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Made in ca
Twisted Trueborn with Blaster



Ottawa

40k fluff and some games such as Dark Heresy feature lascarbines, a more compact version of the lasgun with a shorter range. It is often favored by paratroopers, who cannot be carrying overly unwieldy rifles. What would it look like, rules-wise?

The simplest way would be to make it a Range 18, Assault 2 weapon. Either unaffected by FRFSRF, or affected differently (e.g. becomes Assault 3 or even Assault 4).

Another idea: Range 18, Rapid Fire 1, but if the unit is engaged in melee combat, it counts as having the Pistol type (not sure if Pistol 1 or Pistol 2) and can therefore be fired point-blank.

.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/05/19 16:14:37


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Assault 2 18” is pretty nice sounding.

"Us Blood Axes hav lernt' a lot from da humies. How best ta kill 'em, fer example."
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Made in us
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Yep. Assault 2 18" seems to be the most inkeeping with other "carbine" versions of weapons. You'll probably run into the same overlap issues that pulse carbines and pulse rifles did prior to the newest tau codex though.


ATTENTION
. Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
 
   
Made in ca
Fully-charged Electropriest






FRFSRF specifically says that "All lasguns and all hot-shot lasguns..." a lascarbine is neither of them so you really shouldn't need to change it.

If you do want to change it to work on lascarbines you could change the rule to be something like:

All las weapons with the Rapid Fire or Assault type in the ordered unit gain one extra attack until the end of the phase.
   
Made in de
Boom! Leman Russ Commander






Just to note: in the Gaunts Ghosts datasheet, Rawne and Mkoll have lascarbines. There they are 24'' assault 3, 3/0/1. A bit strange in my opinion, because it is almost always a straight upgrade to the standard lasgun (except within 12'' under FRFSRF), which begs the question why not everybody uses those.

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Made in gb
Lord of the Fleet






London

I'd be happy with just 18" Assault 2 as OP suggested, not sure why the GGs have 3 shots.
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




Assault 2 would just be a worse lasgun in nearly every situation. Especially if it can’t get FRFSRF.

- FRFSRF gives a lasgun 2 shots up to 24 inch. No advantage to the lascarbine there.
- FRFSRF gives a lasgun 4 shots up to 12 inch. No advantage to the lascarbine there.
- If you’re going to advance you’ll probably be MMMing anyway so you can’t even fire your lascarbine.
- The only situation it’s useful in is when you just advance, even then, you’re only firing at most 18 shots.

That’s why GG has an assault 3 one.
   
Made in au
Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot







Assault 3 sounds more like an submachinegun than a carbine. I think that it should not come down to just range and firepower. Perhaps you could +2 inches to movement as your guys are faster as they're not lugging full length rifles around then 18 inch assault 2. It'd perhaps encourage giving some squads carbines to secure objective points quickly, whilst most the formation still has lasguns and being able to put out twice the firepower without using a strategem is not to be snuffed at.

Perhaps if you wanted to go crazy with it SMGs and pistols could be 14inch and 12 inch +3 inches movment with smgs being assault 3 with FRSRF. Again, being able to move swiftly and put 3x the dakka out at the cost of a dramatic reduction in range should play well for assault troops or on urban boards etc.

I'd keep FRFSRF for all las long arms as there is no reason not to, and whilst i have an idea of how to make FRFSRF work more in line with how its meant to historically, it'd be a radical game overhaul that would make overwatch fire a key component, as historically FRFSRFing does not come from a need to 'keep the lead out', but to keep the enemy in check as half your formation reloads.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2022/05/24 21:29:33


   
Made in us
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 OldMate wrote:
Assault 3 sounds more like an submachinegun than a carbine. I think that it should not come down to just range and firepower. Perhaps you could +2 inches to movement as your guys are faster as they're not lugging full length rifles around then 18 inch assault 2. It'd perhaps encourage giving some squads carbines to secure objective points quickly, whilst most the formation still has lasguns and being able to put out twice the firepower without using a strategem is not to be snuffed at.

Perhaps if you wanted to go crazy with it SMGs and pistols could be 14inch and 12 inch +3 inches movment with smgs being assault 3 with FRSRF. Again, being able to move swiftly and put 3x the dakka out at the cost of a dramatic reduction in range should play well for assault troops or closer boards.

I'd keep FRFSRF for all las long arms as there is no reason not to, and whilst i have an idea of how to make FRFSRF work more in line with how its meant to, it'd be a radical game overhaul that would make overwatch fire a key component, as historically FRFSRFing does not come from a need to 'keep the lead out', but to keep the enemy in check as half your formation reloads.

Cool ideas there, OldMate, but I think this might be a good time to point out that sometimes it's better to just lump similar weapons together and not feel the need to stat out a bunch of variants. Instead of having an extra weapon profile to remember that gives +50% shooting versus the rapid fire version at short range and modifies the wielder's statline... We could instead just say, "Meh. Lascarbines are close enough to normal lasguns that they can share a statline."

And... *cracks open the can of worms*... we could probably do away with a few of the bolter variants out there while we're at it.


ATTENTION
. Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
 
   
Made in au
Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot







Wyldhunt wrote:
 OldMate wrote:
Assault 3 sounds more like an submachinegun than a carbine. I think that it should not come down to just range and firepower. Perhaps you could +2 inches to movement as your guys are faster as they're not lugging full length rifles around then 18 inch assault 2. It'd perhaps encourage giving some squads carbines to secure objective points quickly, whilst most the formation still has lasguns and being able to put out twice the firepower without using a strategem is not to be snuffed at.

Perhaps if you wanted to go crazy with it SMGs and pistols could be 14inch and 12 inch +3 inches movment with smgs being assault 3 with FRSRF. Again, being able to move swiftly and put 3x the dakka out at the cost of a dramatic reduction in range should play well for assault troops or closer boards.

I'd keep FRFSRF for all las long arms as there is no reason not to, and whilst i have an idea of how to make FRFSRF work more in line with how its meant to, it'd be a radical game overhaul that would make overwatch fire a key component, as historically FRFSRFing does not come from a need to 'keep the lead out', but to keep the enemy in check as half your formation reloads.

Cool ideas there, OldMate, but I think this might be a good time to point out that sometimes it's better to just lump similar weapons together and not feel the need to stat out a bunch of variants. Instead of having an extra weapon profile to remember that gives +50% shooting versus the rapid fire version at short range and modifies the wielder's statline... We could instead just say, "Meh. Lascarbines are close enough to normal lasguns that they can share a statline."

And... *cracks open the can of worms*... we could probably do away with a few of the bolter variants out there while we're at it.

I'd be inclined to agree, the differences might be more warranted in a skirmish type game or a platoon level combat primarily based around human combatants(such as the war against blood pact etc)

But Wyldhunt the marines are more Tactical now. Well not the tactical marines.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2022/05/24 21:40:55


   
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 OldMate wrote:
Assault 3 sounds more like an submachinegun than a carbine.

The ripper gun is Assault 3 and it is a huge automatic shotgun, so there is that.

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Assault 3 is too much for a shotgun though.
Assault 3 is like something you'd expect from a machinegun.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/05/25 10:15:08


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 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Assault 3 is like something you'd expect from a machinegun.

Then we came in a full circle because IRL carbines have similar fire rates as machine guns (M4: 700-950 round/min, M249: 700-850 round/min). So 3 shots are given, and the carbine is Assault instead of Heavy (like a machine gun) because it is, well, a carbine. An SMG would probably have the Pistol type or something.

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 AtoMaki wrote:
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Assault 3 is like something you'd expect from a machinegun.

Then we came in a full circle because IRL carbines have similar fire rates as machine guns (M4: 700-950 round/min, M249: 700-850 round/min). So 3 shots are given, and the carbine is Assault instead of Heavy (like a machine gun) because it is, well, a carbine. An SMG would probably have the Pistol type or something.

I was thinking more along the lines of a heavy machine gun such a MG42, which has a cyclic rate of 1200 rounds/min.
The heavy stubber, after all, is meant to be a heavy machine gun and it is heavy 3, iirc.
Didn't know that a M249 has a lower cyclic rate than a M4 carbine, that's interesting.

An SMG would probably be a pistol type weapon with a lot of shots, yes.
Come to think of it, does 40k even have SMGs? What would be the equivalent to a MP5?

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2022/05/25 11:29:54


What I have
~4100
~1660

Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!

A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble

 
   
Made in hu
Pyromaniac Hellhound Pilot





 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Come to think of it, does 40k even have SMGs?

Probably, they are just irrelevant in the setting.
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
What would be the equivalent to a MP5?

The boltgun.

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I guess, but bolts aren't really pistol calibre.
Then again, there are bolt pistols, so I guess they technically are?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/05/25 11:58:07


What I have
~4100
~1660

Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!

A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble

 
   
Made in hu
Pyromaniac Hellhound Pilot





 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
I guess, but bolts aren't really pistol calibre.

Obviously, but it is more of a role/use comparison. I can't see any weapon firing anything IRL pistol caliber in the 40k universe.

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on the forum. Obviously

Fair enough. I don't think an Ork is going to care about 9mm.
Or .45 for that matter.

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~1660

Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!

A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble

 
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




40k has machine pistols. Which are basically SMG’s the size of handguns.

I mean, autoguns come in all shapes and sizes. So there’s likely pistol calibre autoguns too.
   
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One would assume that the pistol autoguns would use pistol calibre ammunition, yes. Well, unless the gun manufacturer wants the damned thing to explode in the user's hands.
Didn't one of the Imperial armours say that autoguns were 8mm calibre?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/05/25 13:22:36


What I have
~4100
~1660

Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!

A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble

 
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
One would assume that the pistol autoguns would use pistol calibre ammunition, yes. Well, unless the gun manufacturer wants the damned thing to explode in the user's hands.
Didn't one of the Imperial armours say that autoguns were 8mm calibre?


Autoguns used on Vrak was 8.25mm from memory.
   
Made in fr
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on the forum. Obviously

That sounds about right. I don't think the case length was mentioned, but not many people are familiar with that detail, I think.

What I have
~4100
~1660

Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!

A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble

 
   
Made in au
Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot







Just looking at the chaos cultists box you
You have for "pistols" Mac 10s,(so machine pistols) as well as a larger that could be called an SMG(its got a little bit of a fore-end and you could definitelyput a stock on it, so you could use it as an SMG if you were not a deranged cultists obsessed with dying in melee) . Case length of the mac 10 style weapon is definitely much reduced whilst the SMG type weapon is bigger but definitely shorter in case length than the autoguns they come with. So we have 3 different weapon calibres in 1 box(before we get to other forms of firearms such as shotguns, non automaric rifles and machineguns)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/05/27 06:52:41


   
 
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