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I’m only aware of 1 special character per chapter crossing the rubicon, Lazarus for DA (although he was new), Blackmane for SW and Mephiston for BA, for example.

Which means that most of the characters that have been around for ages are still old marines, like Azreal.

Why is this? You’d have thought they’d all want the upgrade

It's highly dangerous. It's not like any known character will actually die from it but we are made to believe it's too dangerous so they only cross the Rubicon when there's no other option.

The real reason though is that GW just didn't have the time to Upgrade all Failcast to plastic yet (which, btw. is a much larger improvement than moving from Firstborn to Primaris ).

Because the other characters haven't had new models yet.

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
It's highly dangerous.

Do we know of literally any firstborn who has failed to cross the Rubicon?
Even being mortally wounded prior to the process doesn't seem to result in any failure rate.

It's a staggering example of GW's shoddy 'tell don't show' writing style.

Everyone who died was a nameless mook we've never met.

But yeah, behind the lore curtain it's 100% just because they haven't gotten around to making models yet. When they relaunched the Black Templars both Helbrecht and Grimaldus crossed the Rubricon and they released a Primaris Emperor's Champion (and removed Firstborn Emperor's Champions, I guess only Primaris Marines can have visions of the Emperor now).

I suspected it might be cos they haven’t got round to making new models but you would have thought that they had enough time with a big planned release like primaris.

I remember reading that it is very dangerous but I also thought I read that most old marines had opted for the transformation. If true it makes their leaders look cowardly doesn’t it? Marines don’t fear death.

Also does this mean that we will go through a period of all the main characters being upgraded to primaris? They can’t stay old marine forever? Will we see some fail to make the transformation? If not it will seem very much like a Sunday morning cartoon.

mrFickle wrote:
If not it will seem very much like a Sunday morning cartoon.

These days, even decapitation makes you stronger...

Didn't Dante have a "good" reason for not undergoing it? Besides being the oldest living non-dreadnaught SM in existence? At over 1500, he could really use a refit. But I thought he gave some reason in one of the books, was it "darkness in the blood"?

If it was age, I think he's the poster child for when is too old to cross the Rubicon. You have to be this young to go on the big boy ride!

mrFickle wrote:
I suspected it might be cos they haven’t got round to making new models but you would have thought that they had enough time with a big planned release like primaris.

Marines have loads of characters though, it's a lot to get through.

I remember reading that it is very dangerous but I also thought I read that most old marines had opted for the transformation. If true it makes their leaders look cowardly doesn’t it? Marines don’t fear death.

That's not a thing. Some officers went through the process to show there was nothing to fear or out of necessity but there are still many Firstborn who outright don't trust the Primaris. Being forced to accept your replacement at the end of a very angry gold-plated gun isn't going to bring happy times and good vibes. Some Chapters needed the Primaris to save themselves, others took them because they saw the potential and others were threatened by the Custodes. We have one canon instance of a Black Templars Crusade just flat out killing the Custodes and Primaris sent to reinforce them because they viewed it as heresy.

Also does this mean that we will go through a period of all the main characters being upgraded to primaris? They can’t stay old marine forever? Will we see some fail to make the transformation? If not it will seem very much like a Sunday morning cartoon.

Doubtful, there are so many characters that eventually they'll get dropped.

Is it worth risking centuries of experience to be a little stronger/tougher/bigger? Marine officers and specialists are force multipliers due to their skills, not just a guy swinging a sword or shooting a gun. Risking that to make them a little better in a fight is not necessarily a good idea.

Now it can be. Having some old officers cross over helps integrate the new and the old. If they are mortally wounded, why not? And probably a bunch of other things.

Last I checked there is 0 reason besides tradition (which isn’t nothing) against just making every new marine a primaris. It’s not like it’s a higher rejection rate, or they have a timer on them or anything. So in universe eventually they will be everyone once the firstborn cycle out. But as GW still has the clock glued one minute to midnight (despite moving it forward) I don’t see us moving the storyline that far forward in my lifetime.

 Gert wrote:
We have one canon instance of a Black Templars Crusade just flat out killing the Custodes and Primaris sent to reinforce them because they viewed it as heresy.

[

Curious. Where is this referenced?

The latest Dawn of Fire novel, Throne of Light.

 Nevelon wrote:
Is it worth risking centuries of experience to be a little stronger/tougher/bigger? Marine officers and specialists are force multipliers due to their skills, not just a guy swinging a sword or shooting a gun. Risking that to make them a little better in a fight is not necessarily a good idea.

Now it can be. Having some old officers cross over helps integrate the new and the old. If they are mortally wounded, why not? And probably a bunch of other things.

Last I checked there is 0 reason besides tradition (which isn’t nothing) against just making every new marine a primaris. It’s not like it’s a higher rejection rate, or they have a timer on them or anything. So in universe eventually they will be everyone once the firstborn cycle out. But as GW still has the clock glued one minute to midnight (despite moving it forward) I don’t see us moving the storyline that far forward in my lifetime.

Subjective. Mephiston was statistically turned into a Custodian Captain post cross over, which I believe was 8th? He's always been 5/5, but now he's 6W and 5A.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Subjective. Mephiston was statistically turned into a Custodian Captain post cross over, which I believe was 8th? He's always been 5/5, but now he's 6W and 5A.

Game stats don't matter this is a background discussion.

"Tradition is nothing" dosent sound as the motto of the IOM.

I personally enjoy old marines. I am to invested in them in the fluff. And for Space Wolves in particular I actually have good use of their non primaris units.

That beeing said if all characters where to become marines only the redemptor Bjørn would be quite potent

Back ground is that crossing over the Rubicon Primaris makes a baseline Astartes Tougher, faster, stronger, and able to use far better equipment than what is currently being used. Beyond the theological, what arguements are there that conversion wouldn't be an aid in the stated purpose of a Space Marine? Which is to serve the Emperor of Mankind?

Has there been any lore that indicates the Primaris flaws are magnified?

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Back ground is that crossing over the Rubicon Primaris makes a baseline Astartes Tougher, faster, stronger, and able to use far better equipment than what is currently being used. Beyond the theological, what arguements are there that conversion wouldn't be an aid in the stated purpose of a Space Marine? Which is to serve the Emperor of Mankind?

Has there been any lore that indicates the Primaris flaws are magnified?

I think if anything the flaws are downsized. But the lore I think is not stable on that, and might have changed. I think it started as “all fixed” and ended up with “still an issue”

I don’t know if we have any hard numbers on the survival rate of the process. That’s a huge deal for if it’s worth converting experienced marines.

You could have a marine with 200 years of experience under his belt attempt it. If he survives, he’s a bit better in a fight. If he dies, the IoM just lost a valuable asset, who may have been able to keep fighting in the Emperor’s name for another couple centuries. And it’s not like firstborn are slackers on the battlefield.

What chance of death is too much to make the gamble?

Also, better equipment is very subjective from an in-universe POV. Chapter relics with storied history might not fit. Although evidence shows they can be modified and reforged in some cases.

 Nevelon wrote:
Is it worth risking centuries of experience to be a little stronger/tougher/bigger? Marine officers and specialists are force multipliers due to their skills, not just a guy swinging a sword or shooting a gun. Risking that to make them a little better in a fight is not necessarily a good idea.

Not to mention replacing their equipment and training to new operational doctrines. Replacing equipment, doctrine and tactics that are millenia old and which are literally regarded as holy.

We know for a fact that the longer a BA marine lives, the closer they get to succumbing to the black rage. That is established in Dante, and the Devestation of Baal. Given the fact that the Primaris Marines given over to the chapter at the end of that series are roughly the same age as their surviving neophytes, it essentially resets the clock on that flaw.

I assume it works the same with the Space Wolves becoming Wulfen. There are no other time based flaws that I can think of, and I don't think the Salamanders even have a "flaw", but I'm not exceptionally versed in their lore.

Point being, in a lot of ways, a Primaris Marine can give a chapter a second chance at conquering their flaw, ala the Flesh Tearers. Or the other Chapters that were reduced to single digits.

Sort of. The flaws of the Blood Angels and Wolves might be lessened but when they do succumb it goes nuclear due to certain implants like the Furnace.

So Isn't that what the "I forget the BA name" chapter is for? The one almost entirely comprised of people who's gone full into the Black Rage/Red Thirst? I want to say Knights of Blood or Flesh Tearers, but even they don't 100% make themselve go Black Rage. They use it on Devestation of Baal, maybe it wasn't a whole Chapter but a unit of brothers? Each chapter seems to have one, under the control of a Chaplain?

Forget it. Point being, isn't that why chaplains exist? To calm the flaws via command presence/hynoinduced genetic responsiveness to command?

All bar one of the Blood Angels successors maintains a Death Company where those who fall to the Black Rage are assigned to die in suicide runs. If they survive they are often given the Emperor's Peace afterwords.
The Chaplains assigned to the Death Company act as shepherd's to the flock and only fight alongside them to prevent accidental friendly fire.
Chaplains in general exist to maintain the spiritual purity of the Chapter. It's the Chaplains who root out Heresy or are sought out by Astartes in crisis. Often the prayers or oaths recited by the Chaplains can be used to calm the nerves of the brothers about them, giving them clarity in battle. Other times they are used to goad their fellows on to righteous slaughter of the foe.

Right, but in DoB, I believe Astorath leads the DC "recruits" in a vigil, by chanting a creed, the book talks about how he's using deep rooted hypno-therapy. And they instantly become docile and allow themselves to be armed and armored. Is this something they alone possess? Or can anyone say the words and an Astartes suddently becomes docile?

Forgive me for getting off point.

The Reason Dante doesn't is because he views himself as too important to lose to a death by attempting the pass over. He's the only one in history that the Sanguinor has spoken to, and he's regularly visited by it in several books. He also feels he's destined (Not sure of the exact wording here) or he has prophetic dreams of saving the Emperor/Imperium. He doesn't know who the golden figure is in his dreams, but he thinks it might be him, and he doesn't want to risk that. Also he's the only leader capable of leading the entire Chapter and sub Chapters of the Blood Angles lineage. Even Mephiston wouldn't take his place. The other Chapter Masters would revolt. He's the lynchpin holding the entire Nihilus Sector together, and he can't risk that for an upgrade right now.

I thought that the primaris used to reinforce the chapters during the indomitus crusade were made using an unknown gene seed, or at least they didn’t make a bunch of them with blood angles gene seed to give to the blood angles, for example. So no reason they would encounter the black rage

mrFickle wrote:
I thought that the primaris used to reinforce the chapters during the indomitus crusade were made using an unknown gene seed, or at least they didn’t make a bunch of them with blood angles gene seed to give to the blood angles, for example. So no reason they would encounter the black rage

No, they were made with enhanced gene-seed of the known lineages. Approximately 1/9th of the initial Primaris Cawl made were Sanguinius' lineage.

mrFickle wrote:
I thought that the primaris used to reinforce the chapters during the indomitus crusade were made using an unknown gene seed, or at least they didn’t make a bunch of them with blood angles gene seed to give to the blood angles, for example. So no reason they would encounter the black rage

No. Guilliman explicitly commanded Cawl to only use the geneseed of those Primarchs who stayed loyal during the Heresy, something Cawl said was a mistake as the Astartes themselves weren't flawed, just the Primarchs (which BTW leaves it open to interpretation as to whether Cawl actually obeyed Guilliman in this regard).
The official line is that all of the Primaris are made using their Primarchs geneseed, so any Primaris of the lineage of the 9th Legion would all suffer the Black Rage and the Red Thirst, just as any of the 6th Legion would suffer the Curse of the Wulfen.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Right, but in DoB, I believe Astorath leads the DC "recruits" in a vigil, by chanting a creed, the book talks about how he's using deep rooted hypno-therapy. And they instantly become docile and allow themselves to be armed and armored. Is this something they alone possess? Or can anyone say the words and an Astartes suddently becomes docile?

It can be sure but it's just classic indoctrination. Lots of people feel calm when they say prayers because it's a source of focus or it helps them forget their current pain, sadness, or difficulties.

8th edition was hinting that first-borns were basically things of the past. Basically all dying off due to attrition or crossed the Rubicon.

Jarms48 wrote:
8th edition was hinting that first-borns were basically things of the past. Basically all dying off due to attrition or crossed the Rubicon.

And if this were true we would have armies of primaries led by a small cadre of firstborn, I think this was what made me start the thread int he first place.

I think the transition or introduction of primaries int he fluff has been flakey. Have any primaries shown up in the legion of the damned?

The Legion of the Damned haven't been mentioned since the start of 8th.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Right, but in DoB, I believe Astorath leads the DC "recruits" in a vigil, by chanting a creed, the book talks about how he's using deep rooted hypno-therapy. And they instantly become docile and allow themselves to be armed and armored. Is this something they alone possess? Or can anyone say the words and an Astartes suddently becomes docile?

That's been in the lore since 2nd edition. It's the Moripatris and is specifcally used to calm Death Company before battle but it's more like a deeply ingrained ritualistic meditation. It's not like a simple on-off switch and the hypno-indoctrination of a Marine doesn't seem to allow for complete control over them. You can calm them enough to get them suited up, but that's about it. I suspect the symbolism of the Chaplains and presence of your fellow battle brothers probably ha a lot to do with it as well.