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Made in ca
Poisonous Kroot Headhunter





Okay, so I may be overthinking this, but we just got this tounge and cheek article from Warhammer Community on 18(20) ways to celebrate the new HH release, each of them referencing the Space Marine Legion of the same number. For Example the 15th is "Give your father a call and fill him in on all your exciting news – just maybe wait until he’s finished with that “super secret” science project down in the basement." So they do tie to their specific Legion numbers.

The second shows "Redacted." as expected, however, the one for the 11th does not; instead it says: "Immediately leave the party, sever all links, and never be heard from again…"

Could this mean that rather than being wiped out, the 11th Legion ran off and abandoned the Imperium? Perhaps they found some way to leave the Galaxy entirely and traveled somewhere else by means scientific or arcane?

Perhaps I'm reading WAY too much into this, but what do you all think?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/06/20 15:13:06


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You are overthinking it.
   
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UK

GW love to tease us with little hints like this. It is definitely deliberate but until it gets confirmed in canon, treat it as amusing speculation.

The closest we get to answer is "The Room at the end of memory" which implies both the 2nd and 11th Primarchs were killed but that Marines from both Legions were inducted into the Ultramarines and Imperial Fists.

I stand between the darkness and the light. Between the candle and the star. 
   
Made in ca
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 Karhedron wrote:
GW love to tease us with little hints like this. It is definitely deliberate but until it gets confirmed in canon, treat it as amusing speculation.

The closest we get to answer is "The Room at the end of memory" which implies both the 2nd and 11th Primarchs were killed but that Marines from both Legions were inducted into the Ultramarines and Imperial Fists.


Yeah, if it one day gets confirmed what happened to them (which I think is highly unlikely) it's either a neat little nod, or something they can just ignore since it's not in cannon.

IIRC, there is a scene in HH (I think from First Heretic?) where a couple of Gal Vorbak are talking about the lost legions and they heavily imply that the Ultramarines absorbed one of the lost legions, but not both.

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I think there’s also a hint on the Crusade era Carta Galactica?

Haven’t put mine up yet, so can’t confirm.

   
Made in ca
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There's a mention in one of the Fabius Bile books, the second one I think, where one of the lost Primarchs visited the Ymga Monolith, which is apparently Necron.

My head-canon is that they saw the scale of the Necron threat, realised they couldn't win, and promptly got sanctioned for a defeatist attitude and a scorching case of nano-scarabs.
   
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Preparing the Invasion of Terra






The WB thing is a joke, lots of people just didn't get it.
As for the IF and UM getting a bumper stock of troops and equipment, it doesn't necessarily mean it was fully fledged Astartes. It would be much more likely that it was recruits and the equipment destined for them.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/06/20 17:02:20


 
   
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 Tawnis wrote:
 Karhedron wrote:
GW love to tease us with little hints like this. It is definitely deliberate but until it gets confirmed in canon, treat it as amusing speculation.

The closest we get to answer is "The Room at the end of memory" which implies both the 2nd and 11th Primarchs were killed but that Marines from both Legions were inducted into the Ultramarines and Imperial Fists.


Yeah, if it one day gets confirmed what happened to them (which I think is highly unlikely) it's either a neat little nod, or something they can just ignore since it's not in cannon.

I mean, one should never store the history of one's setting in a piece of artillery...

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 Kanluwen wrote:
This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.

Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army...

tneva82 wrote:
You aren't even trying ty pretend for honest arqument. Open bad faith trolling.
- No reason to keep this here, unless people want to use it for something... 
   
Made in gb
Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon






If I’m right in thinking, the Ultramarines absorbing other Legions was speculation on behalf of the characters?

I mean, given Macragge had 500 civilised worlds to draw recruits from, and at that point supplying the Geneseed, arms and equipment wasn’t that much of a problem, it’s hardly remarkable they had a head start on Legions having to carve out their fiefdoms as the Crusade rolled along.

   
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Nomeny wrote:
There's a mention in one of the Fabius Bile books, the second one I think, where one of the lost Primarchs visited the Ymga Monolith, which is apparently Necron.

My head-canon is that they saw the scale of the Necron threat, realised they couldn't win, and promptly got sanctioned for a defeatist attitude and a scorching case of nano-scarabs.


Yeah, that was the second Legion.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
If I’m right in thinking, the Ultramarines absorbing other Legions was speculation on behalf of the characters?

I mean, given Macragge had 500 civilised worlds to draw recruits from, and at that point supplying the Geneseed, arms and equipment wasn’t that much of a problem, it’s hardly remarkable they had a head start on Legions having to carve out their fiefdoms as the Crusade rolled along.


It's never been outright stated, but multiple characters in multiple situations have commented on the massive swell of the UM numbers at the same time that one of the lost Legions were stricken from the record. It's not explicitly stated, but it's about as close to confirmed as it can be without it actually being confirmed IMHO.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/06/20 18:41:38


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Made in ca
Veteran Wolf Guard Squad Leader






I don't think GW has any official behind-the-scenes detailed analysis of the lost two legions. I think their whole identity is just that they are gone, and it's one of the mysteries of the setting. One of those things which will be vaguely hinted at forever, but will never be officially revealed.

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UK

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
If I’m right in thinking, the Ultramarines absorbing other Legions was speculation on behalf of the characters?

According to ABD who wrote the scene originally that was the intention. It was in universe speculation. However it seems to have later been proved to be true (although to what extent is not clear). ADB is a big fan of telling stories "from a certain point of view" but some other authors seem to have taken the idea and gone for a more literal approach with it.

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 jaredb wrote:
I don't think GW has any official behind-the-scenes detailed analysis of the lost two legions. I think their whole identity is just that they are gone, and it's one of the mysteries of the setting. One of those things which will be vaguely hinted at forever, but will never be officially revealed.

Well we know a few things from GW. Both primarchs where found. Both primarchs got their astartes legions. Both primarchs would be removed from all records. The Emperor would gather the primarchs to give a vow never to speak of what happened. Horus was very upset about the vow of silence.

There’s a few things we can assume but don’t strictly know. The Ultramarines played some part in the fate of one of the legions, given that their numbers swelled afterwards. One of the legions faced a battle that turned into a catastrophe. Most primarchs where willing to take the vow and so considered it justified. Some of the primarchs where not hestiant to challenge the Emperor after all but only Horus complained.

Finally there’s the original story of what happened. Which was that the legions sided with Horus. They then betrayed Horus and decided to follow the Emperor again. The Emperor had them stricken from the record as a reward. Instead of going down in history as traitors they would be forgotten. This is not the case anymore but that was how it originally went.

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 Nerak wrote:


Finally there’s the original story of what happened. Which was that the legions sided with Horus. They then betrayed Horus and decided to follow the Emperor again. The Emperor had them stricken from the record as a reward. Instead of going down in history as traitors they would be forgotten. This is not the case anymore but that was how it originally went.


Huh, I didn't know that was the original story. I thought it was so that players could make their own custom legions for their own games.

What's the source for this? I love learning about the random old lore stuff.

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London

 Karhedron wrote:
GW love to tease us with little hints like this. It is definitely deliberate but until it gets confirmed in canon, treat it as amusing speculation.

The closest we get to answer is "The Room at the end of memory" which implies both the 2nd and 11th Primarchs were killed but that Marines from both Legions were inducted into the Ultramarines and Imperial Fists.


Because all the fluff on geneseed is you can mix and match with no problems....
   
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Originally it was a tribute to the lost Romsn legions so there was in-universe room for your Primarch.

I never saw, in 23 years, what Nerak is referencing outside fan fiction.

The absorbing was explained by the author as jealousy. The UM fought highly planned campaigns with relatively low casualties, have an easy implant gene-seed, and a massive pool of recruits and infrastructure available.

Personally, it's one of my favorite parts of the Heresy. The Word Beaters inflicted losses that would cripple any other legion- there were still enough UMs and infrastructure to be full strength (for other legions) in a short period of time. Horus had to authorize a second attack with the remaining World Eaters and Word Bearers just to keep the UMs bottled.

The two best bits in the Heresy for UMs, in my opinion, are in Vengeful Spirit and Mark of Calth. In the former, one of the Mournival watches in amazement as fully engaged Ultramarines fallback under heavy fire in good order as a fighting retreat, and in the other multiple UM units all arrive in the same location with mismatched units and spontaneously launch a coordinated combined-arms assault based only on line-of-sight communication.
   
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Mark of Calth is an anthology of short stories and a bad one at that. I believe you are referencing Know No Fear which does outline the gathering of the Ultramarines and their allies under various commanders quite well.
   
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Is there not a hint that the space wolves have killed a legion befor the heresey in one of the codexes?

   
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The Wolves were used as attack dogs and gained the reputation as the Emperor's executioners, it was never confirmed they killed a Legion or its Primarch.
   
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 Gert wrote:
Mark of Calth is an anthology of short stories and a bad one at that. I believe you are referencing Know No Fear which does outline the gathering of the Ultramarines and their allies under various commanders quite well.


You are correct.

Lot of dead trees have passed since then
   
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I used to really dislike the book but I reread it a few times and it grew on me quite a lot when I moved past "haha chainsword go brrr" and went for more in-depth stories.
   
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 jaredb wrote:
I don't think GW has any official behind-the-scenes detailed analysis of the lost two legions. I think their whole identity is just that they are gone, and it's one of the mysteries of the setting. One of those things which will be vaguely hinted at forever, but will never be officially revealed.

I think we've reached the point where it is reasonably conclusive that one of them gets eliminated during (or as a result of) the Rangdan Xenocides, but the who, the why and the how certainly haven't been explicitly stated as far as I recall.

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 Kanluwen wrote:
This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.

Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army...

tneva82 wrote:
You aren't even trying ty pretend for honest arqument. Open bad faith trolling.
- No reason to keep this here, unless people want to use it for something... 
   
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BrainFireBob wrote:
Originally it was a tribute to the lost Romsn legions so there was in-universe room for your Primarch..

That was a fan theory that I don't think was ever confirmed by the studio, and doesn't actually match up with Roman history.



 Tawnis wrote:
 Nerak wrote:


Finally there’s the original story of what happened. Which was that the legions sided with Horus. They then betrayed Horus and decided to follow the Emperor again. The Emperor had them stricken from the record as a reward. Instead of going down in history as traitors they would be forgotten. This is not the case anymore but that was how it originally went.


Huh, I didn't know that was the original story. I thought it was so that players could make their own custom legions for their own games.

What's the source for this? I love learning about the random old lore stuff.

The 2nd edition Ultramarines codex mentioned the bit about the two Legions being found and fighting in at least the early stages of the Heresy, "probably" on Horus' side.

A recent (I think) comment from Rick Priestly fleshed out the rest - the bit about them turning back to the Emperor and being stricken from records as a reward was how he originally envisaged it, but as far as I know was never published anywhere. And it's right out the window now with the novels changing it to the two being gone long before the Heresy kicked off.

 
   
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I think they have tried to make it clear that whatever happened to these 2 legions happened before the HH so as not to interfere with that story. I struggle to see how they would fit in now.

And there’s always they option that there never were 2 missing legions. If alpharius was found first he might have suggested to the emperor that he claims there were 2 primarchs that were punished for disobedience in order to keep the rest in line. just a bit of head fluff
   
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I’m sure one of the other primarchs says something that hints at Russ having something to do with the “removal” of one.

I think the Primarch is talking about Prospero and says something off hand about it not being the first time Russ had been used in this way?

It might have been the Khan in “Scars”?

 
   
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At one time I would have said there is no way at all that we would ever get an official line on the lost legions (and I actually enjoy the little easter eggs dropped throughout the BL books and army books).
But, after the lore changes of the past few years (and GW's willingness to drop bombshells and destroy worlds - quite literally in the case of WHFB), and things like Primaris and Primarchs coming back to life, I am not so sure.
I would definitely put money on an Emperor miniature at some point, and after that everything is fair game - HH is now a 'main' product line and if it proves lucrative, then we know whichever lore, no matter how 'sacred' in the eyes of long term fans, will be slapped to one side if it means a profitable miniature line.

April Fool 2024 - a silhouette of a massive marine (bigger than a Primaris). "We thought they were lost.. guess who has returned?" Then a month later a new boxset of Space Wolves vs the Legion, or them vs a new Alien line with the Rangdan.

Tell me this is an impossibility?

 insaniak wrote:
BrainFireBob wrote:
Originally it was a tribute to the lost Romsn legions so there was in-universe room for your Primarch..

That was a fan theory that I don't think was ever confirmed by the studio, and doesn't actually match up with Roman history.


I always thought that as Rick Priestly is a massive history buff (doesn't he actually have a masters in Roman history or similar?) it was meant to be a reference to that, or at least was a strong possibility?

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If it was meant as a Roman reference, it's only in a very vague, head-nod sort of way. There were far more than two 'Lost' Roman legions. But I don't recall ever seeing anything from Rick himself on this... it's just something that floats around on the internet as one of those 'everyone knows' sort of things with no actual reference.


And the whole 'It's meant for you to make up your own' line was similarly never a thing said by the studio, and wouldn't have made sense if it was - there has always been room for players to create their own Chapters based on any of the existing Legions or to have their parent Legion unknown even without the Lost Legions existing. And having your Space Marine force actually be one of the Lost never made sense, since having all records expunged while they were still actually running around wouldn't work.

I suspect that up until the Heresy novels, fans put a lot more thought into what was essentially just meant as an interesting footnote than GW ever did.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/06/22 22:33:42


 
   
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On an Express Elevator to Hell!!

There was definitely a quote from Rick about the reason they had done 1000+ chapters in 40k was so that people could come up with their own.

I have to be honest I haven't seen the same thing said about the two lost legions in 30k, and I wonder if it a result of people conflating the quote about the 40k marine chapters.

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This video discusses the 2 missing legions:

https://youtu.be/wL39MSbwTOg

But more interesting is that Rick Priestly commented on the video saying this:


Rick Priestley
3 weeks ago
Interesting piece and lot's of interesting and credible theories there! I have no more idea than anyone else what the truth of the matter is, of course. The backstory has certainly evolved and acquired some mass of detail since I first drew up that list of Space Marine Chapters and their Primarchs. I'm not really familiar with a lot of that material either, but it's nice to know that the spirit of the thing has been preserved and even nurtured. I will make just one observation - and it's about the intent of the missing legions - where I think GW have perhaps taken a slightly different tack than I had in mind. Not that this matters of course, and I appreciate that in creating a series of books about the Heresy a lot of things I always intended to be unknowable or semi-mythical had to be addressed directly; something I could never have foreseen when I wrote Rogue Trader. The intent is this: that the removal of records and obliteration of the memory of these Lost Legions was not a punishment but a reward - rather than being purged they were being absolved - and this was based on the assumption they had done something utterly terrible (naturally!) but then done something equally positive to earn redemption. Or think of it as a stain that cannot be erased except by extinction. The Chaos Chapters are unforgiven - out and out bad guys - but the Lost Legions, whatever their deeds, have been forgiven and the stain upon their reputation erased with their memory. At least that was the idea... but times change don't they


Also this: https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/918rtp/followup_interview_with_rick_priestley/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/07/04 20:16:27


 
   
Made in gb
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that's very interesting but as he said time change. I sent think his original vision works because the traitor legions have suffered the same fate int he las 10k millennia, erased from history. Not many people (in the context of the galaxy) know about the traitor legions or the HH. This was in one of Horus's visions, h say the huge towering statues of just the 8 loyalist primarchs.

   
 
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