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Made in nl
Regular Dakkanaut





Shade paints, hmmm, not sure I've got the hang of them and not sure if they are a good thing. Following the instructions I've seen I try to avoid pooling but when I do that what I get is a pretty uniform covering all over the colours in question without much sense of shading. So then all it's done has actually changed the colour of the paint and made it darker isn't it? Also very often I find I've appleid too much and end up with a glossy finish which is really annoying. When I then apply layers on top the darkest recesses have this sheen to them that I don't want. Am I doing something wrong? Should I stop using them altogether? What are your thoughts (I know that Squidmar says never to use them).

I remember painting back in the 90s when Citadel used to have an ink range for washes. In my hazy memory these seemed to work much better and do what it seems that shade paints are supposed to do. Do people still wash with inks?
   
Made in us
Scarred Ultramarine Tyrannic War Veteran






Maple Valley, Washington, Holy Terra

I still use (slightly diluted) inks for shading more often than not. Different types of paints and inks are likely to have different levels of glossiness. I usually go over everything with varnish at the end to make everything pretty uniformly matte.

"Calgar hates Tyranids."

Your #1 Fan  
   
Made in us
Utilizing Careful Highlighting





Tangentville, New Jersey

A little spray varnish goes a long way.


 
   
Made in au
Grizzled Space Wolves Great Wolf





I still use inks, but I use them a bit like contrast paints (for speed painting when I want a one-coat solution over a white undercoat).

In general, inks (and especially GW's old inks from the 90's that you mentioned) are harder to use than modern Shades (or their alternatives from Vallejo and Army Painter). I think the difficulty in laying down a smooth coat is why GW went away from inks and towards washes/shades in the first place.

I still also use shades a lot, they have their purpose but yes, it's hard to avoid uneven coverage. My two techniques are either to apply very heavily and then soak up the excess, OR apply directly to the crevices, using the brush like a mop to sweep the paint into the crevice and create a bit of a blend between the panel and the crevice.

The reason Squidmar says "don't use washes/etc" is because if you want to paint to a higher standard you need to learn how to paint volumes, rather than just letting the wash settle where it wants to settle you instead want to identify where ambient light will illuminate and cast shadows, and manually paint those in rather than relying on washes.

I tend to be more of a speed painter, I don't usually paint display-quality models... but Squidmar's method is really good and for him it actually looks like quite a fast way of painting because he uses scratchy brush strokes to create contrast rather than spending a lot of time doing blending. I dunno how long it takes to learn to paint like that.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/06/25 22:46:40


 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





The trick to using GW shades is to over-highlight, and then use the shades to bring the color down to the end result you want. In that, it functions as much as a glaze unifying the colors as a shade

CHAOS! PANIC! DISORDER!
My job here is done. 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





I think GW shades are good but I also went through a stage of over applying and getting pooling.

One way I have found is to use a big brush, like the GW shade brush, apply a coat of the shade to the area and then if you get any pooling use a clean brush and did the tip into the pool and it will soak up the excess shade.

Never had a glossy finish, are you using a gloss shade?
   
Made in gb
Thane of Dol Guldur





Bodt

If you're using shades as a wash that you put all over a section of model, you're going to have to go back and do some clean up with your base tones once it dries, that's just an inevitability.

Heresy World Eaters/Emperors Children

Instagram: nagrakali_love_songs 
   
Made in us
Grumpy Longbeard






Always like to share this one


 
   
Made in ca
Librarian with Freaky Familiar






Ok listen here my man im about to drop some knowelge on you that will make your mind blow with how amazing it is, and trust me its a still worth learning.

First things first, throw away your shade washes and acrylic washes. We are stepping up your shading and washing game my man.

Oil washes. Thats right, Oil paint washes because they do everything a shade wash will but 10x better.
Go out and order youself a jug of mineral spirits and a tube of black oil paints, you can do this with any oil paint as well. paint your model then make an oil wash and use it. Mineral spirits has a much lower surface tention then acrylic washes which are water based because of this you dont get pool, the oil washes suck right into the cracks and creveses of the model

The best part about them is, you can come back in after they dry, with a mackup applicator sponge with just a dab or mineral spirits on it and rub away excess wash you dont want.

Here is a video of an oil wash.

Reject acrylic, embrace oil https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SPjUppp-bIw

To many unpainted models to count. 
   
Made in us
Storm Trooper with Maglight



Cadia

Oil washes are great but just be aware that the long drying time is a double edged sword. It's great for manipulating the effect without worrying about having to be fast enough to beat the drying time, it's not so great when you have to put a model aside for a week or more before you can touch it without rubbing off the oil layer. I love oil washes but I'd only ever use them as the last step in the process. If you want something to use mid-process you want to stick with acrylics.

THE PLANET BROKE BEFORE THE GUARD! 
   
Made in gb
Thane of Dol Guldur





Bodt

Oil washes also have their own issues. Getting the right consistency and smoothness has its own learning curve, and clean up can be just as difficult as with acryllic, just in a slightly different way.

Heresy World Eaters/Emperors Children

Instagram: nagrakali_love_songs 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





yeah I think oil washes are great but I barely find the time to paint let alone make my own paints. I want off the shelf.

the other option is to use more contrast paints as your base colour as they will do the shade for you and then layer up
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





 Backspacehacker wrote:
Ok listen here my man im about to drop some knowelge on you that will make your mind blow with how amazing it is, and trust me its a still worth learning.

First things first, throw away your shade washes and acrylic washes. We are stepping up your shading and washing game my man.

Oil washes. Thats right, Oil paint washes because they do everything a shade wash will but 10x better.
Go out and order youself a jug of mineral spirits and a tube of black oil paints, you can do this with any oil paint as well. paint your model then make an oil wash and use it. Mineral spirits has a much lower surface tention then acrylic washes which are water based because of this you dont get pool, the oil washes suck right into the cracks and creveses of the model

The best part about them is, you can come back in after they dry, with a mackup applicator sponge with just a dab or mineral spirits on it and rub away excess wash you dont want.

Here is a video of an oil wash.

Reject acrylic, embrace oil https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SPjUppp-bIw


And make sure you have plenty of ventilation, as mineral spirits are not particularly good for the lungs.

CHAOS! PANIC! DISORDER!
My job here is done. 
   
Made in ca
Librarian with Freaky Familiar






It really does not take long to mix up a wash from oil paints the first few times yeah because you are getting the hang of it but after you keep doing it it eventually becomes second nature and you can super easy tell by just the look and way the mix acts.

I would strongly recommend giving it a go and learning the skill because oil washes can so far out compete any acrylic wash that its not even funny.

A little bit of time investment will end up giving you a skill that has such a high ceiling of potential when compared to acrylic washes.

To many unpainted models to count. 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





 Backspacehacker wrote:
It really does not take long to mix up a wash from oil paints the first few times yeah because you are getting the hang of it but after you keep doing it it eventually becomes second nature and you can super easy tell by just the look and way the mix acts.

I would strongly recommend giving it a go and learning the skill because oil washes can so far out compete any acrylic wash that its not even funny.

A little bit of time investment will end up giving you a skill that has such a high ceiling of potential when compared to acrylic washes.


Yes, oil washes are a great final step to finish off a centerpiece or display mini.

For rank & file, I find it to be more problem than practical, with that extended drying time. And that goes double with horde armies when you're doing twenty or more at once.

YMMV, of course.

CHAOS! PANIC! DISORDER!
My job here is done. 
   
Made in ca
Librarian with Freaky Familiar






Well thats the thing about that, and this is the case for all techniques in the hobby, with practice comes speed.

The more you do it, the more you understand it, and know exactly what and how to do it, so taht even on large horde armies its a very quick process.

You simply do a sloppy wash over everything, let it sit for like 15 min, come back with a sponge and dab off what you dont need.

I would say give it a go OP, push your boundaries, and try something new. Plus if thats not an incentive, you can spend about 15 bucks to get a galon of mineral spirits, and a tube of oil paint, and you will have enough to make wash for the rest of your life, and only need to buy another tube of anotehr color to make what you like

OH the other added benifit to oil paints and washs is you can make super awesome custom washes because oil paint blends like not other.

To many unpainted models to count. 
   
Made in au
Grizzled Space Wolves Great Wolf





I don't particularly like oil washes because of the harsh solvents that are required, as much as I like oils in general, I don't use them much for washes.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/06/29 03:42:53


 
   
Made in ca
Librarian with Freaky Familiar






Ahhh c'mon what's a few harmful chemicals now and then
I use alclad II Candy apple red and it has a warning saying "can cause birth defects" but jokes on them, I'm already born

To many unpainted models to count. 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




I use oil paints a lot when I’m doing armour modelling, great for pin washes and filters, but the drying time is a pain for painting squads of minis, and the need for varnishing eats up a lot of time. I just prefer acrylic washes for smaller projects like army painting, yes oil washes are cheaper in the long run but I already have acrylic washes and the price isn’t astronomical compared to what else you’re paying for in this hobby. Oil washes are another tool in the box but not worth throwing out the whole tool set over IMHO.

Also if you buy mineral spirits that are odourless doesn’t mean they aren’t harmful as well.
   
Made in gb
Thane of Dol Guldur





Bodt

I don't have an issue with mineral spirits. I use a tiny amount of non odourless in an old gw pot and it causes no issues using it in my living room. I fail to see why everyone freaks out about ventilation. How much of the stuff are you using?

Heresy World Eaters/Emperors Children

Instagram: nagrakali_love_songs 
   
Made in us
Storm Trooper with Maglight



Cadia

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
I don't particularly like oil washes because of the harsh solvents that are required, as much as I like oils in general, I don't use them much for washes.


FYI: water soluble oil paints exist.

THE PLANET BROKE BEFORE THE GUARD! 
   
Made in ca
Librarian with Freaky Familiar






 queen_annes_revenge wrote:
I don't have an issue with mineral spirits. I use a tiny amount of non odourless in an old gw pot and it causes no issues using it in my living room. I fail to see why everyone freaks out about ventilation. How much of the stuff are you using?


This is more or less what i do, or rather use. I use odourless thinner in a big jug, i pour it into a dixy cup, then just drag out what i need from the cup into a metal pallet and mix my wash there.

To many unpainted models to count. 
   
Made in au
Grizzled Space Wolves Great Wolf





 queen_annes_revenge wrote:
I don't have an issue with mineral spirits. I use a tiny amount of non odourless in an old gw pot and it causes no issues using it in my living room. I fail to see why everyone freaks out about ventilation. How much of the stuff are you using?


Some people have a more immediate reactions than others, some people can sit in a room exposed to a certain chemical while others struggle to enter, and the roles may be reversed if you swap out the chemicals. Though even if you don't have an immediate reaction doesn't mean it's not doing harm.

I have a pretty immediate negative reaction to mineral spirits, and a slower more prolonged reaction to odourless thinners. I doubt it's doing long term harm, but who knows these days, most things aren't researched as well as they should be and chemicals are continuously added to the no-no list, so if something gives me a reaction or gives someone I'm working with a reaction my natural approach is to minimise exposure as much as possible.

These days I tend to be over cautious with chemical exposure, but I'd rather be over cautious now and healthy tomorrow than careless now and dealing with whatever health issues tomorrow. I know too many people who have had injuries of ignorance related to exposure of a range of different chemicals. Also, I'm super careful if there's going to be kids around, as they can be so much more susceptible but also unknowing.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/06/30 00:53:01


 
   
Made in gb
Thane of Dol Guldur





Bodt

Fair enough. I've always found an open window suffices for a lot of things, but I suppose if you have reactions to stuff then you should be cautious. You don't need much in terms on mineral spirits to use paints though. Obviously if I had a whole bottom open for whatever reason I would be using ventilation.

Heresy World Eaters/Emperors Children

Instagram: nagrakali_love_songs 
   
Made in us
Storm Trooper with Maglight



Cadia

I'll mention again that water soluble oil paints are a thing and require no solvents at all to use. They may behave slightly differently when used with water instead of mineral spirits but you still get the same advantages of blending and long drying times like traditional oil paints. If you're concerned about chemical issues you should try using them.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/06/30 09:13:49


THE PLANET BROKE BEFORE THE GUARD! 
   
Made in au
Grizzled Space Wolves Great Wolf





CadianSgtBob wrote:
I'll mention again that water soluble oil paints are a thing and require no solvents at all to use. They may behave slightly differently when used with water instead of mineral spirits but you still get the same advantages of blending and long drying times like traditional oil paints. If you're concerned about chemical issues you should try using them.


Sorry I did see your previous post and meant to reply but forgot.

I actually have some already, I need to buy some more. I bought an Art Spectrum branded one and found that it was more "water cleanable" than "water thin-able". Thinned to a wash like consistency with water it was not smooth, it wouldn't wick itself into the crevices and it had a grainy finish to it, it felt a bit like moving muddy water around the model. Similar to an oil wash it could be cleaned up after being applied, but the finish was rough.

I bought another one, a Raw Umber, slightly more expensive from Winsor and Newton. I think it's still well below the quality of their regular oils though (Winton and Artist ranges) as many colours which are labelled "opaque" in their Winton range are labelled "transparent" in the water mixable range. I had planned to buy a whole starter set, but when I saw that it put me off (as I do use oils a bit in an unthinned capacity and opacity is really important for that).

The W&N Raw Umber is a bit smoother when thinned to a wash than the Art Spectrum paint was, but it's still grainy and doesn't wick into the crevices and unfortunately Raw Umber is a bit too light for the models I was painting. I might grab another W&N water mixable paint that's a bit darker and see what it's like, but I don't expect it to be as nice as regular oils.

You can actually clean up brushes used with oil paints with water... yes, even the non-water mixable variety... you just have to use soap so that the water mixes with the oil. I don't waste my money on brush soap for that purpose (since you'll be using a lot of it), I use a bar of hand soap (not liquid hand soap, liquid hand soap sucks).

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/06/30 11:01:20


 
   
Made in eu
Frenzied Berserker Terminator




Southampton, UK

 queen_annes_revenge wrote:
Obviously if I had a whole bottom open for whatever reason I would be using ventilation.


   
Made in gb
Thane of Dol Guldur





Bodt

Haha yeah... Wait I mean damn autocorrect!

Heresy World Eaters/Emperors Children

Instagram: nagrakali_love_songs 
   
Made in us
Storm Trooper with Maglight



Cadia

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
The W&N Raw Umber is a bit smoother when thinned to a wash than the Art Spectrum paint was, but it's still grainy and doesn't wick into the crevices and unfortunately Raw Umber is a bit too light for the models I was painting. I might grab another W&N water mixable paint that's a bit darker and see what it's like, but I don't expect it to be as nice as regular oils.


W&N burnt umber is the one I've used and might be what you're looking for. You do get a bit of that grainy/muddy look if you inspect the model really closely but IMO that's not a bad thing if you're looking for a more subdued and weathered look. That kind of thing is going to look right at home on a dirty tank or terrain piece. You will have to be a little more direct in targeting your application if you want more of a wash/shade than a filter effect though, since water is thicker than mineral spirits and doesn't wick the same way. Instead of flooding the whole surface and letting the wicking effect draw it into the right spots apply the oil paint directly to the area of darkest shading and feather it outward.

And yeah, it's probably a little lower in quality than standard oil paints because of the soap they add to make it thin with water. But it's definitely a useful substitute if you can't (or don't want to) use conventional oils because of the chemical issues.

THE PLANET BROKE BEFORE THE GUARD! 
   
 
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