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Do Combi-Bolters with a secondary weapon count as regular Bolters in all cases - for example, can you add a chain bayonet and can they be given Shrapnel Bolter rounds by Iron Warriors?

The Tactical Squad listing says that the Sergeant 'exchanges' his Bolter for a Combi-Bolter, so this would imply that you cant add a chain bayonet (which are available to any 'model with a Bolter') or give the Shrapnel rounds, but this seems counter-intuitive, especially for Shrapnel rounds.

Thanks.

My interpretation is that they're not bolters. There's no where that explicitly says they are.

Also under the 1st Legions Stormwing rule it does mention bolters, bollt pistols and combi-bolters as distinct things.
So no, i's say combi-bolter are not bolters.

They are separate weapons.

Then I am confused.... Because the implication there is that combi-bolters can't use Iron Warriors Shrapnel rounds, and since both the Terminator Praetor and Centurion (both armour types) come with combi-bolters, they cant take this ammo. I dont have the rules in front of my now, but I suspect that the Artificer Armoured versions also come with combi-bolters.... which would mean that no HQ Character can take Shrapnel bolter rounds...... That can't be right, can it?

Iron Warriors IC can swap their Bolt Pistols and Bolters for Shrapnel variants for free. You cannot swap Combi-Bolters at all which means no Shrapnel weapons for Terminator armoured models.

 Gert wrote:
Iron Warriors IC can swap their Bolt Pistols and Bolters for Shrapnel variants for free. You cannot swap Combi-Bolters at all which means no Shrapnel weapons for Terminator armoured models.

Many thanks. HH2 had brought me back to 40K and its all changed a bit!

Along this same line of questioning, can you upgrade a weapon that is listed as twin-linked to a twin-linked version of the shrapnel?

Example:
Spartan has a hull mounted twin-linked heavy bolter.
Can this be upgraded?

They are not, combi bolters are specifically another waepon, this is confirmed because some legions get their speical weapon in the form of a combi bolter while others dont.

That said i think its dumb and that if you have a special bolter weapon combi bolters should also get it, but thats just me.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tittliewinks22 wrote:
Along this same line of questioning, can you upgrade a weapon that is listed as twin-linked to a twin-linked version of the shrapnel?

Example:
Spartan has a hull mounted twin-linked heavy bolter.
Can this be upgraded?

Thats gonna be a question for an FAQ that is sorely needed already. Because TS suffer the same problem. They list the Asphyx bolt canon under their asphyx weapons, but dont list it as a weapon that can replace anything.

Thats because the asphyx cannon is unique to the osyron dreadnaught

Bobug wrote:
Thats because the asphyx cannon is unique to the osyron dreadnaught

no its not, its only on their atonima. However they have units like the osiron that have unique weapons only they can access like the force blade but its only listed on the osirons sheet itself.

So listing the asphyx bolt canon under their asphyx bolters would imply you can upgrade regular heavy bolters

Hope the FAQ adds a list of all bolters that can have bayonett. Think its oversight if the legion specific bolters cannot take them, but stalkers can take em on kraken bolters.

I don't think Twin-linked changes the weapon, it's more of an awkwardly placed rule.

I base that on there being no entries for most if any "Twin-linked [x]" weapons in the armoury section of the Liber Hereticus, so if this were not the case any vehicle with, say, a twin-linked heavy bolter would be impossible to run as we have no profile to reference anywhere that I can find.

 Rihgu wrote:
I don't think Twin-linked changes the weapon, it's more of an awkwardly placed rule.

I base that on there being no entries for most if any "Twin-linked [x]" weapons in the armoury section of the Liber Hereticus, so if this were not the case any vehicle with, say, a twin-linked heavy bolter would be impossible to run as we have no profile to reference anywhere that I can find.

Yes but the problem is we dont have rule on how to upgrade those. Because we dont know if RAI is that you can swap out say a legions speical heavy bolters for things that have twin linked heavy bolters. BUT the problem is, do you pay for 1? or 2 of them? If i have a twin linked heavy bolter do i just pay a 1 time cost of what ever it is to upgrade a heavy bolter? or do i pay for 2 because its models with 2 of them?

Now im leaning on the side that its not intended to be done taht way because you also have legions that specifically have special combi bolters while other legions dont but do have special bolters.

By the same metric we also do not have rules to upgrade say, a Hull (Front) Mounted Heavy Bolter.

I believe you would be able to upgrade a Hull (Front) Mounted Twin-linked Heavy Bolter to a Shrapnel Cannon (or whatever the Iron Warriors one is) and it would retain "Hull (Front) Mounted Twin-linked" and you'd only pay the listed cost for upgrading 1 heavy Bolter.

I also believe that upgrading a Banestrike Bolter does change it from being a bolter, so a SoH Veteran Squad with Banestrike bolters wouldn't be able to also take bayonets.

 Rihgu wrote:
By the same metric we also do not have rules to upgrade say, a Hull (Front) Mounted Heavy Bolter.

I believe you would be able to upgrade a Hull (Front) Mounted Twin-linked Heavy Bolter to a Shrapnel Cannon (or whatever the Iron Warriors one is) and it would retain "Hull (Front) Mounted Twin-linked" and you'd only pay the listed cost for upgrading 1 heavy Bolter.

I also believe that upgrading a Banestrike Bolter does change it from being a bolter, so a SoH Veteran Squad with Banestrike bolters wouldn't be able to also take bayonets.

I would say thats different because the hull mounting is just indicating where it is for a firing arc, Twin linked actually alters the weapon profile itself.

 Snrub wrote:
My interpretation is that they're not bolters. There's no where that explicitly says they are.

Also under the 1st Legions Stormwing rule it does mention bolters, bollt pistols and combi-bolters as distinct things.
So no, i's say combi-bolter are not bolters.

On page 130 of either Leiber book, it states "All weapons listed here are counted as "Bolt" weapons for those rules that affect such weapons. Combi-Bolters are listed in that list, ergo they are "Bolters, or Bolt Weapons"

Guys, you've got to read this more closely!

 Togusa wrote:

 Snrub wrote:
My interpretation is that they're not bolters. There's no where that explicitly says they are.

Also under the 1st Legions Stormwing rule it does mention bolters, bollt pistols and combi-bolters as distinct things.
So no, i's say combi-bolter are not bolters.

On page 130 of either Leiber book, it states "All weapons listed here are counted as "Bolt" weapons for those rules that affect such weapons. Combi-Bolters are listed in that list, ergo they are "Bolters, or Bolt Weapons"

Guys, you've got to read this more closely!

So that was my take on it as well, BUT we see that other legions very specifically grant combi bolters of their special bolters for example. SoH get a banestrike combi bolter, but Tsons only get a an asphyx bolter. Does that mean they can swap out their combi bolter for a combi aspyx bolter? Why does it not call out that specifically while other legions do?

 Backspacehacker wrote:

 Togusa wrote:

 Snrub wrote:
My interpretation is that they're not bolters. There's no where that explicitly says they are.

Also under the 1st Legions Stormwing rule it does mention bolters, bollt pistols and combi-bolters as distinct things.
So no, i's say combi-bolter are not bolters.

On page 130 of either Leiber book, it states "All weapons listed here are counted as "Bolt" weapons for those rules that affect such weapons. Combi-Bolters are listed in that list, ergo they are "Bolters, or Bolt Weapons"

Guys, you've got to read this more closely!

So that was my take on it as well, BUT we see that other legions very specifically grant combi bolters of their special bolters for example. SoH get a banestrike combi bolter, but Tsons only get a an asphyx bolter. Does that mean they can swap out their combi bolter for a combi aspyx bolter? Why does it not call out that specifically while other legions do?

My reading is yes because we have the cavate from the Bolt weapon entry that says everything in this list counts as a bolt weapon. It seems to me that a FAQ clarification would be well advised, but I'd have no problem if someone wanted Banestrike combis or any of the other specials. Seems like it'd be worth shooting an email over to them.

 Backspacehacker wrote:

 Togusa wrote:

 Snrub wrote:
My interpretation is that they're not bolters. There's no where that explicitly says they are.

Also under the 1st Legions Stormwing rule it does mention bolters, bollt pistols and combi-bolters as distinct things.
So no, i's say combi-bolter are not bolters.

On page 130 of either Leiber book, it states "All weapons listed here are counted as "Bolt" weapons for those rules that affect such weapons. Combi-Bolters are listed in that list, ergo they are "Bolters, or Bolt Weapons"

Guys, you've got to read this more closely!

So that was my take on it as well, BUT we see that other legions very specifically grant combi bolters of their special bolters for example. SoH get a banestrike combi bolter, but Tsons only get a an asphyx bolter. Does that mean they can swap out their combi bolter for a combi aspyx bolter? Why does it not call out that specifically while other legions do?

Depends upon the legion, seemingly, AL can grant both combis and normal versions of theirs. Basically if it is available.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:

 Togusa wrote:

 Snrub wrote:
My interpretation is that they're not bolters. There's no where that explicitly says they are.

Also under the 1st Legions Stormwing rule it does mention bolters, bollt pistols and combi-bolters as distinct things.
So no, i's say combi-bolter are not bolters.

On page 130 of either Leiber book, it states "All weapons listed here are counted as "Bolt" weapons for those rules that affect such weapons. Combi-Bolters are listed in that list, ergo they are "Bolters, or Bolt Weapons"

Guys, you've got to read this more closely!

So that was my take on it as well, BUT we see that other legions very specifically grant combi bolters of their special bolters for example. SoH get a banestrike combi bolter, but Tsons only get a an asphyx bolter. Does that mean they can swap out their combi bolter for a combi aspyx bolter? Why does it not call out that specifically while other legions do?

Depends upon the legion, seemingly, AL can grant both combis and normal versions of theirs. Basically if it is available.

See because you have legions that very specifcally call out both combi and regular bolters, that is more indicitive of NOT being able to take special combie bolters if you legion does not specifically call it out.

Because if you assume you can take bolters as combi bolters for the sake of special issue ammo. Whats stopping me from say, taking a combi plasma, and swaping out the plasma gun for my special version of plasma as tsons? It would be the same case.

 Backspacehacker wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:

 Togusa wrote:

 Snrub wrote:
My interpretation is that they're not bolters. There's no where that explicitly says they are.

Also under the 1st Legions Stormwing rule it does mention bolters, bollt pistols and combi-bolters as distinct things.
So no, i's say combi-bolter are not bolters.

On page 130 of either Leiber book, it states "All weapons listed here are counted as "Bolt" weapons for those rules that affect such weapons. Combi-Bolters are listed in that list, ergo they are "Bolters, or Bolt Weapons"

Guys, you've got to read this more closely!

So that was my take on it as well, BUT we see that other legions very specifically grant combi bolters of their special bolters for example. SoH get a banestrike combi bolter, but Tsons only get a an asphyx bolter. Does that mean they can swap out their combi bolter for a combi aspyx bolter? Why does it not call out that specifically while other legions do?

Depends upon the legion, seemingly, AL can grant both combis and normal versions of theirs. Basically if it is available.

See because you have legions that very specifcally call out both combi and regular bolters, that is more indicitive of NOT being able to take special combie bolters if you legion does not specifically call it out.

Because if you assume you can take bolters as combi bolters for the sake of special issue ammo. Whats stopping me from say, taking a combi plasma, and swaping out the plasma gun for my special version of plasma as tsons? It would be the same case.

This is why I'd suggest shooting off an email to the rules team for clarification.

I might have to but i got no idea if they will ever even get back to me, because man i got a good list of questions.
The one that is really bugging me is the aspyx bolt canon, does that replace a heavy bolter for tsons? because it does not mention it at all.

 Backspacehacker wrote:
I might have to but i got no idea if they will ever even get back to me, because man i got a good list of questions.
The one that is really bugging me is the aspyx bolt canon, does that replace a heavy bolter for tsons? because it does not mention it at all.

Now that I look at all of this again, I'm not sure. I think that if you think of the special weapons as add-ons for "Bolt" weapons, then it would be fine. But that doesn't appear to be how they are set up. I'm beginning to think that I am wrong and that only very specific things have these rules inbuilt.

 Togusa wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:
I might have to but i got no idea if they will ever even get back to me, because man i got a good list of questions.
The one that is really bugging me is the aspyx bolt canon, does that replace a heavy bolter for tsons? because it does not mention it at all.

Now that I look at all of this again, I'm not sure. I think that if you think of the special weapons as add-ons for "Bolt" weapons, then it would be fine. But that doesn't appear to be how they are set up. I'm beginning to think that I am wrong and that only very specific things have these rules inbuilt.

Right? and thats how im interpreting it as well.
Like if it was phrased as special issue ammo, i could see it being the way you were interpruting it, but it very much calls out specific weapons and distiguishes between bolt pistols, bolters, Heavy bolters, and even combi bolters.

This also leads me to belive a lot of the rules were siloed for various legions because a lot of them are not made equal at all. For example tsons only get Asphyx on bolters and bolt pistols despite thier Sehkmet in 1.0 coming stock with them.
And the Asphyx bolt canon is never mentioned as being able to replace a HB, and the only thing that can take it or has it listed are the tsons atonima.

TBH i personally think the Tsons rules are very sloppy right now.

 Backspacehacker wrote:

See because you have legions that very specifcally call out both combi and regular bolters, that is more indicitive of NOT being able to take special combie bolters if you legion does not specifically call it out.

Because if you assume you can take bolters as combi bolters for the sake of special issue ammo. Whats stopping me from say, taking a combi plasma, and swaping out the plasma gun for my special version of plasma as tsons? It would be the same case.

The way it IS formulated is that a Combi-Bolter can be replaced by a Combi-bolter special variant if available and a normal bolter by the normal bolter variant.
Further it is in regards to TS pointed out preciscly which weapons you are allowed to switch out.

Combi-weapons (combi-meltas etc. ) are however their own unmodifyable weapon class seemingly.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:

See because you have legions that very specifcally call out both combi and regular bolters, that is more indicitive of NOT being able to take special combie bolters if you legion does not specifically call it out.

Because if you assume you can take bolters as combi bolters for the sake of special issue ammo. Whats stopping me from say, taking a combi plasma, and swaping out the plasma gun for my special version of plasma as tsons? It would be the same case.

The way it IS formulated is that a Combi-Bolter can be replaced by a Combi-bolter special variant if available and a normal bolter by the normal bolter variant.
Further it is in regards to TS pointed out preciscly which weapons you are allowed to switch out.

Combi-weapons (combi-meltas etc. ) are however their own unmodifyable weapon class seemingly.

Oh i agree with you on all of that.

 Togusa wrote:
On page 130 of either Leiber book, it states "All weapons listed here are counted as "Bolt" weapons for those rules that affect such weapons. Combi-Bolters are listed in that list, ergo they are "Bolters, or Bolt Weapons"

Guys, you've got to read this more closely!

I have been thinking about this a lot more - mostly because I cant continue assembling my Tactical Squad until I know if I need to drop a 5 point piece of wargear for the sergeant just because an entire squad has to upgrade to shrapnel bolters if he can take them.....

Anyway, the list does state that all bolters and combi-bolters are 'bolt' weapons, but that doesn't mean that bolters and combi-bolters are equivalent. I also feel that any kind of bayonets on a combi-bolter is not a thing. Its not listed as an option for Terminators at all (although they usually get a close combat weapon anyway so wouldn't need it) and I don't think that there is any place where the book explicitly states that a combi-bolter can take a bayonet at all.

I also feel that combi-bolters are not intended to take shrapnel rounds. The shrapnel round is clearly based on a standard bolter profile, losing the range and AP but gaining pinning, but there is no note at all about the twin-linked rule. I feel that if the intention was to allow shrapnel rounds in a combi-bolter, it would require a specific extra entry in the shrapnel profile table which included the twin-linked ability. (The Gravis Shrapnel Cannon DOES include the twin-linked ability, for example.) Effectively, since the shrapnel profile doesnt include any regular shrapnel bolter with a twin-linked ability, they are not designed to replace any bolter that does have the twin-linked ability.

 Togusa wrote:
On page 130 of either Leiber book, it states "All weapons listed here are counted as "Bolt" weapons for those rules that affect such weapons. Combi-Bolters are listed in that list, ergo they are "Bolters, or Bolt Weapons"

Guys, you've got to read this more closely!

That's some backward logic. Bolt Weapons is a sub-category of weapon type just like Las Weapons or Plasma Weapons. A Bolter and Combi-Bolter are two distinct Bolt Weapons with different weapon profiles. You don't upgrade a Bolt Weapon, you specifically upgrade the profile.
The chain goes like this:
Bolt Weapon > Bolter > Upgrade for Bolter.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Backspacehacker wrote:
I might have to but i got no idea if they will ever even get back to me, because man i got a good list of questions.
The one that is really bugging me is the aspyx bolt canon, does that replace a heavy bolter for tsons? because it does not mention it at all.

It does not as there is no option for Heavy Bolters to be upgraded.

 Gert wrote:

 Togusa wrote:
On page 130 of either Leiber book, it states "All weapons listed here are counted as "Bolt" weapons for those rules that affect such weapons. Combi-Bolters are listed in that list, ergo they are "Bolters, or Bolt Weapons"

Guys, you've got to read this more closely!

That's some backward logic. Bolt Weapons is a sub-category of weapon type just like Las Weapons or Plasma Weapons. A Bolter and Combi-Bolter are two distinct Bolt Weapons with different weapon profiles. You don't upgrade a Bolt Weapon, you specifically upgrade the profile.
The chain goes like this:
Bolt Weapon > Bolter > Upgrade for Bolter.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Backspacehacker wrote:
I might have to but i got no idea if they will ever even get back to me, because man i got a good list of questions.
The one that is really bugging me is the aspyx bolt canon, does that replace a heavy bolter for tsons? because it does not mention it at all.

It does not as there is no option for Heavy Bolters to be upgraded.

I think it could be better worded.

Maybe calling your base weapon a bolter and every variant of it a XXX bolter was poor choice.