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Made in us
Focused Fire Warrior





Dunn, NC

It was a universal nerf to everyone. Get rid of it.

Tau
Votann
World Eaters
Khorne Daemons
Custodes 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Well if they didn't overbuff everyone else it wouldn't be needed.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





 Gray1378 wrote:
It was a universal nerf to everyone. Get rid of it.

Yes. Definitely. And then maybe get rid of the extra pip of AP various weapons received this edition. And then maybe get rid of various doctrine-level benefits and stratagems that just make things more lethal without making them more interesting.


ATTENTION
. Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
 
   
Made in us
Neophyte undergoing Ritual of Detestation





Maybe 10th will be good.
   
Made in us
Malicious Mutant Scum




It’s not a nerf to the recipients.
   
Made in us
Crazed Spirit of the Defiler





Someone is upset they can’t just point, click, and delete armor and heavy infantry lol.

Iron within, Iron without 
   
Made in us
Morally-Flexible Malleus Hearing Whispers




10th will be even worse than 9th. If only because this is easily the most successful variant of 40k in it's history. They shattered company records with sales this edition. No way that doesn't lead to doubling down on power creep and drip feed non-digital codexes.
   
Made in ca
Librarian with Freaky Familiar






Old AP system made is to you did not need things like AoC.

To many unpainted models to count. 
   
Made in it
Waaagh! Ork Warboss




Italy

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Old AP system made is to you did not need things like AoC.


With the old AP system a lot of armies spammed weapons that bypassed marine saves completely though. So in order to compete marines got free stuff worthy of hundreds of points. So no, in the old system marines needed much greater band aids than AoC.

With the new system, even without AoC, such marines kept a nice 4+ or 5+ save against the very same weapons that used to completely negate their save, depending of being in cover or not. Which is a massive benefit, not to mention their 2nd or even 3rd wound (hello termies) gained through the editions.

I think AoC was an overreaction to a few recent overpowered builds, and completely unneeded.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/06/27 17:23:04


 
   
Made in ca
Librarian with Freaky Familiar






The free crap from formations was not a bandaid it was just a broken system they introduced. The old AP system existed since 3rd to 7th with out major issues.

The new rending system is reasonable for the vast majority of the lethality problems in the game right now. As weapons taht prior to it would have no impact on the armor saves of some units now effect everything.
Prior system you payed the points for an AP 3 weapon because it dealt with AP3 and did not effect sv 2 because you had to bring specific weapons designed to penetrate sv2.
Now, weapons that were AP3 became AP -1 which not only is effective agianst sv3 but is also effective against sv 2 bringing it to sv3. That did not exist in prior systems.

Prior systems were about bringing the right weapon for the right job, not catch all like it is now.
8th and 9 has had more bandaid fixes becuase of the busted rending system then anything else. We have seen GW
increase wounds because things died to fast
Then increase damage because things did not die fast enough
Then hand out invulns and can only wound on 4+
Then things that ignored invulns,
Then things that ingored ap -1
now we are seeing AoC getting applied everywhere.

The rend ap system for 40k is a failed experiment.

To many unpainted models to count. 
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran





Agreed, it's a ridiculous rule in an ever more ridiculous edition. Notice how little salt there is about AoC too, because such a large portion of the player base benefits from it. They only cry out when they are being inconvenienced. For the factions that don't have broken amounts of AP or AoC, it's a net negative.
   
Made in it
Waaagh! Ork Warboss




Italy

 Backspacehacker wrote:
The free crap from formations was not a bandaid it was just a broken system they introduced. The old AP system existed since 3rd to 7th with out major issues.



Without major issues you say? I play since 3rd and SM players complained about their models being too squishy since I remember. In fact it was much easier than now, even ignoring AoC, to completely counter 3+ save armies and let them be without save. I know I spammed rokkits and klaws in my orks army because of that, and in 3rd also burnas (which completely bypassed any armour save in combat, as power weapons). Couldn't do anything like that since 8th and had to deal with the fact that MEQs and TEQs always had a save, and not a bad one at 4+ or 5+. But that made the game much more TAC shaped.

Another major issue was that some weapons were completely useless against some armies, so if you knew in advance what factions you were going to face you avoided them completely. Now former AP4 weapons and even some buffed AP5 ones, that were completely useless against several factions, have become AP-1 which might be useful against anyone, except the AoC crap messed that too. With the current system, AoC aside, tailoring is much less incentivized since mid AP weapons have some value against anyone and that's a good thing.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/06/27 19:28:06


 
   
Made in mx
Towering Hierophant Bio-Titan




Mexico

The old AP system broke during 5th when IG introduced spamable templates with AP3 and AP2.

And then broke even more with grav weapons, and D weapons. By the end of 7th competitive armies were running with broken snap fire rules and rerolleable 2++ while everything else died to a million grav shots or D shots.

The weaknesses of the old AP system and the new AP system is the same, GW cannot stop themselves from AP creep.
   
Made in ca
Librarian with Freaky Familiar






Except we are facing more balance issues in this ed then we have seen since late 7th, if not worse because of this AP system creating lethality across the board.

Im not gonna deny that some armies had access to easy AP3 or AP2, but the point still remains that the AP3 weapon would apply its effect of being ap 3 to JUST a sv3 or worse model, you had to bring AP 2 to deal with Sv 3 models.

The current rending system has reduced the survivability of all Sv2 models its why anymore armor saves mean nothing any more in the game, its why things like tanks get completely obliterated this edtion because most of them dont have an invuln to fall back on.

Its why terminators were getting so stomped because you were paying for a unit that had a 2+ save but majority of the time you just end up having to take your invuln against weapons that previously would not have effected you in such a way. You pay for a 2+ just to get rended to a 3+ from chaff units on the field, tahts not good for balance at all.

AoC is just another interation of GW bandaid fixing the broken experiment that was the rending system for 40k. The old system made it so weapon filled a role.

Now you can enjoy this system over the old, because when it first came out and rending was not handed out like candy like is now, it was fine. but GW has power creeped the ap system so badly, that its the core of the majority of problems with 9th lethality.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Tyran wrote:
The old AP system broke during 5th when IG introduced spamable templates with AP3 and AP2.

And then broke even more with grav weapons, and D weapons. By the end of 7th competitive armies were running with broken snap fire rules and rerolleable 2++ while everything else died to a million grav shots or D shots.

The weaknesses of the old AP system and the new AP system is the same, GW cannot stop themselves from AP creep.


Now this i agree with because holy crap they really really cant.
Spamming of D and the profile of grav is a whole other issue. I agree the spamming of D was stupid, and grav never should have even had AP, it should have been AP - but would wound based on your Armor save.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/06/27 19:35:23


To many unpainted models to count. 
   
Made in mx
Towering Hierophant Bio-Titan




Mexico

I feel that stating that the balance of 9th is worse than 7th is really forgetting how bad the end of 7th was.

Sure the game is more lethal now, but that is because durability in at the end of 7th was purely dependant on access to invisibility, flying or rerolleable 2+ invulnerable saves.

Terminators? They died because grav. Tanks? Died because grav and D. Monsters? Died because grav and D. Even Riptides with 3++ and FNP just disintegrated.

And not all armies had access to grav or D or invisibility or 2++ rerolleable, so there was pretty much no diversity at all.

9th may be hyper lethal, buy we do see a greater degree of diversity in tournaments.
   
Made in ca
Librarian with Freaky Familiar






Ill give you that we do see a greater diversity in tournaments over 7th, as late 7th was just asinine.

In terms of balance between the two, im of the opinion that the balance of 9th is still worth then the balance of 7th over all, baring the tail end of 7th with the introduction of angels of death, magnus, and yenari thats when the game went absolutely sidewise

To many unpainted models to count. 
   
Made in it
Waaagh! Ork Warboss




Italy

Problems with lethality in 9th are caused by the fact that weapons fire a bazillion of shots compared to older edition, and have a huge amount of tools to enhance their power: re-rolls, S/AP/D modfiers, to hit/wound modifers, fighting/firing twice, etc... Also, there are mortal wounds on top of that.

Consider a dakkajet, a decent but far from being overpowered unit. At 120 points the thing fires 36-42 shots. A megatrakk scrapjet fires 30ish shots during the speedwaaagh. A full squad of 9 bikes fires 108 shots during the speedwaaagh, but only 27 re-rollable shots in 3rd-7th. In 3rd-5th my rokkit spam meant 20ish shots, now anti tank spam from the same or samey weapons means 100+ shots.

A razorback with twin assault cannon fired 4 re-rollable shots in 3rd, then 6, now 12.

So no, I don't believe that lethality has something to do with the new AP system. Not for a second. In fact I believe it reduced lethality since lots of the units got a save where they didn't have it. Heck I even roll T-shirt saves for my orks now, since most basic weapons are AP0, while everything bypassed that 6+ in 3rd-7th. Same with 5+ save dudes.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/06/27 20:08:28


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Backspacehacker wrote:
Except we are facing more balance issues in this ed then we have seen since late 7th, if not worse because of this AP system creating lethality across the board.

Im not gonna deny that some armies had access to easy AP3 or AP2

LOL did you type this unironically? EVERY army had ease of access to AP2. Let's just skip AP3, because AP2 was THAT much more common to find.
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut





If they are going to keep the existing AP rules, then the fix for AoC is to go back and strip out all the AP values and reduce them severely.

This is always the problem, they rely too heavily on AP being a variable stat, when it's effects are so large that it can't afford to be.

AP0 should be the most common.
AP-1 should be an anti infantry special/heavy weapon
AP-2 should ben an Anti tank heavy weapon
AP-3 should be a heavier anti tank heavy weapon

Anything beyond this should be a superheavy weapon or a unique weapon.

there should be no standard infantry weapon with an AP value - NONE.

If an infantry weapon is noted as having a strong penetrating characteristic, then it should get something like 'on a 6 to wound the target gets a -1 AP' or something similar. There should not be any standard infantry weapon with an AP value, they are too common and too spammable to have it.

The AP modifier system is fine so long as you aren't lazy with your weapon profiles and use it as a way to differentiate weapons.

It should be a limited resource that only appears in exceptional circumstances.



This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/07/06 05:31:22


   
Made in it
Waaagh! Ork Warboss




Italy

I don't know, by this logic also high armour save should be rare then. No infantry should have 2+ or even 3+, especially if they already have stats such as T5 and 3W. Otherwise they'd need to double their points cost.

In fact the AP modifier system worked great for ages in WHFB where both the high AP and the high armour saves were rare.

I think AP on troops is ok, it's the sheer volume of dice and tools to enhance the results that make that shooting too deadly. When a 2000 points army can roll 200-400 dice turn 1 (sometimes even more) in the shooting phase alone that's the problem, not the easy access to AP. My orks, a mid tier army at most, fire 42 shots with a dakkajet, 108 with a unit of 9 bikes and 90ish with the 3 scrapjets, under the speedwaaagh. That's almost 250 shots with only 645 points of stuff (2 FA and a flyer) and not even my whole typical shooting phase. Even without speedwaaagh it's still 200ish shots from those units. That's insane.

The easy access to AP only highlights the real problem as it's just part of it, which is the massive dice rolling and the tools to enhance the results. Rolling buckets of dice for little to no effect is even worse than having a very high lethality.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/07/06 06:37:41


 
   
Made in es
Regular Dakkanaut





I have mixed feelings with this rule. Marines and the such getting some extra durability is fine on my book. However, it could have been better implemented.

IMO, capping AoC to str7 or less would make more sense. That way, anti-tank will still go through the armour in the same way as before while making them more resilient against anti infantry weapons. Even could be argued to apply the cap only to infantry and bikes, leaving vehicles with the full rule.

Some anti tank weapons with -2 currently don't reduce the save at all against a marine in cover.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Blackie wrote:
I don't know, by this logic also high armour save should be rare then. No infantry should have 2+ or even 3+, especially if they already have stats such as T5 and 3W. Otherwise they'd need to double their points cost.

In fact the AP modifier system worked great for ages in WHFB where both the high AP and the high armour saves were rare.

I think AP on troops is ok, it's the sheer volume of dice and tools to enhance the results that make that shooting too deadly. When a 2000 points army can roll 200-400 dice turn 1 (sometimes even more) in the shooting phase alone that's the problem, not the easy access to AP. My orks, a mid tier army at most, fire 42 shots with a dakkajet, 108 with a unit of 9 bikes and 90ish with the 3 scrapjets, under the speedwaaagh. That's almost 250 shots with only 645 points of stuff (2 FA and a flyer) and not even my whole typical shooting phase. Even without speedwaaagh it's still 200ish shots from those units. That's insane.

The easy access to AP only highlights the real problem as it's just part of it, which is the massive dice rolling and the tools to enhance the results. Rolling buckets of dice for little to no effect is even worse than having a very high lethality.


I agree on the insane amount of dice rolling that the game requires nowadays. Halving the number of shoots and wounds would feel pretty much the same while making the game much faster. 3h is the minimum you need to play a game and that puts off a lot of the player base.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/07/14 06:31:20


 
   
Made in ca
Heroic Senior Officer





Krieg! What a hole...

Kill the AoC rule, maintain the AP. Pew pew.

The way my precious Scions went from ignoring most armor saves to merely knocking 1 point of armor on Marines is saddening to me.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/07/17 18:32:53


Member of 40k Montreal There is only war in Montreal
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Savageconvoy wrote:
Snookie gives birth to Heavy Gun drone squad. Someone says they are overpowered. World ends.

 
   
Made in ca
Sagitarius with a Big F'in Gun




Canada,eh

The AOC rule is GW admitting they handed out way too much AP, however they only care how it affects Imperial armies. I'd much rather there just being an edition wide rule to reduce all AP on weapon profiles better then -2 instead of this extra layer of rule bloat. Good lord Space Marines have how many snowflake rules to make them relevant? AOC, Bolter Fire, Doctrines, Charge attack bonus, Know no Fear and others? This is formations 7th ed bad. The potential for hard counters to lists, easy secondaries for perceived weak armies and strats throwing gotcha moments like candy. Feels the same.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/07/17 18:39:41





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Made in ca
Gargantuan Gargant






While I think that AP creep is real and it made armour saves more and more irrelevant (and then invuln saves themselves became less important because of the weight of fire AND mortal wounds/ignore invuln save weaponry becoming more commonplace), AoC just divides the game more into a case of "haves and have-nots", where armies like Guard and Orks disproportionately get affected negatively since a lot of their key weaponry are closer to the AP-1 and AP-2 area with a few areas of exception for AP-3 or better weaponry. It's a very band aid fixture that just polarizes SM choices even more into terminator bricks and cover hugging units. There's not enough nuance and feels like it penalizes opponents for not bringing the absolutely maximum amount of AP weapons you can even if it's super cost efficient since otherwise your weapons may as well not have AP (case in point, big choppas or hotshot lasguns).
   
Made in in
[MOD]
Otiose in a Niche






Hyderabad, India

I was worried this was a political thread about Congresswoman Ocasio-Cortez for a minute.

Carry on.

 
   
Made in us
Powerful Phoenix Lord





Dallas area, TX

My biggest issue with AoC is that it's yet another blanket rule on top dozens of others.
Wasn't the POINT of 8th ed to streamline the rules so that everything you need for any unit is on a single datasheet?

I much prefer rules that are just stat buffs instead of needlessly inflated special condition rules.
Chaos Marines getting +1A built into their profiles INSTEAD of Hateful Assault (which only applied under specific conditions) is a wonderful example. More like this GW!

It would be so much better if they just updated all the relevant profiles with +1 to existing armour saves.

-

-

   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




The better approach would definitely have been to adjust all the various weapons they've buffed over time so AP -1 was much less common than it is. That change would also help out other armies on top of the various power armour factions. It's beyond stupid that a month or so before the AoC change GW were talking about how great the changes to the Fleshborer were and how it's now much more deadly, only to then publish a blanket rule to compensate for how lethal the game has become.

Assuming that's too big a change, and AoC has to stay in some fashion, I think they should at least change it to not work if you're in cover. It already doesn't apply to models with shields that give +1 save so this would have a similar effect. It would also match thematically, as standing in the open taking fire is showing contempt for the enemy and trusting int he Emperor/Chaos Gods to protect you.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





 Galef wrote:
My biggest issue with AoC is that it's yet another blanket rule on top dozens of others.
Wasn't the POINT of 8th ed to streamline the rules so that everything you need for any unit is on a single datasheet?

I much prefer rules that are just stat buffs instead of needlessly inflated special condition rules.
Chaos Marines getting +1A built into their profiles INSTEAD of Hateful Assault (which only applied under specific conditions) is a wonderful example. More like this GW!

It would be so much better if they just updated all the relevant profiles with +1 to existing armour saves.

-

-


Rend resistance is the next logical step after introducing a proper modifier system. I think its a good rule to add to the game, but it should definitely be something added into statlines rather than being given a special name an applied the way it has been.
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




 LunarSol wrote:
 Galef wrote:
My biggest issue with AoC is that it's yet another blanket rule on top dozens of others.
Wasn't the POINT of 8th ed to streamline the rules so that everything you need for any unit is on a single datasheet?

I much prefer rules that are just stat buffs instead of needlessly inflated special condition rules.
Chaos Marines getting +1A built into their profiles INSTEAD of Hateful Assault (which only applied under specific conditions) is a wonderful example. More like this GW!

It would be so much better if they just updated all the relevant profiles with +1 to existing armour saves.

-

-


Rend resistance is the next logical step after introducing a proper modifier system. I think its a good rule to add to the game, but it should definitely be something added into statlines rather than being given a special name an applied the way it has been.


The idea I like the most for this system is having "weight classes" for armor and baking in what level of Armor a weapon beats into its stats. Firing into a higher class of armor means there's no AP applied, and getting fired on by a weapon 2 AP classes above yours means you do not get an armor save at all.


You have a certain number of "weight classes". The one I've mostly seen is 3.
AP/AI - Anti-personnel/Anti-Infantry: these weapons only beat the armor of Infantry/cavalry models. Basically, if it's a dude on foot or on a horse, it'll beat its armor, and won't do anything to anything in a higher weight class.
AT - Anti-Tank: Somewhat a misnomer, but it sounds cooler so it's okay. Anti-tank Weapons apply their AP value to anything that is a Vehicle, but not anything with the Titanic Keyword. From the most mighty Leman Russ, to the most ramshackle trukk. AT weapons are generally the most powerful weapons Infantry are able to get their hands on, and also the weakest weapons that Larger Vehicles like Titans and Baneblades will typically have access to.
TK - Titan-Killer: These are the most powerful weapons in the game. Particularly strong and capable, nothing will escape their wrath. These apply their AP to everything in the game. These weapons when on Vehicles should be specialized enough that they typically aren't super points efficient unless fighting Titans.
Special 4th class I thought of: OB - Obliteration: This is for weapons like Titan Meltas(I assume those are a thing). These just count as an even higher class of AP than even TK weapons. So Tanks wouldn't be getting an armor save against them either.

I think this is a very elegant way of making AP not just apply to everything while also not being particularly complex or unintuitive. I suppose there might be some issues, like potentially if one weapon is AI -2 and one weapon is AT -2 them feeling the same just shooting at Infantry, but that's not really something that I think will be a big issue because they'll feel super different shooting at tanks.

   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





Gabe Lincoln wrote:
 LunarSol wrote:
 Galef wrote:
My biggest issue with AoC is that it's yet another blanket rule on top dozens of others.
Wasn't the POINT of 8th ed to streamline the rules so that everything you need for any unit is on a single datasheet?

I much prefer rules that are just stat buffs instead of needlessly inflated special condition rules.
Chaos Marines getting +1A built into their profiles INSTEAD of Hateful Assault (which only applied under specific conditions) is a wonderful example. More like this GW!

It would be so much better if they just updated all the relevant profiles with +1 to existing armour saves.

-

-


Rend resistance is the next logical step after introducing a proper modifier system. I think its a good rule to add to the game, but it should definitely be something added into statlines rather than being given a special name an applied the way it has been.


The idea I like the most for this system is having "weight classes" for armor and baking in what level of Armor a weapon beats into its stats. Firing into a higher class of armor means there's no AP applied, and getting fired on by a weapon 2 AP classes above yours means you do not get an armor save at all.


You have a certain number of "weight classes". The one I've mostly seen is 3.
AP/AI - Anti-personnel/Anti-Infantry: these weapons only beat the armor of Infantry/cavalry models. Basically, if it's a dude on foot or on a horse, it'll beat its armor, and won't do anything to anything in a higher weight class.
AT - Anti-Tank: Somewhat a misnomer, but it sounds cooler so it's okay. Anti-tank Weapons apply their AP value to anything that is a Vehicle, but not anything with the Titanic Keyword. From the most mighty Leman Russ, to the most ramshackle trukk. AT weapons are generally the most powerful weapons Infantry are able to get their hands on, and also the weakest weapons that Larger Vehicles like Titans and Baneblades will typically have access to.
TK - Titan-Killer: These are the most powerful weapons in the game. Particularly strong and capable, nothing will escape their wrath. These apply their AP to everything in the game. These weapons when on Vehicles should be specialized enough that they typically aren't super points efficient unless fighting Titans.
Special 4th class I thought of: OB - Obliteration: This is for weapons like Titan Meltas(I assume those are a thing). These just count as an even higher class of AP than even TK weapons. So Tanks wouldn't be getting an armor save against them either.

I think this is a very elegant way of making AP not just apply to everything while also not being particularly complex or unintuitive. I suppose there might be some issues, like potentially if one weapon is AI -2 and one weapon is AT -2 them feeling the same just shooting at Infantry, but that's not really something that I think will be a big issue because they'll feel super different shooting at tanks.



That should be fairly easy to build into the strength of the attack. Remember autodeath rule, if Sx2>T then autokill. So move that to AoC. If Sx2>T, no AoC.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
You could add an extra pip of ap if Sx3>T for instance

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/07/20 10:16:26


 
   
 
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