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Scanning through several Black Library books and old codices, I find repeated references to regular humans being dumbstruck when faced with a Space Marine (specifically meeting one for the first time), and shocked almost to the point of heart failure when coming face-to-face with a primarch.

However, in other books, WD articles, artwork etc., human characters seem unperturbed when they bump in to the Emperor's finest and hold regular conversations with the primarchs.

Which do you think of as being more accurate, and why? I know that meeting a primarch, for example, is meant to affect a human on an almost cellular level, but at the same time I imagine as soon as you got over the shock of, 'wow, look, a twenty foot tall golden man!', you would get used to it.

And can you suggest any good artwork of primarchs interacting with regular humans?
   
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Mortals who have fought with Astartes or who have been in their company multiple times often become more formal than afraid.
For example, the novel Cadian Blood has a company of Raven Guard present in the warzone. The General-Militant Froperspof or whatever is jittery and fearful around the RG Captain but the Cadian Colonel, having fought alongside that very same company in his Lieutenant days, is formal and even familiar, using the Astartes fist-to-chest salute over the sign of the Aquila.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/05/20 10:17:55


 
   
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Decrepit Dakkanaut




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Also don't forget Marines are not always your friend. It's perfectly possible to see them tear into what you might regard as innocents during a purge. Or to see insane fall out from their devastating weapons resulting in those around them getting injured and killed; or just killed/hurt as a marine pushes past them in power armour like a tank.


So its possible that some might well encounter Marines and still regard them with a sense of awe and fear. Perhaps even more fear if the encounter goes poorly for them.

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It depends on if that human has encountered a space marine or a primarch before. If you haven't, it is probably a shaking experience. I've never seen a book that had a human repeatedly have such a reaction after having been around space marines for a while. They do get used to it, but most people never have that opportunity. So awe is normal.

20 ft tall golden man. It sounds innocuous, but if you were actually next to a 20ft tall dude I wager you would never be dismissive of the experience. It would always be a little disturbing on some level.

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Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.

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Well. Here comes my favourite bit of 40K lore.

Trans-Human Dread. It’s not just that Astartes are inhumanely proportioned, but that they just don’t move as something of their bulk ought to. They’re not lumbering, they’re athletic. They move far faster than humans, when the human psyche demands they should be moving slower due to their sheer bulk.

In the novel Nightbringer, a burgeoning riot just sort of stops when Uriel Ventriss just drives by.

Your average citizen or Guardsman type is simply never going to see an Astartes. Those that do are most likely to see them doing what they do best. And if the Astartes are present, things are likely gone a bit pear shaped in the first place.

But even transhuman dread is, I suppose, temporary. Not fleeting as such, but something your mind adapts to in time. So if operating alongside Astartes for prolonged periods, folk might start to feel something approaching comfortable in their presence.

As another crap analogy, consider if you became friends (like actual, genuine firstname, see each other for dinner and drinks fairly regularly, even hang out at home with friends) with someone incredibly famous.

If you didn’t know them before their fame, you may well be in awe of them. But over time, you start to see them as just another human, albeit one pretty successful in their chosen career.

   
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There was a women i the rynns world book that I read who was a quite smitten with a certain crimson fist she used to see in ceremonial duties, same marine intimidated some other human into pissing his pants literally later on.

They’re scary things, but like all scary things they get less so with exposure, until they don’t. Like if you come face to face with a grizzly bear, scary. But you meet the same bear a few times and don’t die and become it’s mate, get into belly rubs and what have you, it’s nice. You’ve got a bear mate. Then one day he goes mental and eats your cousin. Scary again.

That’s how I see it anyway.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/05/20 22:28:44


 
   
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Decrepit Dakkanaut




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The bear is a good example honestly. I'd also add that, just like a bear, any interaction with them, even in the positive, would quickly remind you of the sheer power disparity between you which forces you to respect their greater strength in how you interact with them. If you don't at the very least respect that disparity it will hurt you.

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Do different Chapters of Space Marines react to people like different species of bear?
Like if you caught an Ultramarine trying to open your car could you just shout at it to make it run away?
Do you play dead when you see an approaching Space Wolf?
Do some Space Marine Chapters actively not recruit new Astartes because they seem determined to die out despite billions being spent on keeping them alive?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/05/20 22:51:47


 
   
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I mean you would pap your frillies as well if a gigantic gene enhanced human-mutant wearing full plate walked up to you. Like MDG says there's the uncanny valley aspect to marines that makes them disturbing. You see a lot of art of Space Marines looking normal and human but I feel they should look disfigured and fairly horrifying. You should be able to see aspects of their humanity but it is so far removed and you know they can rip you to shreds with their bare hands. Yet they are supposed to be your saviours? Yeah that's pretty scary.

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Yeah, they look human enough, till you realize the scale. Their proportions are 'wrong' for a human. Too large, too broad, too inhuman. They're just more.

Its probably not something that can be experienced unless you are seeing them in-person. Artwork just can't convey that sense of presence.

Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines

Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.

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Krieg! What a hole...

Depends. You have that, and then you have folks like Andrej in Helsreach that cracks jokes around like it's nothing.

I personally hate it, that and Transhuman Dread, just turning Guardsmen into simpering fools as if the lore doesn't already crap on them enough as is. And it's another very ''in your face'' Marines are the awesomest kinda thing, where they make regular folks figuratively gak their pants.

I don't like it one bit, part of why I like Andrej as a character I guess, he just does away with it all.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/05/21 05:11:41


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I think it actually enhances both the marines and the guard. It makes marines feel like incredibly rare super human legends. It makes guardsmen feel like they're the plucky underdogs. Be nice if it was more like that in the game.

The game would have been better if we hadn't gone down the marine focused rabbit hole.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/05/21 05:52:17


Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines

Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.

MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! 
   
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Krieg! What a hole...

Agreed with the second bit.

It might feel better if the Marines weren't the center of attention. Though, I am still not a huge fan of it feels like a faction is being diminished to make another look better.

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Savageconvoy wrote:
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Are you talking HH days or 40K days?

In the HH days marines and guardsmen were part of the same fighting force and we’re all fighting for the future of of humanity. The precedent was that they were all equal and humans shouldn’t have anything to fear from astartes and we’re entitled to standup to them like anyone else. We see this when Horus is brought back to the ship after being wounded by the anathema sword. The Luna wolves are so concerned and desperate to get him medical attention the punch and kick their way through the humans that are equally concerned about Horus, killing many of them. The human generals then demand justice for murder.

In 40K time marines, like most people, are just concerned with themselves and their chapter and their missions and duty. I doubt they really care about anyone unless they are part of their mission. And I doubt they would get in trouble for hurting a nobody human.

Most humans will only have heard of astartes in fairy tales or religious texts, so if the suddenly show up with guns it would probably be like Jesus walking into church with an AK 47 and an angry look on his face.

As far as primarchs go, they are genetically programmed to inspire fealty and worship from humans and it’s been described as such an intense sensation that is almost painful. But it just be something that humans get used to as all of the primarchs lived amongst humans before the emperor found them and they say in conference with humans during the HH.

Again in 40K I would say they seeing RG is almost unbelievable it must shock humans to their core, there are probably statues of RG in millions of planets but he is a character from stories 10k old, then he suddenly shows up, mind blown. I suppose it might be a fear if god situation
   
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I’m not that fussed for Astartes on the board. But in the background I’m hooked.

Consider the Guardsmen. They absolutely, 100% are the true heroes of 40K. That much I’d say is undeniable. They number in the untold billions. They’re Nothing Special. They’re you or me, given a Lasgun and some training.

But Astartes are simply magnitudes cooler.

They’re colossal beings. Clad in armour that makes a tank blush. Armed with weapons of frankly ludicrous proportions and horrific intent (literally. All intended for messy, demoralising death). Yet, they’re more than sheer brute force. They’re faster than a baseline human, and have practiced their martial skills pretty much all day every day, either in war or in training.

In terms of skill? Consider this most excellent scene from Ip Man. I’ll just link not embed as it’s a bit violent for young’uns.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-rUiE0xfyE

Now swap out Donnie Yen for an Astartes. Even unarmoured, those strikes are all shattering bone, not merely breaking it. Rib cages cave in, skulls sort of go pop with all blood and brains and eye guts. And yes. They can go at that speed - if not faster. Struggling to wrap your head around that? Now you’re inching closer to the aforementioned Transhuman Dread.

Strength, speed and skill to outstrip most mortals in at least one of those areas.

Then we have to consider just what level of injury an Astartes can genuinely walk off.

Not just their Armour of Protectiness. Oh no. It’s not that unusual for an Astartes to fight on with arms torn off. Stabbed them in the heart? They still keep on going.

Even if you’re on the same side as them? You’re going to besmirch your pantaloons should you be unlucky enough to see them in action. Because your brain is going to be screaming at the sheer unnatural ness of it all.

   
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also, dont forget that for many people, the space marines are literally the angels of their faith, the divine will of the God-Emperor made manifest. that HAS to add to the shock value of meeting them.

To be a man in such times is to be one amongst untold billions. It is to live in the cruelest and most bloody regime imaginable. These are the tales of those times. Forget the power of technology and science, for so much has been forgotten, never to be relearned. Forget the promise of progress and understanding, for in the grim dark future there is only war. There is no peace amongst the stars, only an eternity of carnage and slaughter, and the laughter of thirsting gods.

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Krieg! What a hole...

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

But Astartes are simply magnitudes cooler.


Agree to disagree, I guess, they never appealed to me

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Savageconvoy wrote:
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 Grey Templar wrote:
Yeah, they look human enough, till you realize the scale. Their proportions are 'wrong' for a human. Too large, too broad, too inhuman. They're just more.

Its probably not something that can be experienced unless you are seeing them in-person. Artwork just can't convey that sense of presence.


As big as they were Intended to be, they aren’t so freakishly big that they look unreal, I don’t want to turn this into an argument about how tall a marine is, that’s been done to death. The fact is jes Goodwin drew marines when he put down the blue print of their proportions for the design team back in the day, as 7 foot tall in armour. Now that’s big. But there are humans that size around now. Not many but some.

So liken it to meeting an NFL lineman, they don’t look enormous surrounded by other players of similar statures but when you see one out of that context they are big impressive creatures, but still human.

I imagine more so seeing an armoured Marine is like meeting an icon, a living legend. There would be a lot of awe. Seeing them at war would would be scary as hell. I like the idea of “trans-human” dread but it clearly doesn’t and shouldn’t affect everyone. Plenty of instances where people are I’m seeing a marine in action. That makes some sense though, if you are a guardsman who has fought ORKS and tyranids and mutants, you are going to have a high threshold for the unusual sights of the galaxy.
   
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I'm 6'8" & 250 and there are dudes that I see make me look like a shrimp....and I'm a full foot taller than the average human.

Hell I'd be concerned if someone my size was running at me with intent to kill, now add 10-15mph to that sprint, Combat bounding, power armour and a fething bolter.
   
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Another consideration is what Chapter is the marine from. Ultramarines and Blood Angels still remember their duty is to protect the citizens of the Imperium, and such will make an attempt to get along with those they must fight alongside or otherwise work with. Others like the Minotaurs and Marines Malevolent are close to becoming excommunicate traitoris as they don't give a damn about collateral damage to the Imperium, its civilians, or even other imperial fighting forces, including other marine chapters. In the case of the former chapters, normal humans can probably relax somewhat, provided they remain respectful. In the case of the latter, baseline humans not only must grovel, but keep their distance, as these savage marines are like sweaty dynamite (if dynamite is sweating, it is on a hair trigger and should be disposed of immediately as the least vibration will set it off). Wise commanders will deploy such unstable marines to areas where collateral damage is not a problem. Like boarding actions against Tyrannid bio-ships.

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Andykp wrote:


As big as they were Intended to be, they aren’t so freakishly big that they look unreal, I don’t want to turn this into an argument about how tall a marine is, that’s been done to death. The fact is jes Goodwin drew marines when he put down the blue print of their proportions for the design team back in the day, as 7 foot tall in armour. Now that’s big. But there are humans that size around now. Not many but some.

So liken it to meeting an NFL lineman, they don’t look enormous surrounded by other players of similar statures but when you see one out of that context they are big impressive creatures, but still human.


Yes, there are people as TALL as Space Marines are. But there isn't anybody who has the muscle mass as well as that height.

Dwayne Johnson is 6'5" and built solid. Now add 6" to his height and another 300lbs of muscle. That is definitely not a natural thing that will ever occur. Humans who get to 7' tend to have genetic or thyroid deficiencies that prevent them from becoming muscle men.

But I imagine that if anyone ever did get to that stage of ripped while also being 7' tall would inspire a little bit of the same feeling. The Rock is already a little surreal to be around as he's a big dude. Now imagine someone who would make him look tiny. That would be a little creepy.

Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines

Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.

MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! 
   
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Just so you know, the Rock ain't as big as he appears...camera adds 3-4" and 30lbs. Now the Undertaker OTOH ain't no joke.

Tom Cruise is the same height as my wife...doesn't look that way on screen. He played a dude my height(Jack Reacher) & I laughed(I walked next to him when I was 15 and dwarfed him).

But definitely add 300lbs of pure muscle/bone to my frame and it would look ridiculous. Scary but ridiculous still) which would lead to the disbelief/transhuman dread which that would instill.
   
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Andykp wrote:
There was a women i the rynns world book that I read who was a quite smitten with a certain crimson fist she used to see in ceremonial duties, same marine intimidated some other human into pissing his pants literally later on.


Another, very similar example is the wolf blade - Navigator house belisarius has a short platoon of space wolves that act as close protection to senior scions.

When you see them interacting with the Gabriella Belisarius, especially after Ragnar's got to know her between novels over several years, they're friendly to the point of almost flirting.


By comparison you see the wolf blade in the macharius novels* literally everyone in the room, up to and including the imperial warmaster's elite bodyguards, virtually soils themselves as the wolves stalk in.


* this time ironically featuring a young, cocky little arse by the name of Logan Grimnar who'd ended up in semi-exile in fairly similar circumstances to the ones Ragnar would face....

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 Grey Templar wrote:
Andykp wrote:


As big as they were Intended to be, they aren’t so freakishly big that they look unreal, I don’t want to turn this into an argument about how tall a marine is, that’s been done to death. The fact is jes Goodwin drew marines when he put down the blue print of their proportions for the design team back in the day, as 7 foot tall in armour. Now that’s big. But there are humans that size around now. Not many but some.

So liken it to meeting an NFL lineman, they don’t look enormous surrounded by other players of similar statures but when you see one out of that context they are big impressive creatures, but still human.


Yes, there are people as TALL as Space Marines are. But there isn't anybody who has the muscle mass as well as that height.

Dwayne Johnson is 6'5" and built solid. Now add 6" to his height and another 300lbs of muscle. That is definitely not a natural thing that will ever occur. Humans who get to 7' tend to have genetic or thyroid deficiencies that prevent them from becoming muscle men.

But I imagine that if anyone ever did get to that stage of ripped while also being 7' tall would inspire a little bit of the same feeling. The Rock is already a little surreal to be around as he's a big dude. Now imagine someone who would make him look tiny. That would be a little creepy.


This is what I mean though. I don’t think marines would or should look at “unhuman”. Big and scary, yes. Otherworldly big, no. They are still humans, just turned up to 11. So I go back to nfl linemen as examples. Around other linemen or on the telly, not so weird. Then you see them walking next to a “normal” person and the sheer size of them dawns on you.

That’s not to say marines can’t be terrifying, anything running around south a chainsaw chopping things up or blowing folk to pieces with rocket/grenade gun is going to be scary, especially if it is very good at it. I go to bears. A big old bear isn’t In it’s self terrifying. But if it’s eating your mates??


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Racerguy180 wrote:
I'm 6'8" & 250 and there are dudes that I see make me look like a shrimp....and I'm a full foot taller than the average human.

Hell I'd be concerned if someone my size was running at me with intent to kill, now add 10-15mph to that sprint, Combat bounding, power armour and a fething bolter.


Your a fething marine!

Cruise being Reacher was a joke, new one is much better.

This is why I hate when Marines are portrayed as 10 foot tall and things. It makes them look and seem silly, not imposing. Being bigger than an average human, as big as the biggest baddest types around makes them imposing and sinister.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/05/22 13:08:07


 
   
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I prefer the idea that they're wide as well as tall. It's like that picture of Wilt Chamberlain and Andre the Giant lifting Arnold Schwarzenegger. Chamberlain is tall, Andre was tall and wide.
   
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Nomeny wrote:
I prefer the idea that they're wide as well as tall. It's like that picture of Wilt Chamberlain and Andre the Giant lifting Arnold Schwarzenegger. Chamberlain is tall, Andre was tall and wide.


Linemen aren’t narrow!
   
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 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I’m not that fussed for Astartes on the board. But in the background I’m hooked.



They’re colossal beings. Clad in armour that makes a tank blush. Armed with weapons of frankly ludicrous proportions and horrific intent (literally. All intended for messy, demoralising death). Yet, they’re more than sheer brute force. They’re faster than a baseline human, and have practiced their martial skills pretty much all day every day, either in war or in training.

In terms of skill? Consider this most excellent scene from Ip Man. I’ll just link not embed as it’s a bit violent for young’uns.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-rUiE0xfyE

Now swap out Donnie Yen for an Astartes. Even unarmoured, those strikes are all shattering bone, not merely breaking it. Rib cages cave in, skulls sort of go pop with all blood and brains and eye guts. And yes. They can go at that speed - if not faster. Struggling to wrap your head around that? Now you’re inching closer to the aforementioned Transhuman Dread.

Strength, speed and skill to outstrip most mortals in at least one of those areas.

Then we have to consider just what level of injury an Astartes can genuinely walk off.

Not just their Armour of Protectiness. Oh no. It’s not that unusual for an Astartes to fight on with arms torn off. Stabbed them in the heart? They still keep on going.

Even if you’re on the same side as them? You’re going to besmirch your pantaloons should you be unlucky enough to see them in action. Because your brain is going to be screaming at the sheer unnatural ness of it all.


There's a really good description of this in "Pharos" with a group of human defenders laying an ambush for a Night Lord and they almost lose their nerve when he starts to charge them. Very powerful bit of writing, gives you a good sense of the sheer terror and overmatch.

Side note, but related - I'd love Xth Edition box set to feature the Guard as the Imperial faction.

EDIT - for those talking about the "look" of Astartes, Midwinter Minis did a video on this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xl6xKGAUsA0

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/05/25 14:33:45


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Sorry to use another wrestling comparison but I always imagined a guardsman standing next to a marine, with no armour, to be like CM Punk, standing next to the big show, except the marine is totally ripped.

I think the first alpha legion novel (is it called legion) gave me that impression with astartes from the AL able to be in rooms designed for regular sized humans but it can be a bit of a squeeze and they have to duck to get through doorways etc.

I know what you are going to say, they are the smallest astartes for some reason, but it’s not like there is such a whopping differ Between the AL and other legions.

Also I remember in the first HH book after they see the lunar wolf get turned into a demon Horus sits Garro (citation needed) down and pours them both a glass of wine from a bottle and into some cups that are just there, not specifically for a primarch and marine. So if they were sooooooo much bigger than a human they would have been sitting for a thimble of wine, that can’t actually get them drunk, I.e there would be no point.
   
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Andykp wrote:
This is what I mean though. I don’t think marines would or should look at “unhuman”. Big and scary, yes. Otherworldly big, no. They are still humans, just turned up to 11. So I go back to nfl linemen as examples.
But marines are explicitly posthuman, why shouldn't they be uncanny, barely imaginable beings that are like humans, but are also obviously not humans? Like, they're not big guys, there's the whole detailed list of all the ways in which they're genetically, physiologically, physically, technologically altered, and that's been part of their backstory for what, 30 years?


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Marines, unlike Primarchs, are also explicitly described as not being of regular human proportions, everything is just too big, too wide etc, particularly their faces.

   
 
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