fantasy. She started ignorant of what she was doing, but she didn't stay that way... and it didn't matter to her when she realized what she was doing. It was real fun watching the mothers and children whimper and silently scream at the edge of town, knowing she was linked into their heads.

But then….nobody exactly tried to help her. She was left alone with her grief.

I mean, sure, if you ignore the trio of side characters trying to help her and most of whom got mind-controlled for their trouble. And her created vision of Vision, who tried (and failed) to reason with her.

She also actively hid from anyone who knew her and could have helped her. People didn't remember the town, remember? Even while standing in front of the sign for the town.

And at the end, when its all over and her Named Character victim forgives her, does she seek help, or company? Nope, she willingly isolates herself again. Learning nothing from the experience, we get this... inflicting trauma on other people masquerading as grief (so it can be easily 'forgiven,' without resolving or addressing the cycle of abuse), take 2.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/05/15 20:37:27


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Voss more or less nailed what I wanted to say. There was POTENTIAL for a proper resolution for her arc with how they were building it up, but the way they ended off Wandavision and then tied in MoM basically writes off any opportunity for her to resolve what she did in Wandavision or how others within the superhero community react in finding out what she did (or hell, at least have her try and find the rebuilt/another Vision again, really bizarre that she seems to forget Vision exists when he was a major fixture in Wandavision). Having her basically be evil again thanks to a magical macguffin is poor writing and effectively reverses any potential character development she has. It's basically the equivalent of having Tony going back to becoming an arms dealer in Iron Man 3 and arguing that his new arc reactor and his PTSD from Avengers made him start selling Stark tech as weaponry again so he can have the world armed with Iron Man suits against an alien invasion, which would defeat the whole point of the first movie having him realize the harm he was causing from selling weapons.
   
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I disagree.

It’s not until quite late on in WandaVision we find out Wanda is the Scarlett Witch, and what that means. Nobody else knew about that at the time. And it doesn’t help we had Agatha needling away at her.

Ultimately, Wanda is a victim, whatever we think of her subsequent actions.

She loses her family, and is then experimented upon.

She’s taken in by Ultron (literally and metaphorically), and loses her brother (her sole remaining family member) as a consequence.

Then we see her placed under house arrest before the Sokovia Accord is even properly in place, with just Vision really standing by her. And why? Because she did her best to contain an exploding terrorist. She didn’t set off the bomb. She didn’t cause Crossbones to set it off. She did what she could to prevent it going off in a market place, which still would’ve damaged the same bloody building,

Hawkeye comes along and recruits her.

Later, we see her and Vision trying to just be alone, and live their lives as best they can. But….nope. Not long after, she has to blow a hole in Vision’s head, only to see that sacrifice undone, and Vision die again at the hands of Thanos, before she’s snapped out of existence.

Then she comes back, nearly has her revenge. And when Thanos is defeated minutes after, he gets dusted.

Her entire life has been trauma after trauma after trauma. Other than her early childhood, she’s been used and exploited for the gain of others. And folk wonder why she’s a bit Radio Rental? Why her actions don’t necessarily make sense to us, who (and I genuinely mean this) haven’t had even a fraction of her life trauma?

The poor woman just couldn’t catch a break. Like….at all.

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Pfizer vaccine administered 13:40pm 18 Feb 21. Still no second head. Second jab 13:35pm 6 May 2021. At the Masonic Hall. 
   
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Gargantuan Gargant






 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I disagree.

It’s not until quite late on in WandaVision we find out Wanda is the Scarlett Witch, and what that means. Nobody else knew about that at the time. And it doesn’t help we had Agatha needling away at her.

Ultimately, Wanda is a victim, whatever we think of her subsequent actions.

She loses her family, and is then experimented upon.

She’s taken in by Ultron (literally and metaphorically), and loses her brother (her sole remaining family member) as a consequence.

Then we see her placed under house arrest before the Sokovia Accord is even properly in place, with just Vision really standing by her. And why? Because she did her best to contain an exploding terrorist. She didn’t set off the bomb. She didn’t cause Crossbones to set it off. She did what she could to prevent it going off in a market place, which still would’ve damaged the same bloody building,

Hawkeye comes along and recruits her.

Later, we see her and Vision trying to just be alone, and live their lives as best they can. But….nope. Not long after, she has to blow a hole in Vision’s head, only to see that sacrifice undone, and Vision die again at the hands of Thanos, before she’s snapped out of existence.

Then she comes back, nearly has her revenge. And when Thanos is defeated minutes after, he gets dusted.

Her entire life has been trauma after trauma after trauma. Other than her early childhood, she’s been used and exploited for the gain of others. And folk wonder why she’s a bit Radio Rental? Why her actions don’t necessarily make sense to us, who (and I genuinely mean this) haven’t had even a fraction of her life trauma?

The poor woman just couldn’t catch a break. Like….at all.


I think we might be talking past each other accidentally. By no means am I saying that Wanda has a charmed life and that she's an ungrateful wacko lashing out against the world for perceived slights against her. She definitely has a rough upbringing and life throughout her story arc. However, the problem is that the idea that her having "victim" status somehow gives her a free pass at effectively doing whatever she wants, particularly in a way that actively harms innocents that have nothing to with her source of trauma, is really bad messaging and implies that atrocities can be justified based on how much someone has sufferered. It would be one thing if they effectively addressed her actions as deplorable, but they handwave it not once, but TWICE. Once when Monica Rambeau says, "Nobody will know what you sacrificed" (cringe worthy moment there, imagine saying that to a mentally ill person that kidnapped and tortured innocent people to look like their family) and then again in MoM, when Strange basically says he doesn't care about what she did at Westview. She never tries to right her wrong, she never gets to see tangible consequences or have an actual talk with others about her coming to terms with her trauma or any sort of remorse. You can't have your cake and eat it too. Either full on cast Wanda as a tragic villain type character or actually address her struggle without basically giving her free passes on her actions. What's worse is that she just "kills" herself at the end of MoM, which is a huge cop out to try and weedle her way of dealing with her villainous actions.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/05/15 21:28:37


 
   
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But how does she right that wrong? What could she possibly do to make things up to the folk of Westview?

They were rightly terrified of her. To go “Galaxy brain”, if the folk of Westview started to find forgiveness for her, could they know for certain it wasn’t her making them forgive her? Just a little tweak here, and the heat is off. It’s certainly well within her capabilities.

And who was there that could punish her? We saw what she did to Thanos. And there, she was taking her time, because she wanted to see him suffer before he died. In theory, she could’ve just squelched him in the blink of an eye, such as focussing the field thing on his bonce and giving it a good old squeeze.

Everyone in her life, apart from Vision, wanted to use her and her abilities. Sure, Rambeau was trying to talk her down in a positive way. But how many others started that way, only to later weaponise her?

I’ve just put Civil Waron again, because it’s been a while since I’ve seen it. To add to her trauma? It was her attempt to stop Crossbones killing Cap and who knows how many innocents that was the last straw?

Go and watch that scene again. Compare the scenes of devastation shown during the Accord Briefing, contrast and compare them all to that building being partially blown up. That? That was the step too far? I mean it still killed people, but it’s categorically not on her. Yet….that was the straw that broke the camel’s back? How do you think that would make you feel? What would that do to an already pretty damaged young woman?

Cap can send colossal Helicarriers crashing from the sky. Tony can invert a flying land mass’ engines. The Avengers can wreck a significant part of New York (albeit all three, just like Lagos, being the lesser of evils had they not intervened). But Wanda tried to stop a lunatic blowing up a market and that’s the crossing of the line?

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But how does she right that wrong? What could she possibly do to make things up to the folk of Westview?

Literally almost anything positive. She could try... something.
She's got reality warping powers, and instead of trying to fix even the smallest thing... she feths off and leaves them in their mental rubble. Indeed, we're left with the message that she was _right_ and she was the one who sacrificed and suffered, not them.

That's insane, and that's before you get into the 'super-deep' relationship (they wander off to Scotland to.. have sex? Yay?) with her robot boyfriend and then their fake children that she creates. I am very moved by these 'deep and meaningful' relationships that bookend a whole lot of CGI effects. But they were in the comics, so they have to go in, I guess.

As for the rest... Civil War is bad. Sorry. Bad premise, bad reactions, dumb as feth choices, bad resolution. That the 'straw' is only skin deep and superficial goes with the rest of the film.

Going back a bit...
It’s not until quite late on in WandaVision we find out Wanda is the Scarlett Witch, and what that means. Nobody else knew about that at the time.

Here's the thing. The Scarlet Witch title... doesn't matter. They throw that in because that's her comic superhero name, for the audience to recognize it. It has no real meaning or effect. Agatha can yadda, yadda that as much as she likes, but she's the evil necromancer pulling life force out of her mom's friends or whatever. Because by existing and providing a spectacle fight at the end, Wanda's crimes don't matter anymore.

She loses her family, and is then experimented upon.

She’s taken in by Ultron (literally and metaphorically), and loses her brother (her sole remaining family member) as a consequence.

Well... yes, she loses her family. The pre-Wandavision version of that sounded more like she & Pietro volunteered, though. They wanted power for vengeance on Stark, choosing the cycle of violence. (Which could have been handled well, but was sort of handwaved, as was their initial heel-face turn).

They're not taken in by Ultron, they're trying to use him, and find out that he's plans are a lot bigger than just 'crush Stark/Avengers.' Losing Pietro as a consequence... eh. That doesn't particularly work for me. Partly its how terribly AoU is set up for action CGI, but 'superfast guy chooses to be shot rather than carry people out of line of fire' was a weird thing to be asked to swallow.

But all that makes Wandavision and then MoM even worse. She's reset again and again to making the same bad decisions for bad reasons.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/05/15 22:52:47


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Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

Wanda was never a victim.

Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
 
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