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Made in us
Neophyte undergoing Ritual of Detestation





Just a thought.
Would expand creativity and allow for more focus on their point formula.
   
Made in ca
Librarian with Freaky Familiar






That is a horrible horrible idea.
Because you basically would recreate the loyal 32 spam, but with out the loyal 32.

I would expect you to see knight lists at 2k points but only running like 3 knights and using the rest of hte points to spam 3++ invulns and such.

To many unpainted models to count. 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Pretty much what Backspace said. Plus, you risk making CP so cheap that you up the game's lethality even more, so expensive that stratagems (especially the fluffy-but-meh ones) stop seeing use, or the utility of CP differs so much from one faction to another that you basically can't balance their cost at all.


ATTENTION
. Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
 
   
Made in it
Waaagh! Ork Warboss




Italy

Some of the pre-game stratagems, those who buff characters with additional traits, relics or improve their stats could definitely cost points instead of CPs though.

 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Oh definitely. Vastly prefer the Pivotal Role/Exarch Powers approach of paying points instead of CP for special abilities. You could absolutely do the same with unit upgrade strats, relics, warlord traits, etc.


ATTENTION
. Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut






What about the other way around?

You can buy points for CP. 50pts per CP means you could drop to 0CP but get 600pts extra for the game.

That way you keep the hard limit for CP but you can still have the same effect. Also makes armies which don't use CP so much a bit more viable.

You could even make it 100pts per CP, and say "let's have a 20CP game", which means you could have 2k points with 0CP left, or 500pts with 15CP to spend.

Ok, it'll need some balancing and restriction. Maybe even an "overwhelming force" or "Reinforcements" stratagem to play before the game to gain you points to buy or upgrade your units, so you can spend 1/3/6cp to gain 100/250/500pts of army, and can only do so once.

12,300 points of Orks
9th W/D/L with Orks, 4/0/2
I am Thoruk, the Barbarian, Slayer of Ducks, and This is my blog!

I'm Selling Infinity, 40k, dystopian wars, UK based!

I also make designs for t-shirts and mugs and such on Redbubble! 
   
Made in ca
Librarian with Freaky Familiar






 some bloke wrote:
What about the other way around?

You can buy points for CP. 50pts per CP means you could drop to 0CP but get 600pts extra for the game.

That way you keep the hard limit for CP but you can still have the same effect. Also makes armies which don't use CP so much a bit more viable.

You could even make it 100pts per CP, and say "let's have a 20CP game", which means you could have 2k points with 0CP left, or 500pts with 15CP to spend.

Ok, it'll need some balancing and restriction. Maybe even an "overwhelming force" or "Reinforcements" stratagem to play before the game to gain you points to buy or upgrade your units, so you can spend 1/3/6cp to gain 100/250/500pts of army, and can only do so once.


That too would not work because again, you bet your bottom dollar im gonna drop 12 CP in order to take 600 points worth of more models. Reason being is "do i think my opponent can get the equivalent of 600 points worth of damage to my army with his 12 CP?" If he cant, then i have a massave advantage by sitting there with a 600 point advantage.

Wanna know where we saw this happen before? late 7th through formations, wanna know what no one wants to deal with again? Late 7th formations where it was very much in the realm of possibilities where a formation could give close to 600 points with of free stuff.

The problem here is that you, not you specifically but in general everyone, is trying to make CP = points in some capacity. This is my main gripe about strats and why i personally hate them.
Not all starts are equal, and balancing them is a nightmare because of it. Almost every army basically has 2 or 3 stats that are good, the rest are awful, and between armies not even strat is as good as another armies strats. You could take one armies best strat they have, and it would pale in comparison to another armies best strat simply because of the synergy that exists with it. The only way to fix the CP system is take a chapter outta AoS.
Every one gets base line strats that exist across the whole army and is the same across everyones codex.

Then Specific HQs grant specific strats that they can use or specific units have a stat that only they can use and bake that into the post cost of the unit.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/05/16 18:15:51


To many unpainted models to count. 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut






 Backspacehacker wrote:
 some bloke wrote:
What about the other way around?

You can buy points for CP. 50pts per CP means you could drop to 0CP but get 600pts extra for the game.

That way you keep the hard limit for CP but you can still have the same effect. Also makes armies which don't use CP so much a bit more viable.

You could even make it 100pts per CP, and say "let's have a 20CP game", which means you could have 2k points with 0CP left, or 500pts with 15CP to spend.

Ok, it'll need some balancing and restriction. Maybe even an "overwhelming force" or "Reinforcements" stratagem to play before the game to gain you points to buy or upgrade your units, so you can spend 1/3/6cp to gain 100/250/500pts of army, and can only do so once.


That too would not work because again, you bet your bottom dollar im gonna drop 12 CP in order to take 600 points worth of more models. Reason being is "do i think my opponent can get the equivalent of 600 points worth of damage to my army with his 12 CP?" If he cant, then i have a massave advantage by sitting there with a 600 point advantage.

Wanna know where we saw this happen before? late 7th through formations, wanna know what no one wants to deal with again? Late 7th formations where it was very much in the realm of possibilities where a formation could give close to 600 points with of free stuff.

The problem here is that you, not you specifically but in general everyone, is trying to make CP = points in some capacity. This is my main gripe about strats and why i personally hate them.
Not all starts are equal, and balancing them is a nightmare because of it. Almost every army basically has 2 or 3 stats that are good, the rest are awful, and between armies not even strat is as good as another armies strats. You could take one armies best strat they have, and it would pale in comparison to another armies best strat simply because of the synergy that exists with it. The only way to fix the CP system is take a chapter outta AoS.
Every one gets base line strats that exist across the whole army and is the same across everyones codex.

Then Specific HQs grant specific strats that they can use or specific units have a stat that only they can use and bake that into the post cost of the unit.


Worth noting the opponent can make the same decision - "I don't think I can get 600pts of damage from my CP, so I'm going to take more dudes"

Like I said, it's going to be about balance, and tactics. Some people will prefer to have the flexibility of CP,to use their combos. Others will say "my stratagems suck, screw this I'll just take more dudes". And both sides are happy with their ability to choose.

12,300 points of Orks
9th W/D/L with Orks, 4/0/2
I am Thoruk, the Barbarian, Slayer of Ducks, and This is my blog!

I'm Selling Infinity, 40k, dystopian wars, UK based!

I also make designs for t-shirts and mugs and such on Redbubble! 
   
Made in ca
Librarian with Freaky Familiar






At that point then, why even take the CP?

outside of super niche abilities, i cant think of a single opertunity when you would NOT want to just take more modes. The one coming to mind is the CP for turning your knights into characters so they can all take relics and warlord traits.

Other then that, taking points over CP generally will be a better bet unless you have a very specifically tactic you are using with a strat.
I mean 600 points? thats knight, thats a big boy knight and some change at that point, well worth more then just CP.

To many unpainted models to count. 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Worth noting the opponent can make the same decision - "I don't think I can get 600pts of damage from my CP, so I'm going to take more dudes"

Like I said, it's going to be about balance, and tactics. Some people will prefer to have the flexibility of CP,to use their combos. Others will say "my stratagems suck, screw this I'll just take more dudes". And both sides are happy with their ability to choose.


Pretty much everything from my first post...
Plus, you risk making CP so cheap that you up the game's lethality even more, so expensive that stratagems (especially the fluffy-but-meh ones) stop seeing use, or the utility of CP differs so much from one faction to another that you basically can't balance their cost at all.


...applies the other way around. You're not creating interesting decisions so much as you're creating wrong decisions and inviting players to fall into the trap of taking the less optimized approach. In the case that CP are less valuable than points (or less valuable after you've taken enough CP to fuel whatever strats you deem worthwhile), you'll stop seeing any of the less optimal strats getting used, even situationally.

Basically, the pros of your pitch seem to be limited to:
* It feels neat to avoid making the wrong optimization decisions.

Whereas the cons are:
* You risk making game balance even worse.
* You risk functionally removing stratagems from the game for factions that have weaker stratagems.
* You risk giving people who are bad at number crunching a higher number of unenjoyable games because it's easy to make bad optimization decisions.
* You're also probably introducing a sort of gambling mechanic. Where the game can be ruined before deployment happens if one player skews hard enough into a points advantage. Like, if maxing out on points beats maxing out on CP beats taking a mix of points and CP, then you kind of just reduce the game down to rock paper scissors.

It's maybe also worth noting that the current rules give you some ability to do this already in the form of detachments. Taking a spearhead instead of a batallion as your only detachment is functionally trading CP for the ability to field a large number of theoretically more points-efficient units.

EDIT:
In theory, I guess you could probably allow players to give up X points for Y bonus command points with X and Y being based on the size of the game being played. So you could give people some ability to eck out a few more CP at the cost of army points, but you'd be preventing them from doing extreme trade-offs that would result in especially large imbalances. I'm not in love with the idea (partly because stratagems have a lot of problems in general), but you could do it. Let Poisoned Tongue players like me choose to play at a points disadvantage in exchange for feeling extra big brain with our extra Y CP.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/05/16 22:14:52



ATTENTION
. Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
 
   
Made in it
Waaagh! Ork Warboss




Italy

 some bloke wrote:
What about the other way around?

You can buy points for CP. 50pts per CP means you could drop to 0CP but get 600pts extra for the game.

That way you keep the hard limit for CP but you can still have the same effect. Also makes armies which don't use CP so much a bit more viable.

You could even make it 100pts per CP, and say "let's have a 20CP game", which means you could have 2k points with 0CP left, or 500pts with 15CP to spend.

Ok, it'll need some balancing and restriction. Maybe even an "overwhelming force" or "Reinforcements" stratagem to play before the game to gain you points to buy or upgrade your units, so you can spend 1/3/6cp to gain 100/250/500pts of army, and can only do so once.


Only if the new standard becomes 1500 points. Game is already massive, the very last thing we need is playing with more than 2000 points armies.

 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut






 Blackie wrote:
 some bloke wrote:
What about the other way around?

You can buy points for CP. 50pts per CP means you could drop to 0CP but get 600pts extra for the game.

That way you keep the hard limit for CP but you can still have the same effect. Also makes armies which don't use CP so much a bit more viable.

You could even make it 100pts per CP, and say "let's have a 20CP game", which means you could have 2k points with 0CP left, or 500pts with 15CP to spend.

Ok, it'll need some balancing and restriction. Maybe even an "overwhelming force" or "Reinforcements" stratagem to play before the game to gain you points to buy or upgrade your units, so you can spend 1/3/6cp to gain 100/250/500pts of army, and can only do so once.


Only if the new standard becomes 1500 points. Game is already massive, the very last thing we need is playing with more than 2000 points armies.


100% agree with this, I'd much rather see games of anywhere from 1500 to 2000 points, but with some variety.

 Backspacehacker wrote:


Other then that, taking points over CP generally will be a better bet unless you have a very specifically tactic you are using with a strat.
I mean 600 points? thats knight, thats a big boy knight and some change at that point, well worth more then just CP.


Ah, so we've agreed the idea in principle and now we're just haggling over price.

Just how many points would you say 1CP is worth? 30? 50?

At some point it's going to tip from "It's not worth taking CP instead of points" to "It's not worth taking points over CP". If we find that tipping point, then we find how much a CP is worth.

12,300 points of Orks
9th W/D/L with Orks, 4/0/2
I am Thoruk, the Barbarian, Slayer of Ducks, and This is my blog!

I'm Selling Infinity, 40k, dystopian wars, UK based!

I also make designs for t-shirts and mugs and such on Redbubble! 
   
Made in us
Deathwing Terminator with Assault Cannon






The game would be much healthier if it started off with way less CP's and are accrued over time by holding objectives. It tilts the game towards someone who's actually playing the tactical aspect of the game rather than ones trying to play a FPS with toy soldiers.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/05/18 13:33:01


 
   
Made in ca
Discriminating Deathmark Assassin





Stasis

 skchsan wrote:
The game would be much healthier if it started off with way less CP's and are accrued over time by holding objectives. It tilts the game towards someone who's actually playing the tactical aspect of the game rather than ones trying to play a FPS with toy soldiers.


It just means if you are winning, you get even more powerful.

213PL 60PL 12PL 9-17PL
(she/her) 
   
Made in us
Pious Palatine




 some bloke wrote:
 Backspacehacker wrote:
 some bloke wrote:
What about the other way around?

You can buy points for CP. 50pts per CP means you could drop to 0CP but get 600pts extra for the game.

That way you keep the hard limit for CP but you can still have the same effect. Also makes armies which don't use CP so much a bit more viable.

You could even make it 100pts per CP, and say "let's have a 20CP game", which means you could have 2k points with 0CP left, or 500pts with 15CP to spend.

Ok, it'll need some balancing and restriction. Maybe even an "overwhelming force" or "Reinforcements" stratagem to play before the game to gain you points to buy or upgrade your units, so you can spend 1/3/6cp to gain 100/250/500pts of army, and can only do so once.


That too would not work because again, you bet your bottom dollar im gonna drop 12 CP in order to take 600 points worth of more models. Reason being is "do i think my opponent can get the equivalent of 600 points worth of damage to my army with his 12 CP?" If he cant, then i have a massave advantage by sitting there with a 600 point advantage.

Wanna know where we saw this happen before? late 7th through formations, wanna know what no one wants to deal with again? Late 7th formations where it was very much in the realm of possibilities where a formation could give close to 600 points with of free stuff.

The problem here is that you, not you specifically but in general everyone, is trying to make CP = points in some capacity. This is my main gripe about strats and why i personally hate them.
Not all starts are equal, and balancing them is a nightmare because of it. Almost every army basically has 2 or 3 stats that are good, the rest are awful, and between armies not even strat is as good as another armies strats. You could take one armies best strat they have, and it would pale in comparison to another armies best strat simply because of the synergy that exists with it. The only way to fix the CP system is take a chapter outta AoS.
Every one gets base line strats that exist across the whole army and is the same across everyones codex.

Then Specific HQs grant specific strats that they can use or specific units have a stat that only they can use and bake that into the post cost of the unit.


Worth noting the opponent can make the same decision - "I don't think I can get 600pts of damage from my CP, so I'm going to take more dudes"

Like I said, it's going to be about balance, and tactics. Some people will prefer to have the flexibility of CP,to use their combos. Others will say "my stratagems suck, screw this I'll just take more dudes". And both sides are happy with their ability to choose.


It just turns CP into 'combo facilitator'. I need 4CP to do this mega wombo combo once per game. I will usually do it turn 2. Therefor, my list will be 2500pts. (2CP+2 at the start of turn). Any stratagem not used in the combo was always a luxury anyway so it's not sad to see it go for 500pts worth of army.

In the end, most GOOD armies end up with several hundred more points of already better than everybody else's dude, but can still use every stratagem they want. They just have to plan it slightly more. In attempting to force scarcity, you've just made it so they can have their cake AND eat it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 skchsan wrote:
The game would be much healthier if it started off with way less CP's and are accrued over time by holding objectives. It tilts the game towards someone who's actually playing the tactical aspect of the game rather than ones trying to play a FPS with toy soldiers.


Whenever people say stuff like this, I always wonder what game they're playing that someone is apparently massively slaughtering your forces and somehow isn't getting objectives out of it.

Getting CP for objectives is just a Win More bonus that favors already top tier armies.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 some bloke wrote:
 Blackie wrote:
 some bloke wrote:
What about the other way around?

You can buy points for CP. 50pts per CP means you could drop to 0CP but get 600pts extra for the game.

That way you keep the hard limit for CP but you can still have the same effect. Also makes armies which don't use CP so much a bit more viable.

You could even make it 100pts per CP, and say "let's have a 20CP game", which means you could have 2k points with 0CP left, or 500pts with 15CP to spend.

Ok, it'll need some balancing and restriction. Maybe even an "overwhelming force" or "Reinforcements" stratagem to play before the game to gain you points to buy or upgrade your units, so you can spend 1/3/6cp to gain 100/250/500pts of army, and can only do so once.


Only if the new standard becomes 1500 points. Game is already massive, the very last thing we need is playing with more than 2000 points armies.


100% agree with this, I'd much rather see games of anywhere from 1500 to 2000 points, but with some variety.

 Backspacehacker wrote:


Other then that, taking points over CP generally will be a better bet unless you have a very specifically tactic you are using with a strat.
I mean 600 points? thats knight, thats a big boy knight and some change at that point, well worth more then just CP.


Ah, so we've agreed the idea in principle and now we're just haggling over price.

Just how many points would you say 1CP is worth? 30? 50?

At some point it's going to tip from "It's not worth taking CP instead of points" to "It's not worth taking points over CP". If we find that tipping point, then we find how much a CP is worth.


That tipping point is A. Theoretical and B. Different for every list. Note I said LIST, not faction.

Example, Sigmar had this exact system. They got rid of it because it was terrible and impossible to balance (the current CP system is much better and arguably better than 40k's as well). You could pay 50pts for a CP. Most factions didn't care and would only buy a CP if their list ended 50pts short. No ability was really worth losing out on 50pts worth of models.

Then you had Flesh-Eater Courts. Flesh Eater courts could turn CP into new units with their summoning mechanic. 1CP, purchased for 50pts, could summon in a unit worth 140pts with the right characters. It was maybe a month before every Flesh Eater Courts army was: The best summoning Character, 2 Super Pushed Hero Behemouths(who could also summon), 3 minimum units of Battle line, and 10-12 Command points. FEC armies would start the game down 800pts, by turn 2 they'd be UP 600pts and would still have 1-2 CP to use for actually Command Abilities.

If they made an oversight like that in AoS, I'd hate to see what the 40k version would do. 1CP to summon 3 copies of Magnus that can reroll all save rolls? Wouldn't doubt it.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/05/30 22:54:45



 
   
Made in us
Neophyte undergoing Ritual of Detestation





What if stratagems (and CP) went away and all of the available buffs that stratagems provide costed points during list building instead?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/06/14 23:28:46


 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





 Just_Breathe wrote:
What if stratagems (and CP) went away and all of the available buffs that stratagems provide costed points during list building instead?

Broadly, that would be a step in a positive direction. Directly attaching a points cost doesn't work great for some stratagems. Like, it's hard to price a situational stratagem that only comes up when the stars align, and the kill-things-better stratagems that you want to use every turn would both feel weird as a wargear upgrade and would also make upgraded units into expensive targets thus introducing new balance concerns.

What I'd do is something like:

* Turn relics into conventional wargear possibly with a 0-1 limit.
* Turn warlord traits into upgrades that cost points. See: eldar exarch powers.
* Turn wargear strats into wargear. Ex: haywire grenades can just be a purchasable special weapon like they used to be.
* Unit upgrade strats like Veteran Intercessors can be a unit upgrade (see: true born and blood brides).
* Most version of orbital bombardment, etc. can become limited use special rules that cost points.
* Stratagems that represent someone calling out plays from the playbook can become Sigmar style command abilities or guard style orders. Ex: Instead of a reroll aura, my archon can point at a unit in the command phase and allow it to shoot or charge after falling back OR he can point at a raider and tell the guys embarked on it to load up the metallotoxin rounds.

That would still leave a few things like Epic Deeds and the various deepstrike stratagems unaccounted for. I feel like those could generally either be dropped, turned into limited use special rules similar to the orbital bombardments, or maybe be a one-per-army option that you can change up from battle to battle.


ATTENTION
. Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
 
   
 
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