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Made in ca
Secretive Dark Angels Veteran



Canada

Goonhammer has a good (if depressing) synopsis of the weekend - looks like another new Codex is dominating.

https://www.goonhammer.com/competitive-innovations-its-not-a-bug-its-a-feature/

Nids took the top 5 placings at one major US GT (from an ITC perspective - there are some oddities with placings). They won all but one other GT over the weekend, coming in 2nd in the one event that they didn't win. It looks like Leviathan Double Malceptor/Double Harpy is the standard with John Lennon going a different direction with Kraken Ravenors and Pyrovores (but don't worry, it had a Malceptor).

This could just be "new hotness" that the world will quickly figure out how to counter, but I doubt it. GW will have to act, which will adjust things but also further erode confidence in new books.

It would seem that Malceptors need a nerf-bat at a minimum and the Harpy needs a look as well. Mortal Wounds are a fun mechanic and all (well, not really), and the Malceptor takes the MW concept to a whole new plane of existence. Lennon's list may just be a good list with a good pilot - maybe "nothing to see here" and armies are allowed to win GTs without getting immediately nerfed. Still, this level of dominance out of the gate is problem, although not an uncommon one this past year.

So get those Malceptors on the table before they get nerfed!

All you have to do is fire three rounds a minute, and stand 
   
Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Cardiff

Oh look. Competitive players spammed stuff from a Codex pre-FAQ… ensuring nerfs for everyone. Yawn. Competitive is a curse, haha.

 Stormonu wrote:
For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
 
   
Made in pl
Fixture of Dakka




Only the tyranid codex is soo good, that in a casual setting, even if you take no hapries and maybe a single or even zero, malaceptors, and instead go for the other monsters. You end up with an army that is way over the avarge powerful, while being way under the avarge costed for what it can do.

And expecting tyranid players of any form of playing to not bring monsters. Is a bit like expecting tau players to not take tau suits, or marine players bring stuff in power armour.

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Not really sure what nerfs you'd apply because there's power all through the book. You can easily pivot to something else if they stuck say 30-50 points on Maleceptors and Harpies.

Its this problem of [undercosted datasheets] and [incredibly powerful buff architecture].

GW probably need to take a pruning knife to the chapter bonuses, synaptic imperatives and stratagems.
   
Made in pl
Fixture of Dakka




Well say the points hikes on harpies and malacapters mean -150pts for the tyranid army. Would it be substentially weaker, not weak just weaker, with one less carnifex in it? Because that was the problem with DE points hikes, where just one extra court got cut, and how changes to eldar inari looked in 8th ed.

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
Made in au
Repentia Mistress





Near as I can tell, main malceptor problem comes from stratagems allowing extra psychic cast. Simple fix. Kill that stratagem. Malceptor is fine. Stratagems ( as usual) breaks things.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Karol wrote:
Well say the points hikes on harpies and malacapters mean -150pts for the tyranid army. Would it be substentially weaker, not weak just weaker, with one less carnifex in it? Because that was the problem with DE points hikes, where just one extra court got cut, and how changes to eldar inari looked in 8th ed.


The issue is tipping points. Lets say a hike of 30-50 points per model brought Maleceptors and Harpies down to "Balanced" rather than "good".

In practice competitive Tyranid lists would just stop including Maleceptors and Harpies (or maybe have one Maleceptor max etc). So rather than spending the 150~ points they'd spend them on other things in the book. If those options were inferior, you'd expect Tyranid win % to fall. But if they aren't, it wouldn't really matter. You just sidestep the nerf.

The equivalent for DE would be how there was the idea that aside from mass DT liquifier wracks, the Covens section wasn't very good. You really wanted to sink your points in raiders, wyches and incubi etc.
Now we don't have a perfect scenario - because when GW finally hiked the points of raiders, wyches and incubi, they also slightly decreased the points on most covens stuff. (Talos down 10, Grots down 5 etc).
But suddenly (and tbh, I think there's some evidence DE list construction was creeping this way already even before the changes) - the Covens stuff was the best in the game. But those units had been there for months. The fact they had been say 50~ points worse off doesn't really explain this rags to riches rise. You just need some top players to pilot and publicise it.
   
Made in dk
Pyro Pilot of a Triach Stalker






If you play against Tyranids just cheat. At the end of your turns just tell your opponent you'll be adding 5VP to your score to make up for the handicap your opponent is getting by playing a busted faction. If they laugh at your "joke" give them an unnerving stare while flaring your nostrils and then say you'll add another 5 VP.
 Giantwalkingchair wrote:
Near as I can tell, main malceptor problem comes from stratagems allowing extra psychic cast. Simple fix. Kill that stratagem. Malceptor is fine. Stratagems ( as usual) breaks things.

Better Stratagems just means you're more likely to take 0 or 1 instead 0 or 3 and I don't think it's a bad thing that people are encouraged to take 1 instead of 3 of some units. Points just need to be hiked for popular Tyranids units.
   
Made in gb
Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon






Could this be the double whammy of New Codex Hotness folk are still learning to counter, and New Codex Hotness Where The Army Sucked Before So Folk Just Aren’t Familiar With Fighting If?

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Pfizer vaccine administered 13:40pm 18 Feb 21. Still no second head. Second jab 13:35pm 6 May 2021. At the Masonic Hall. 
   
Made in pl
Fixture of Dakka




No that is just very good rules combined with undercosted models.

Just like with harlis, there was no way to "adapt" to a 90pts void weaver.

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
Made in gb
Tail-spinning Tomb Blade Pilot




UK

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Could this be the double whammy of New Codex Hotness folk are still learning to counter, and New Codex Hotness Where The Army Sucked Before So Folk Just Aren’t Familiar With Fighting If?


No.

Point for point the book has NUMEROUS undercosted datasheets combined with some quite frankly absurd numerical values (yeah what's up here's a 3 shot assault Relic that is S12 ap5 and D5 because why not) and stratagems that have obviously not been thought through at all. The absurdity of what a Flyrant can do for damage for sub-200 points while also being essentially free from reprisal is something that points alone wont fix and isn't something people will "get better" at countering to any reasonable degree.

Then we have a system of being able to tailor your chapter tactics pre-game to your opponent, which is very fluffy because it fits with Nids hyper-adaptive idea, but a lot of these individual bonuses are just straight up stronger than what other factions get as part of locked-in unchangeable abilities.

Essentially you have an army that is monstrously killy, monstrously tanky, absurdly mobile and also wildly undercosted on basically everything that isn't a gaunt/gant. There are no real weaknesses to exploit for most armies. At least Craftworlds are still relatively squishy and not all that cheap to make up for their killiness and mobility.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/05/12 13:17:33


 
   
Made in us
Blackclad Wayfarer





Philadelphia

Other things would need to get nerfed to see gaunt swarm or heavy little bug lists back in action


I assume they'll have a 1 page FAQ hotfix about the Maleceptor cast and might change some points by 10-30 here and there. Nothing too wild.

Remember this Tyranid Codex has to last us another 2-3 editions until 2030... let it be powerful so it lasts for years

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/05/12 13:33:05


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Made in dk
Pyro Pilot of a Triach Stalker






 Stevefamine wrote:
Other things would need to get nerfed to see gaunt swarm or heavy little bug lists back in action


I assume they'll have a 1 page FAQ hotfix about the Maleceptor cast and might change some points by 10-30 here and there. Nothing too wild.

Remember this Tyranid Codex has to last us another 2-3 editions until 2030... let it be powerful so it lasts for years

Now you have things to take away again
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Oh look. Competitive players spammed stuff from a Codex pre-FAQ… ensuring nerfs for everyone. Yawn. Competitive is a curse, haha.
Yep. Can't wait for my units to be nerfed before I've ever had a chance to try them out thanks to tournament players.


Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka







 Stevefamine wrote:
Remember this Tyranid Codex has to last us another 2-3 editions until 2030... let it be powerful so it lasts for years

[Citation required] - especially after 8th and 9th so far...

2021 Plog - Here we go again... - my fifth attempt at a Dakka PLOG

My [url=https://pileofpotential.com/dysartes]Pile of Potential[/url - updates ongoing...

Gamgee on Tau Players wrote:we all kill cats and sell our own families to the devil and eat live puppies.


 Kanluwen wrote:
This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.

Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army... 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Having played with and against 'nids since the codex dropped my impression is that they probably need a 10% price hike to monsters across the board (plus a little for Harpies and Maleceptors) and some tweaking to weapon costs (because Bone Swords and Scything Talons having the same point cost is dumb).

I have to caveat that because my Marine chapter runs Stalwart and Warded so that did blunt the psychic onslaught somewhat.

   
Made in us
Veteran Knight Baron in a Crusader






 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 JohnnyHell wrote:
Oh look. Competitive players spammed stuff from a Codex pre-FAQ… ensuring nerfs for everyone. Yawn. Competitive is a curse, haha.
Yep. Can't wait for my units to be nerfed before I've ever had a chance to try them out thanks to tournament players.



So it's okay for units to be obscenely powerful and imbalanced as long as it's the fluffy, non-tournament players using them?

I'm on a podcast about (video) game design:
https://anchor.fm/makethatgame
And I also stream tabletop painting/playing Mon&Thurs 8PM EST
https://twitch.tv/tableitgaming 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Master with Gauntlets of Macragge





Upstate, New York

 Rihgu wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 JohnnyHell wrote:
Oh look. Competitive players spammed stuff from a Codex pre-FAQ… ensuring nerfs for everyone. Yawn. Competitive is a curse, haha.
Yep. Can't wait for my units to be nerfed before I've ever had a chance to try them out thanks to tournament players.



So it's okay for units to be obscenely powerful and imbalanced as long as it's the fluffy, non-tournament players using them?


Fluffy players also tend to take the sub-par units, so over all the one or two broken things in their lists even it out. But when the broken stuff gets nerfed, and the crummy stuff doesn’t get buffed, their army takes a hit.

They also tend not to spam, so one singular broken thing is not skewing with an all-in approach.

(Obviously generalizing here, YMMV)

   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






 Stevefamine wrote:
Other things would need to get nerfed to see gaunt swarm or heavy little bug lists back in action


I assume they'll have a 1 page FAQ hotfix about the Maleceptor cast and might change some points by 10-30 here and there. Nothing too wild.

Remember this Tyranid Codex has to last us another 2-3 editions until 2030... let it be powerful so it lasts for years


Or maybe they just nerf everything that appeared in a top finishing list into the ground.

Let's see if you are dukhari or orks.

I present you, the the most misquoted part of all 40k lore:
Genetor Lukas Anzion in Codex Orks, 3rd edition wrote:[...] To the Ork, the only conceivable explanation for this is that the vehicle travels faster because it is red. However, as disturbing as it sounds, these 'facts' become true. Red Ork vehicles do travel perceptibly faster than those of other colors, even when all other design aspects are nominally the same. Similarly, many captured Ork weapons and items of equipment should not work, and indeed do not work unless wielded by an Ork. I believe this is linked to the strong psychic aura surrounding all Orkoids and have developed the Anzion Theorem of Orkoid Mechamorphic Resonant Kinetics. I theorise that many Ork inventions work because the Orks themselves think that they should work. The strong telekinetic abilities of the Ork's subconscious somehow ensures that the machinery or weaponry functions as desired.

This is literally all GW ever wrote on this topic - everything else is meme knowledge 
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

 Rihgu wrote:
So it's okay for units to be obscenely powerful and imbalanced as long as it's the fluffy, non-tournament players using them?
What are the obscenely powerful and imbalanced units exactly? Maleceptors... when taken in combination with a bunch of other stuff. But not the unit by itself.

The problem is GW won't "balance" the combo. They'll nerf the unit.

Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
Made in pl
Fixture of Dakka




 Nevelon wrote:


Fluffy players also tend to take the sub-par units, so over all the one or two broken things in their lists even it out. But when the broken stuff gets nerfed, and the crummy stuff doesn’t get buffed, their army takes a hit.

They also tend not to spam, so one singular broken thing is not skewing with an all-in approach.

(Obviously generalizing here, YMMV)


the thing with the new tyranids is, that just like with DE and harlequins and tau and custodes, you would have to get very creative to make a non very good list with them. Even the weaker options out of the codex are only weaker comparing to the top stuff. If tomorrow harpies or malaceptors got removed, the codex would still be extremly strong. This ain't no GK or Orks where the removal of one unit can or killed the respective codex.

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
Made in us
Veteran Knight Baron in a Crusader






 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 Rihgu wrote:
So it's okay for units to be obscenely powerful and imbalanced as long as it's the fluffy, non-tournament players using them?
What are the obscenely powerful and imbalanced units exactly? Maleceptors... when taken in combination with a bunch of other stuff. But not the unit by itself.

The problem is GW won't "balance" the combo. They'll nerf the unit.


Did you read the article in the OP? Judging by the wide variety of lists seen operating at high levels, I'd say it's a lot more than just a Maleceptor wombo-combo.

I'm on a podcast about (video) game design:
https://anchor.fm/makethatgame
And I also stream tabletop painting/playing Mon&Thurs 8PM EST
https://twitch.tv/tableitgaming 
   
Made in pl
Fixture of Dakka




 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 Rihgu wrote:
So it's okay for units to be obscenely powerful and imbalanced as long as it's the fluffy, non-tournament players using them?
What are the obscenely powerful and imbalanced units exactly? Maleceptors... when taken in combination with a bunch of other stuff. But not the unit by itself.

The problem is GW won't "balance" the combo. They'll nerf the unit.


That is like saying that broad sides or liquifires weren't OP, as long as you don't joing them with other stuff. The thing about both of those units is that most tau players will run the armies that make broadsides better and I have not seen a DE army without 6 transports in the pre liquifire nerf times. And I mean like on forums of different countries.

Practicaly every tyranid monster is undercosted for the stat line they have, and they are also very much not adjusted for playing leviathan.

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
Made in fi
5th God of Chaos (O'rly?)





 Stevefamine wrote:
Other things would need to get nerfed to see gaunt swarm or heavy little bug lists back in action


I assume they'll have a 1 page FAQ hotfix about the Maleceptor cast and might change some points by 10-30 here and there. Nothing too wild.

Remember this Tyranid Codex has to last us another 2-3 editions until 2030... let it be powerful so it lasts for years


Like 8e codex had to last you for 2-3 editions until 2027...oh wait.

In fact only editions tyranids haven't had codex been rogue trader(duh. No codexes there) and 7th.

So basically your post is worthless hyperbole.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/05/12 16:07:44


2022 painted/bought: 307/419 
   
Made in pl
Fixture of Dakka




Well for some armies it is true. In 8th GK armies were NDKS, interceptors and obligatory tax strike squads. Under the 9th ed codex GK run NDKs, intercptors and the obligtory tax strike squads. who knows maybe mr Famine knows that todays builds will stay the same under the next book in 10th.

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Bad news, it's only going to get worse from here thanks to codex creep. simplistically put, if each codex is 1 increment better than the previous, you have something like this:

Power - Army
----- + ------------------
4 - Custodes
5 - Tau
6 - Eldar
7 - Bugs
8 - Chaos

Tau was nerfed back back to (pre?)-Custodes level, so the power level between Tau and Eldar just went from 1 to 2. If they nerf Eldar back to Tau/Custodes level, you have a power differentiation level of 3 now between Tau/Custodes/Eldar and Nids. Once GW nerfs Nids, there's a 4-level difference between Chaos and the previous codexes.

So while each codex is still more broken than the last, the disparity will be even greater with each new codex. GW better find a way to flatten the curve or this game will be far more borked than 7th.


   
Made in us
Huge Hierodule




Mexico

 Stevefamine wrote:
Other things would need to get nerfed to see gaunt swarm or heavy little bug lists back in action

You would need to buff gaunts first.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Rihgu wrote:


Did you read the article in the OP? Judging by the wide variety of lists seen operating at high levels, I'd say it's a lot more than just a Maleceptor wombo-combo.


Yes, but in the context of the Maleceptor it only makes around 3.5 additional mortal wounds without buffs (plus whatever it does with smite and the other withcfire powers).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Karol wrote:


Practicaly every tyranid monster is undercosted for the stat line they have, and they are also very much not adjusted for playing leviathan.


Hive Tyrants, Maleceptors and Harpies? Sure.

Exocrines, Tyrannofexes and Carnifexes? Debatable.

Toxicrenes, Tervigons, Trygons, Thornbacks, Haruspexes, Hive Crones, Tyrannocytes and Sporocyst? definitely no.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2022/05/12 17:27:39


 
   
Made in pl
Fixture of Dakka




Look at how much an avarge non eldar tank costs, its stats, and then look at the stats of tyranids monsters. Then compare the points costs, and adjust for tanks not running around with superhuman physilogy always on.

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
Made in us
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord





In My Lab

Karol wrote:
Look at how much an avarge non eldar tank costs, its stats, and then look at the stats of tyranids monsters. Then compare the points costs, and adjust for tanks not running around with superhuman physilogy always on.
Are tanks considered worth taking?

And not being wounded on 2s doesn’t matter much when you’re T7 and T8.
How many weapons are S14+?

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in us
Quick-fingered Warlord Moderatus






 JNAProductions wrote:
Karol wrote:
Look at how much an avarge non eldar tank costs, its stats, and then look at the stats of tyranids monsters. Then compare the points costs, and adjust for tanks not running around with superhuman physilogy always on.
Are tanks considered worth taking?

And not being wounded on 2s doesn’t matter much when you’re T7 and T8.
How many weapons are S14+?


Yeah, if anything, more stuff in the game (vehicles) need to get similar tankyness to the new nids.

I've said it before and i'll say it again :

Make Land speeder equivalents T7 with a 3+ (Light vehicles)
Make Rhino chassis equivalent T8 with a 2+ (Heavy vehicles)
Make Land raider equivalents T9 with a 1+ (Superheavy vehicles)
   
 
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