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I'm pretty sure this is mentioned in some black library novel or background book, but I obviously don't have the right sources. I would be interested in who (administratively) builds the ships that are then used by the Navy, Rogue traders and conventional traders?

Are those build by Forgeworlds (so administratively the Adeptus Mechanicus) and then distributed to the Navy/sold to private merchants?
Or are there Worlds/Systems that administratively are owned by the Navy and produce ships instead of raising regiments?
Is this a thing done by any Civilized/Industrial World that has the capacity to do so?
Are shipyards something entirely different and administratively their own thing outside of the Admech/Navy/Administrativum?

And if there are any sources: If a system has the ability to build a monitor for system defence or (hypothetically) even a ship able for warp-travel, can they just do it or is this something that is only allowed on order from higher up because of the "keep army/fleet separate so nobody can revolt" thingy?
Edit: so I mean can for example a planetary governor decide "OK, lets build a Sword Frigate to bolster our System defence" or does he get in trouble for that?



On a similar note: do Space Marines build their ships themselves or do they get them from one of the above indicated sources?

Lexicanum wrote:The Lunar class is represented in almost any Imperial Fleet that one will see, as it is uncomplicated to produce. Roughly six hundred Lunar class vessels are in service in Segmentum Obscurus alone. Even a Hive World with no shipbuilding expertise can build a Lunar class in short periods of time. The ship Lord Daros was built in orbit of the Feral World of Unloth. For eleven years its inhabitants mined and smelted ores to be presented to the "sky temples." Their perseverance was rewarded with the birth of a new star in the heavens, which left to join its brothers in the cosmos. This "new star" was the Lord Daros's plasma wake, as it left the system to join its fleet.

 Pyroalchi wrote:
On a similar note: do Space Marines build their ships themselves or do they get them from one of the above indicated sources?

Some (such as Ultramarines) have shipyards, but most get theirs from the AdMech.

Everything is built with Mechanicus oversight. So while Armageddon is an Industrial World that produces massive amounts of arms and armour, there are still Mechanicus representatives to make sure nothing goes horribly wrong.
The Mechanicus builds ships, as do worlds with important ties to the Navy. Defence monitors and non-Warp craft fall under each planet's armed forces.
Astartes rely on ships built by the Mechanicus or taken as spoils of war.

Its 40k so it depends.

Ships are made by the Ad Mech for their own fleets and the Imperium
Ships are made by various Chapters for their own use
Some worlds can build them for the Imperium - in Battlefleet Gothic rulebook it even talks about a primitive world using its whole resources to build one cruiser over a couple of years iirc

Most worlds will not have a fleet (or even warships) that are capable of Warp travel - but will have plenty of system defence ships. Building warp capable warships will likely bring unwanted attention - eventually. Visiting Navy Captains will likely take a dim view of warp capable warships in systems for the most part but there are exceptions.

Does a Governor get into trouble will depend alot on his/her connections, the reason for doing so and who notices.

I think the answer is "all of the above".

The Navy operates its own shipyards in places like Bakka, Cypra Mundi, and Jupiter in the Sol System.

The Ad Mech also produces large numbers, probably distributed through ancient treaties.

Many advanced systems also have shipyard facilities, like Armageddon or Necromunda. Unclear who administers these, but probably the Imperial Navy (note that the majority of shipping appears to be run by the Merchant Marine as a branch of the Navy. Basically all auxiliaries).

There is a particularly famous example of a Lunar-class cruiser being built in orbit of a feral world using resources from said world. Unclear how this was achieved or administered, but it is clearly possible to build some designs even over feral worlds

The Ad Mech would have a presence in all of these, in the form of techpriest enginseers.

Space Marines do often have shipyards, to repair and refit ships. Probably these are all capable of building new ships, but I suspect that is rare. Mostly they will likely be supplied by forgeworlds through their usual treaties, and also through vessels captured or salvaged in war. Chapters like the Salamanders can definitely construct advanced vessels like Battle Barges.

The existence of Iconoclast ships shows that building small warp capable ships is still possible without the supervision of the Adeptus Mechanicus. Specifically the Iconoclast is given as a representative example of the ships that can be produced by almost any shipyard, and used often by pirates and lawless bands. So these shady or criminal groups clearly have both the means and skills to acquire and operate these ships.

Iracundus wrote:
The existence of Iconoclast[/i[ ships shows that building small warp capable ships is still possible without the supervision of the Adeptus Mechanicus. Specifically the [i]Iconoclast is given as a representative example of the ships that can be produced by almost any shipyard, and used often by pirates and lawless bands. So these shady or criminal groups clearly have both the means and skills to acquire and operate these ships.

Very true but if you, as a Planetary Governor start building a fleet of warp capable warships then people may well notice and ask why - The Imperium does not really want intersystem wars and a flag showing visit by a Nay Squadron followed by a request to hand over the ships to the navy (or similar) would likely follow.

You also need to have very advanced tech or access to navigators - and again questions would be asked why you need them.

The very existence of multiple pirate bands with significant numbers of ships shows that the Imperium's attempts to control access to warp capable ships is not as airtight as they might like. Navigator access is also not strictly necessary as calculated jumps are possible, and indeed much of the Imperium's merchant shipping is via such calculated jumps using charts.

 Haighus wrote:
I think the answer is "all of the above".
...
The Ad Mech would have a presence in all of these, in the form of techpriest enginseers.

This. Basically, the "main" faction in charge of a ship's creation can vary. But regardless of the main faction, there is going to be a significant mechanicus presence. You might have enough manpower to put the hull together, but do you really want some non-mechanicus heretech installing your cogitators, engines, etc.? (And even if you did want to take that risk, it would probably be considered heretical to do so.

It's worth remembering that building a ship, especially a warp-capable one, is a pretty big undertaking. You generally have to have some pretty large, dedicated facilities with lots of expensive and hard-to-use equipment to pull it off. I think the Rogue Trader rpg cited ship construction as taking roughly a decade to complete. Plus, if you're not planning to use the ship yourself, you'll have to go through the process of negotiating a deal with someone to make the construction worthwhile. And there are certainly buyers out there, but I imagine there's a lot of politics and assassination attempts and sabotage that go into such negotiations. Plus, you have to scrape together the raw resources for the project, so that may involve importing some materials from out of system if your local resource harvesting isn't up to the task.

Basically, you probably have to make the very intentional decision to "spec into" ship building to make all the trouble worthwhile. It could take years or even decades to produce your first ship (although a dedicated facility could have subsequent ships ready to go quickly after the first), and it might not be an easy project to keep hidden. So it's unlikely to be a side project for a planetary governor, but a Rogue Trader who owns his own shipyard might be able to occassionally build a ship for his own fleet without it draining his bank account.

Space Marines do often have shipyards, to repair and refit ships. Probably these are all capable of building new ships, but I suspect that is rare. Mostly they will likely be supplied by forgeworlds through their usual treaties, and also through vessels captured or salvaged in war. Chapters like the Salamanders can definitely construct advanced vessels like Battle Barges.

Relevant anecdote: There's a story where the Nova Marines and the Blood Drinkers (iirc) are convinced by the mechanicus to take on a mission they were going to pass on or handle differently. The mechanicus basically pays them to handle the mission their way in exchange for performing repairs on one of their vessels and the creation of a second vessel to be given to their chapter. So apparently a new ship is roughly the price needed to "buy" a mission from a marine chapter.

Specifically a new Strike Cruiser each, a vessel with rare systems and weapons not afforded to regular Navy ships.

Both the Imperium and the Ad-Mech make Imperial Navy vessels.

There’s a great story in the BFG rulebook describing how an Imperial feudal world mined and delivered material for years to then be rewarded with a new sun in the sky which slowly disappeared (IE: flew away).

I've not read about human pirates with warp capable ships. Where are these mentioned?

I thought that in 40k piracy was conducted by orks, eldar, chaos, etc. As those sides are usually considered to be in a state of hostilities with the Imperium and eachother the actions would be sanctioned by whatever constitutes a government for that a faction and would therefore be more akin to privateering or simply an extension of the war between them.

The Black Adder wrote:
I've not read about human pirates with warp capable ships. Where are these mentioned?

I think one of the short stories set on Huron Blackheart's world mentions some of the attendees of an event he hosts being pirates. There might also be a reference to pirates visiting the drukhari city in one of the Fantasy Flight Rogue Trader books. My headcanon is that most human pirates are local to the system they inhabit and that their ships are small enough to escape sensor detection by hiding out within their local systems. The warp-capable pirates we see tend to be lead by (or primarily consisting of) traitor astartes. I suppose that it makes a certain amount of sense that warp-capable vessels with a bad habit of getting in your face would naturally fall into the hands of any heretic astartes they encounter. They probably naturally gravitate towards some of the same hiding spots too.

I thought that in 40k piracy was conducted by orks, eldar, chaos, etc. As those sides are usually considered to be in a state of hostilities with the Imperium and eachother the actions would be sanctioned by whatever constitutes a government for that a faction and would therefore be more akin to privateering or simply an extension of the war between them.

I mean, technically, but it's way cooler to call yourself a pirate than a privateer! More seriously, "piracy" in 40k seems to generally refer to theft-motivated attacks. So that eldar corsair fleet attacking your ship is technically a "pirate" fleet because it wants to swipe the rare materials you're transporting rather than wanting to kill you due to prophecies or what have you. Drukhari, therefor, technically qualify as "pirates" more often than not because their goal in attacking your ship is to steal its tradegoods. Those goods just so happen to include you and your crew. I suppose technically the imperials in charge of assigning titles like "pirate" might also be aware that corsairs don't necessarily align themselves with one of the more established factions (such as a craftworld) and are thus not technically part of the factions the imperium is officially at war with... But that seems a bit too nuanced for the imperium.

But yeah. I suspect most warp-capable human pirates are either chaos ships (or hired thugs of chaos ships) or possibly unscrupulous rogue traders profiting off of their rivals' territory.

No reason to think that there wouldn't be generic non-chaos space pirates too. There are privately owned warp capable ships, therefor there is private commerce which would naturally lead to eventual piracy. Naval captains could also go rogue and just take their ship and start raiding shipping for booty, or good old fashioned mutiny.

It would be pretty easy for someone with a ship to set themselves up as a pirate. The whole of space to hide in. Attack ships that are unescorted, help isn't going to come till you are long gone, and then zip back to your hiding spot. Find some undiscovered feudal world and set yourself up as a petty king.

There are human warp capable pirates. There was a list for them in BFG magazine. They were mostly fleets of escorts, with cruisers a rarity as it is rare for pirates to be able to overwhelm and capture something cruiser size or above let alone repair and operate it.

Also as already mentioned the very existence of the Iconoclast escort ship as an example of the kind of ship available to pirates and other lawless bands shows non-CSM pirates exist. That is why Imperial Navy patrols and convoys exist at all, to counter the threat of piracy.

The Black Adder wrote:
I've not read about human pirates with warp capable ships. Where are these mentioned?

They are. They're listed in the BFG rulebook. Under one of the Chaos escorts as being popular among pirates. Iconoclast Class Destroyer and Idolator Class Raider being the most common pirate vessels.

Some time around 2nd or 3rd there was a human space pirate index in an edition on white dwarf.

I think there must be also many groups of humans existing in the edge of imperial society. Look at the new necromunda ash wastes, I doubt there much imperial law there. It would be the same in space, who knows how they get the stuff they need, besides piracy. And I bet there are a number of renegade SM chapters making a living acquiring technology that these people need to live.

On those fringes there must also be people that have learned to manage technology in a way the admech would consider heresy. I would like to read more about those elements even if it’s just to try and expand the universe in my head.

At the start of the soul drinkers omnibus they board a pirate space station looking for a relic, and the chapter master is killed by an adult who was in a child’s body (trying to remember this accurately) and she stabbed him with a poison needle. That short scenario asks so many questions in itself.

Iracundus wrote:
The existence of Iconoclast ships shows that building small warp capable ships is still possible without the supervision of the Adeptus Mechanicus. Specifically the Iconoclast is given as a representative example of the ships that can be produced by almost any shipyard, and used often by pirates and lawless bands. So these shady or criminal groups clearly have both the means and skills to acquire and operate these ships.

There are some fun to ponder implications here. Even if the iconoclast is relatively cheap and easy to build, it sounds like it's still an expensive undertaking. So a hypothetical shady group that wants to have one built would need to have enough wealth and influence to have the thing built, yet little enough wealth that they benefit from pillaging whatever small targets would be susceptible to the iconoclast(s).

So I'm picturing planet-based merchant lords having the iconoclasts built to serve as smuggling ships or to attack critical shipments intended for their rivals. And then someone declares the ship and its crew criminals, and they're forced to flee imperial society and do the pirate thing full-time.

Maybe they are just cannoned-up merchants with a bit more armour bolted on.

The interesting bit to me are the logistics. 40k doesn't have the Star Wars "hey lets fix my wrecked space ship with a hammer in an ice cave" kind of vibe for maintenance, so for the level of heavy maintenance I would expect needed for a warp capable ship, it must be super-lucrative to set up a shady shipyard

I mean any warband will be able to nick a ship from somewhere, but what do they do when the flappy thingy breaks and doesn't flap any more? (or indeed flaps too much)

 Flinty wrote:
but what do they do when the flappy thingy breaks and doesn't flap any more? (or indeed flaps too much)

Stick a deamon in it?



Wasn't one of the early Boom! comics about an Inquisitor investigating a trade guild suspected of being pirates?

mrFickle wrote:
At the start of the soul drinkers omnibus they board a pirate space station looking for a relic, and the chapter master is killed by an adult who was in a child’s body (trying to remember this accurately) and she stabbed him with a poison needle. That short scenario asks so many questions in itself.

Getting stabbed in the ankle by a midget with a needler is a very Ben Counter solution to the problem of needing the Chapter command out of his plot.

 Flinty wrote:
Maybe they are just cannoned-up merchants with a bit more armour bolted on.

See, that almost feels right, but then they still have to be merchants with enough wealth and influence to gain possession of a ship in the first place. So at some point, someone had to decide that it would be better to risk the health of their expensive ship by getting into scraps with other ships, orbital defense platforms, etc. and then sending voidsmen over to do boarding actions followed by physically picking up valuables and carrying them back over the merchant-turned-pirate ship. Instead of just like, delivering some cargo to the next system over and getting paid to do so.

Definitely not an impossible scenario, but it seems like you have to have a somewhat specific confluence of events to end up there. Like, the crew has to rebel and (realizing they're legally in the wrong according to the Imperium) resort to piracy for survival. Or a business venture has to go wrong, and the captain or owner of the ship has to realize that they're financially ruined and raiding some of those colonies on the edge of imperial space might prop them up enough to retain something resembling their former grandeur.

The interesting bit to me are the logistics. 40k doesn't have the Star Wars "hey lets fix my wrecked space ship with a hammer in an ice cave" kind of vibe for maintenance, so for the level of heavy maintenance I would expect needed for a warp capable ship, it must be super-lucrative to set up a shady shipyard

I mean any warband will be able to nick a ship from somewhere, but what do they do when the flappy thingy breaks and doesn't flap any more? (or indeed flaps too much)

It's only lucrative until the security you hired is insufficient to stop that warband from seizing your shipyard and deciding you work for them now. But yes. I imagine there are some cool stories to be told there.

There also seem to be some interestingly shady-but-technically-legit locations in the setting. The novel Farseer has a space station where the imperium's hold is strong enough to make you nervous about being a psyker or irking the inquisition but weak enough that you can make business deals with barely-disguised xenos and still get away with it. Which honestly, might be one of my favorite flavors of 40k.

 Flinty wrote:
Maybe they are just cannoned-up merchants with a bit more armour bolted on.

The interesting bit to me are the logistics. 40k doesn't have the Star Wars "hey lets fix my wrecked space ship with a hammer in an ice cave" kind of vibe for maintenance, so for the level of heavy maintenance I would expect needed for a warp capable ship, it must be super-lucrative to set up a shady shipyard

I mean any warband will be able to nick a ship from somewhere, but what do they do when the flappy thingy breaks and doesn't flap any more? (or indeed flaps too much)

For sure they talk about all sorts of Tech Adepts who go rogue, getting more money. Presumably if you are low level, it is easy to go off the track and start up, even if you don't have much skill you are probably in extremely high demand.

I was recommended one of the Warhammer Crime books that centres around a settlement that has imperial and admech areas and is about servitors going rogue. Was an extremely enjoyable read, I'd recommend it providing you enjoy a Noir-esque narrative. It did a great job of showing off a really cool slice of 40k life.


I mean in older 40k lore (I don't know if this still holds up) you could have entire planets going rogue and only get flagged up after they have repeatedly missed their tithes. That might be 50 odd years later, more once a battlegroup was assembled to take a look. That is very big picture, corpulent Imperium stuff. On a small scale, you are going to be very aware of ships moving through your system, but one or two going missing? Anything could have happened to them. It would be very easy to be a pirate in 40k if you keep relatively low-key.

EDIT: Gah reading through this really makes me want to play BFG.

There is probably a serious temptation for low/mid level tech adepts who realize they can make a load of money repairing stuff. Particularly if they're the more inventive types and feel constricted by the rules. Just leave the Ad Mech and set up shop with your own rules.

And you wouldn't even necessarily need to leave the Imperium itself. Just avoid any authorities who actually care about you breaking the rules. The local governor won't care if you're operating an illegal shipyard as long as you slide him a cut. Not to mention he'll probably have work for you too.

40K technology is black box technology that lasts hundreds or thousands of years. Except when Tech Priests need to access them, they seem to be incredibly durable and hands off. We know this as we see things like Chartist merchant ships ply the same routes over and over, using calculated jumps, apparently without having any Tech-Priest on board. We see the Imperial Guard modify their tanks because the Adeptus Mechanicus Enginseers cannot be everywhere at once.

There is a significant shady underbelly to the Imperium as shown by the existence of such ports as that near the Blackstone Fortress in the game of the same name. These are places where the law of the Imperium is far away, and smugglers and other criminal elements engage in trade and rub shoulders with aliens. These are the places where pirates could sell their ill-gotten gains and take on crew or equipment. The Adeptus Mechanicus monopoly on technology is not as absolute as they would like.

Iconoclast ships are not "cannoned-up merchants". They are faster, more maneuverable, better armed with longer ranged weapons. They are basically a smaller, faster, 75% as well armed Sword frigate. Two of them together match the weapons battery portion of a Lunar class cruiser's broadside. Four of them combined match the broadside firepower of a Retribution class battleship. When talking space piracy, it seems a lot of the time it is not the lone pirate ship but actual pirate fleets like that historically found for example in the South China Sea. Pirate gangs of thousands of men and many ships, a literal fleet. Taking a transport may seem like a "small deal", and it might be on a planetary scale, but it is like seizing a modern container ship. The cargo would be vast for a pirate band.

It's been so long since I looked at the BFG book, I clearly blanked any reference to human pirates from my brain. I can totally believe there are plenty of them out there. I mean the Imperium and it's laws gets pretty fuzzy around the edges and it's got about as much integrity as Swiss cheese, which makes it shades of fuzzy pretty much anywhere but it's core worlds.

So, provided there's a scenario in which humans end up as pirates, and they have a warp capable ship, and they can fix it, how do they navigate?


Even if the crew of a ship turn pirate, is their navigator going rogue with them?

If so, what ramifications do those actions have for a navigator house?

If pirates are building iconoclasts, where are they getting new piratical navigators from?

They don't need Navigators. Warp travel came before the development of Navigators.

Not every ship needs Navigators. Imperial Chartist ships don't and rely on maps and calculated warp jumps. Calculated warp jumps are also how most pirate bands would likely travel.

It is possible for a ship to make short warp jumps of about four to five light years with a certain degree of accuracy.

p. 85, BFG rulebook

Longer jumps for more efficient long distance travel require Navigators, but pirates may stick to just a few systems they are familiar with for their targets and hide out at other times in otherwise uninhabited star systems.

There are a lot of Navigator families and each Navigator is still human, they aren't free from the vices and emotions of their non-mutated kin.
Shrouded/Beggar Houses and Renegade Houses would be a potential source for pirates but Navigators are also extremely loyal to the ships they serve on. Nisha Andrasta served aboard the Conquerer from the time it was still named the Adamant Resolve under the Warhounds until just before the Siege of Terra where she ends her life after setting course with the rest of the Traitors. Despite being loyal to Terra and the Emperor she still guided the Conquerer for almost a decade after it's master had turned from the Throne.

 Gert wrote:
There are a lot of Navigator families and each Navigator is still human, they aren't free from the vices and emotions of their non-mutated kin.

Absolutely. Navigators end up becoming inordinately wealthy, and will have all of the vices to go along with it. They're really no different from the nobility of the Imperium. They're just nobles with a specific job title.

A lesser child of a Navigator house, ostracized by his kin for reasons could make a pretty penny operating on the grey side of the law. When you have a monopoly on something that is so vital for travel, you can really flex on people.

 Flinty wrote:
Maybe they are just cannoned-up merchants with a bit more armour bolted on.

They do this as well. As does the Imperium. Merchant vessels can be converted into Q-Ships. Basically a cargo vessel that gives up all of its storage capacity for additional weapons. These are concealed behind fake walls, shutters, cargo bay doors, etc then revealed once the target gets close.

There's also dedicated armed merchants, they give up some cargo space for more weapon batteries compared to regular merchant vessels.