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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Anyone think GW will ever address the problems with the Bonebreaka and Gunwagon? For those who don't know, there are 3 common wagons made from the same kit, The battlewagon, the gunwagon and the Bonebreaka wagon.

The gist of it is that the battlewagon is the generic version while the bonebreaka and the gunwagon pay more points but get some additional rules, I'll break it down barney style for everyone.

So, naked the battlewagon is 105pts. It can take a "ard case" for 15pts, this gives it +1T (T7 to T8) but it loses Open topped rules (no more shooting out of it). Further, it can take a deff rolla for 15pts, this upgrades its CC attacks from WS5 (yep not kidding) to WS2 and it gives the attacks +1S -2AP and 2dmg. If you take those two upgrades you are now sitting at 135pts, not terrible for a T8 vehicle with 16wounds and a 3+ save, with no guns mind you. Now here is the kicker, what is the difference between this 135pt configuration and the CC variant known as the Bonebreaka which costs 160pts or 25pts more? Well for starters the stats are exactly the same, the CC weapon itself is still the exact same....in fact there are only 2 actual differences between the two, the Bonebreaka LOSES 8 Transport capacity but it gets a "Bonebreaka Ram". Want to know what that Ram does? If it charged that turn it gets D6 extra attacks....that is it. So the bonebreaka pays 25pts to lose 40% of its transport capacity but it gains a situational D6 attacks. Honestly how much do you think D6 attacks should be worth? In my opinion the Bonebreaka is sitting at around 25pts over priced. The fact is, losing that transport capacity is already a hefty price to pay just to get a situational D6 extra attacks.

Next we have the Gunwagon. Right off the bat, what are the differences between a Gunwagon and a regular battle wagon equipped with the same wargear? IE Kannon (5pts), Ard Case (15pts)....Well, the regular wagon is now a whopping 125pts while the Gunwagon is...150pts, so what does that 25pts extra get you? Again it loses 40% of its transport capacity but it gains.... +1 to hit with its Kannon. In fairness, you can equip it with a Kill kannon or a zzap gun, but the benefit remains the exact same as do the costs. So you are paying 25pts to lose transport capacity but you get to gain +1BS on your main gun.

And i'll throw an even bigger curveball at you as far as the Gunwagon, there is a FW variant of the battle wagon called the "Kannon Wagon" which when compared to the Killkannon Gunwagon, is 10pts cheaper, but it loses T8 and is instead T7 with no option to upgrade. But here is the big difference, The gunwagon's Kill kannon is ranged 24, D6 shots at S8 -2AP 2dmg. The Kannon wagon is 2D6 shots at S8 -2AP 3Dmg! But instead of 24' range its 60' range, and it also gets 3 big shootas for free (not worth much but still) Oh, silly me, i forgot to mention, the Kannon wagon is also +1 to hit on its main gun.



I get it, GW isn't great at writing internal balance, but we have had this codex out for almost a year now and they have had numerous chances to fix the issues on these wagons. Do you really think the Bonebreaka losing transport capacity but sometimes getting D6 extra attacks is worth 25pts, likewise is the gunwagon losing 40% transport capacity but gaining +1 to hit on its main gun really worth 25pts?

 Tomsug wrote:
Semper krumps under the radar

 
   
Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Cardiff

Points have just been updated, so if no change then there’s your answer.

 Stormonu wrote:
For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
 
   
Made in it
Waaagh! Ork Warboss




Italy

I simply think they should have never been three units in the first place, but a single datasheet: "Battlewagon". Just make +D6 attacks on the charge the standard ability for a deff rolla and double the shots of a standard kill kannon (how that thing is not Heavy 2D6 S10 AP-3 D3 is still beyond me), If GW thinks those weapons are bland outside the tank version that "buffs" them.

Having "specialist" tanks with really minor and insignificant upgrades is useless.

 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka




NE Ohio, USA

I guess as far as the gun carrying versions go?
1)
I think the question shouldn't be is it worth losing transport capacity. It should be: is that bs4 worth the 25pts?
As most Ork players generally complain about their poor shooting....
2)
The advantage of having several different very similar units is that - if you're so inclined - you can make an Orky tank Co.
Is that something worth doing? Probably not for you competitive/tourney types. But you are not the only people playing this game. Somewhere out there, someone more like me than you, IS running an ork tank Co in their casual matched games on Sat afternoons. Not because it's their path to ultimate victory & tourney dominance, but simply because they CAN.
Just because you won't touch such an option with a 10' pole, that doesn't mean that the option should disappear for the rest of us.
Wich is what would happen under the Ro3 if you got your wish of consolidation.
   
Made in it
Waaagh! Ork Warboss




Italy

For the vast majority having 3 battlewagons' variants, 4 including the FW one, (or 4 planes, 5 buggies or multiple warbosses/psykers/big meks, etc...) is just unnecessary bloat. A bloat that actually contributes to make all the variants weaker than they should be.

And for those like ccs Open play exists and bypassing Ro3 shouldn't be an issue anyway.

 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut






Maybe if units were better balanced to start with, the Rule of Three bandaid wouldn't be necessary...
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




I'm fine with 3 standard options existing, I'm fine with a FW super kannon variant existing, what i am not fine with is how useless 2 of those 4 are. A battlewagon itself is already struggling to be relevant, tack on a minor, and I really emphasize MINOR buff at the cost of 25pts AND reduced transport capacity and the option is basically DoA for anything except fluffy games.

A standard wagon with a Killkannon setup is 135pts, the 25pt upgrade to give the main gun BS4 is equivalent to almost 20% of the cost of the model.

The same is true for the bonebreaka variant. 25pts gets you on average 3.5 extra attacks when you charge. Not really worth it. If they wanted to make variants, give them advantages worth taking.

 Tomsug wrote:
Semper krumps under the radar

 
   
Made in ca
Gargantuan Gargant






SemperMortis wrote:
I'm fine with 3 standard options existing, I'm fine with a FW super kannon variant existing, what i am not fine with is how useless 2 of those 4 are. A battlewagon itself is already struggling to be relevant, tack on a minor, and I really emphasize MINOR buff at the cost of 25pts AND reduced transport capacity and the option is basically DoA for anything except fluffy games.

A standard wagon with a Killkannon setup is 135pts, the 25pt upgrade to give the main gun BS4 is equivalent to almost 20% of the cost of the model.

The same is true for the bonebreaka variant. 25pts gets you on average 3.5 extra attacks when you charge. Not really worth it. If they wanted to make variants, give them advantages worth taking.


I feel the same as Semper. I feel that since we don't have looted tanks as an option outside of Crusade or non-Matched play, that having multiple variants of the Battlewagon isn't a bad way of compensating if someone wants to make the Armoured Krumpany option for Orks. However, as he said, the main problem right now is that you would never take the Bonebreaka or Gunwagon ones as they are now, since they're basically just worse versions of the Battlewagon. It's only made worse from how the Kill Rig does either job's variant better by the time you equip them to be remotely useful.

Gunwagons should have BS4+ base, full stop, so that having other guns besides the main gun (it's called a GUNwagon, afterall) actually benefits from having a shooting focus. The periscope should just let them shoot twice with the main gun like it used to (so double shots for a kannon, killkannon, lobba or zzap gun). In the meantime, these weapons like I mentioned need to be upped in terms of actual utility. Killkannons should be close to what was mentioned above as a pseudo demolisher cannon weapon (S10 AP-3, D3, maybe D3+3 shots?), a Kannon should be Heavy 1 S9 AP:3 D:2D3 for the Solid Shell and 2D3 Blast S4 AP0 for the frag round, a Lobba should probably just be upgraded to the Heavy Lobba stats of the Kill Rig, and the Zzap Gun should auto-hit again.

Bonebreakas should just have a ram ability similar to buggies, except it is on a roll of a 2+ after a successful charge, it does 2D3 mortal wounds and on a 6, it does 3+D3 flat mortal wounds. Not sure if there should be any further buffs that aren't based on kustom jobs instead in terms of their CC profile for the deff rolla (maybe make the red rolla give a scarier deffrolla profile, like S+3, AP-3, D:3?) and change the grabbin klaw and wreckin ball to provide additional attacks with their profiles to make a bonebreaka actually have a ton of decent quality attacks beyond just using the deffrolla?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/07/02 19:05:26


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




And I will make a quick note, the regular Battlewagon is a hard sell in a list right now as it is, while the Kannonwagon is significantly better then the gunwagon and even it isn't what I would consider competitive.

I wouldn't mind making those upgrades worth it, or if that is a bridge too far, just reducing the price of the wagons down to where they should be would be fine as well. Ard case should be a 10pt upgrade at most, you are losing Open Topped to get +1 toughness. And the "Deff Rolla" should be a 10pt upgrade at most as well. And with those small points cuts the wagon is down to 95pts and there is more room north of it to give the bonebreaker/gunwagon a 35/25pts price cut putting them at 125pts each.

 Tomsug wrote:
Semper krumps under the radar

 
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






Well, at least the bonebreak gets a free red rolla and the free da boomer upgrade is better on a gunwagon that on a battlewagon now...

But no, they won't fix it. /thread


Automatically Appended Next Post:
ccs wrote:
I guess as far as the gun carrying versions go?
1)
I think the question shouldn't be is it worth losing transport capacity. It should be: is that bs4 worth the 25pts?
As most Ork players generally complain about their poor shooting....


+1 BS doesn't turn a battlewagon into a good shooting unit though. Even in crusade where I can run fully decked out gunwagons with da booma, lobba and four big shootas at no extra cost it struggle to shoot as well as a scrap jet that is just half its PL. And it doesn't compare at all to actual good units like the wazzbom and kill rig.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2022/07/03 14:06:56


7 Ork facts people always get wrong:
Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other.
A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot.
Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests.
Orks do not think that purple makes them harder to see. They do think that camouflage does however, without knowing why.
Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor.
Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers.
Orks do not have the power of believe. 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut






 Blackie wrote:
I simply think they should have never been three units in the first place, but a single datasheet: "Battlewagon". Just make +D6 attacks on the charge the standard ability for a deff rolla and double the shots of a standard kill kannon (how that thing is not Heavy 2D6 S10 AP-3 D3 is still beyond me), If GW thinks those weapons are bland outside the tank version that "buffs" them.

Having "specialist" tanks with really minor and insignificant upgrades is useless.

Yeah, it's just weird that they suddenly decided they should be three separate datasheets. It's not like Orks were short of HS options or anything.
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






Considering how 4 battlewagons was relatively normal in 4th-6th and 7th even tried to make you run five of them, I'm not too sad to at least have the option to run more than three of them.

7 Ork facts people always get wrong:
Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other.
A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot.
Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests.
Orks do not think that purple makes them harder to see. They do think that camouflage does however, without knowing why.
Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor.
Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers.
Orks do not have the power of believe. 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Jidmah wrote:
Considering how 4 battlewagons was relatively normal in 4th-6th and 7th even tried to make you run five of them, I'm not too sad to at least have the option to run more than three of them.


Absolutely agree, the old "Blitz Brigade" formation made a few people go purchase a decent amount of wagons.

I just really want the specialized variants to be worth taking.

 Tomsug wrote:
Semper krumps under the radar

 
   
Made in it
Waaagh! Ork Warboss




Italy

I have 4 wagons now, used to play 3-5 wagons during 5th and 7th but now I can't justify more than two. Maybe 3 if I also bring the kannonwagon, but I've done it just in a couple of games so far.

So instead of having 3 different profiles from the codex, with a decent one and two crap profiles, I'd rather lose the ability of fielding all my tanks if 1-3 wagons become really good, or at least just significantly better than the current battlewagon. And with FW there's always the option to add more wagons for those who want 4+ of them.

Seriously, the battlewagon should be close to the rigs in terms of native abilties/firepower, and a good start could be giving the bonebreaka and gunwagon bonuses to the regular wagon.

The alternative is to make wagons really cheap but it's something I loathe since the game is already massive in scale and it's gatekeeping for new players, who have to buy a 100$ model that only worths a little amount of points.

I'm thinking about a 140-150 points model with built in:

- T8, 5++ and damage reduction by 1 against everything
- 4 big shootas and one kannon or zzaap. Killkannon might replace the main gun for 15-20 points. Killkannon is 2D6 S10 AP-3 D3.
- +1 to hit if the model is stationary
- + D6 attacks on the charge if the model's equipped with a rolla

The kannonwagon would be cheaper, like 130-140 points since no melee abilities and less transport capacity. Main gun would be buffed though and all the defensive stats from the regular wagon would also be shared.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/07/05 07:27:19


 
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






 Blackie wrote:
I have 4 wagons now, used to play 3-5 wagons during 5th and 7th but now I can't justify more than two. Maybe 3 if I also bring the kannonwagon, but I've done it just in a couple of games so far.

So instead of having 3 different profiles from the codex, with a decent one and two crap profiles, I'd rather lose the ability of fielding all my tanks if 1-3 wagons become really good, or at least just significantly better than the current battlewagon. And with FW there's always the option to add more wagons for those who want 4+ of them.


No thank you, I rather play bad models than being forced to sell them.

FW also isn't a solution for anything. All of it is going to disappear over the next years. The supa kannon is the last survivor of a whole slew of gun options, it might not even make it to 10th.

Seriously, the battlewagon should be close to the rigs in terms of native abilties/firepower, and a good start could be giving the bonebreaka and gunwagon bonuses to the regular wagon.


The alternative is to make wagons really cheap but it's something I loathe since the game is already massive in scale and it's gatekeeping for new players, who have to buy a 100$ model that only worths a little amount of points.

Sadly, that wouldn't work. No mater how cheap you make it, it still doesn't shoot as well as a scrapjet - and you can't make it as cheap as a scrapjet for obvious reasons.

I'm thinking about a 140-150 points model with built in:

- T8, 5++ and damage reduction by 1 against everything
- 4 big shootas and one kannon or zzaap. Killkannon might replace the main gun for 15-20 points. Killkannon is 2D6 S10 AP-3 D3.
- +1 to hit if the model is stationary
- + D6 attacks on the charge if the model's equipped with a rolla

The kannonwagon would be cheaper, like 130-140 points since no melee abilities and less transport capacity. Main gun would be buffed though and all the defensive stats from the regular wagon would also be shared.


Kannon and zzap gun seriously need buffs, too. They should be on par with mek guns.
Some upgrade also need changes - grabbin' klaw and wreckin ball need to do more attacks and hit better.

In general I like your idea to have the three variants more specialized:
Battlewagon has 20 transport capacity, WS4+/BS5+ like buggies, always open topped
Gunwagon has whatever capacity (12, 6, does it matter?), WS4+/BS4+, periscope for main gun as you suggested, mandatory 'ard case
Bonebreaka has 12 transport capacity, WS3+/BS5+, mandatory 'ard case and deff rolla

Deff rolla no longer hits better, but does two hit rolls per attack
Wrekin' ball does 3 attacks
Grabbin Klaw does d3 attacks, PK profile, any hit prevents vehicles and monsters from falling back like it did in the past
Kannon does d6 shots/blast for shell and 3d6 shots for frag
Zap gun get the zagzap profile back - hit automatically, S9+ does 3 mortal wounds
Killkannon as you suggested, though S9 is probably more in line for a gun firing regular shells
Bring back grot riggers for 5+ FNP
Bring back reinforced ram for +1 to armor, mutually exclusive with deff rolla
Bring back stikkbomb flinga - there are bits for it in the kit, it should have the rules

7 Ork facts people always get wrong:
Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other.
A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot.
Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests.
Orks do not think that purple makes them harder to see. They do think that camouflage does however, without knowing why.
Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor.
Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers.
Orks do not have the power of believe. 
   
Made in it
Waaagh! Ork Warboss




Italy

 Jidmah wrote:


No thank you, I rather play bad models than being forced to sell them.


I don't think there would be any need of selling models. FW wagon could stay for years, we don't know when or even if GW is going to remove it. Then there's the loadout argument: unless your wagons are fully magnetized or are kitted in the exact same way having more models than the limit (which by the way it's only for matched and 2000 points, you can always play more outside those formats) shouldn't be an issue anyway. For example out of my 4 wagons only two have the rolla, and only one has a kill kannon. With one profile and Ro3 I might not be able to field all of them, assuming that the FW variant also disappears, but realistically I wouldn't want to field all of them anyway due to being assembled in a different way.

It's basically the same non issue most players owning flyers have: they're limited to 2 but, unless someone has 3 flyers of the same kind or 3+ fully magnetized models, a player can have up to 8 flyers, 2 of each kind, without being forced to sell anything.

I think that if the model's bad I wouldn't field it anyway or at best I'd just field 1 or 2, like I'm currently doing, so I might sell the shelved ones anyway. The bonebreaka and the gunwagon are so bad that they're basically a non existing option.

To keep multiple profiles the wagons need to be significantly specialized. A single buff to either melee or shooting is not enough to justify multiple variants. They'd need unique gear (or fixed loadout) and unique special abilities.

Like:

- BW: can only take a Ram, can only be equipped with big shootas, transport capacity of 20, 1st special ability to give a bonus to disembarking units, 2nd ability for extra speed like better advance.
- Gunwagon: can only take a Ram, reduced transport capacity, can take kannon/kill kannon/zzaap, 1st special ability is a +1 to hit bonus if the model's stationary, 2nd special ability might a +1 to wound or AP vs specific targets, like other tanks or to ignore negative modifiers.
- Bonebreaka: only wagon that can be equipped with Deff Rolla, can only be equipped with big shootas, reduced transport capacity, 1st special ability is +X attacks on the charge, 2nd special ability might be advance and charge, fall back and charge, being able to heroic intervene or always fight first.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/07/05 13:29:07


 
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






 Blackie wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:


No thank you, I rather play bad models than being forced to sell them.


I don't think there would be any need of selling models. FW wagon could stay for years, we don't know when or even if GW is going to remove it.

Remember the liftawagon? It was still on sale when 9th edition was released.
Sure, the kannon wagon could stay for years. It could also be gone by the end of next year.

Then there's the loadout argument: unless your wagons are fully magnetized or are kitted in the exact same way having more models than the limit (which by the way it's only for matched and 2000 points, you can always play more outside those formats) shouldn't be an issue anyway.

For example out of my 4 wagons only two have the rolla, and only one has a kill kannon. With one profile and Ro3 I might not be able to field all of them, assuming that the FW variant also disappears, but realistically I wouldn't want to field all of them anyway due to being assembled in a different way.

Who on earth would ruin one of the most well-designed and modular kits GW has ever done by glueing the options to it
You can literally switch between all options without needing a single magnet, as most of them are designed to snap in place. Even for more top-heavy options like the grabbin' klaw, three or four coins or a few pieces of sprue are sufficient to keep them balanced. This was common knowledge for as long as battlewagons remain in the competitive spotlight.
Literally the only thing you have to commit to is a turret gun - and if you played during 5th, you almost definitely didn't use the then absolutely terrible killkannon.
Luckily, I have two turrets fully magnetized as well as three spares (the turret sprue was available for 3€ back then), so I got three kannons, two zap guns and two fully magnetized turrets to go, because back then battlewagons were able to have two turrets.
I even got wreckin' balls and boarding planks for two of them.

You're also wrong for the model limit applying only in matched formats - it applies to literally all relevant ones except crusade, which limits them in different ways.


It's basically the same non issue most players owning flyers have: they're limited to 2 but, unless someone has 3 flyers of the same kind or 3+ fully magnetized models, a player can have up to 8 flyers, 2 of each kind, without being forced to sell anything.

Ironically, I also own three fully magnetized fliers. I still think the flyer change was good for the game, plus you can actually sell fully magnetized models at a good price.

You have definitely have weird ideas for what people do and what they don't do. If I go to a store here, literally every vehicle larger than a landspeeder has all its options magnetized. Some people even magnetize their terminators and havocs. GW's kits are too expensive to replace them every time they decide to randomly buff one of the options.
Not magnetizing your models is considered to be asking for your models to be invalidated. Everyone who experienced getting a new codex or edition once will not fall into that trap twice.

Just like you claimed that no one ever ran 9 voidweavers in a casual setting - yes, they did, people just snapped the extra gun on their fully magnetized starweavers and were ready to go.

I think that if the model's bad I wouldn't field it anyway or at best I'd just field 1 or 2, like I'm currently doing, so I might sell the shelved ones anyway. The bonebreaka and the gunwagon are so bad that they're basically a non existing option.

To keep multiple profiles the wagons need to be significantly specialized. A single buff to either melee or shooting is not enough to justify multiple variants. They'd need unique gear (or fixed loadout) and unique special abilities.

To not be shelved, they just need to not overcharge for trivial buffs. If bonebreakas and gunwagons were just 10 points over battlewagons they would totally be an option, especially with their kustom jobs now being free.

To be good, they need more and I agree with you, but the vanilla wagon isn't good either.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2022/07/05 15:21:52


7 Ork facts people always get wrong:
Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other.
A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot.
Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests.
Orks do not think that purple makes them harder to see. They do think that camouflage does however, without knowing why.
Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor.
Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers.
Orks do not have the power of believe. 
   
Made in ru
!!Goffik Rocker!!






There is no reason to run a gun wagon when there's a superior fw version avaliable. It's just bad rule writing as per usual.
   
Made in it
Waaagh! Ork Warboss




Italy

 koooaei wrote:
There is no reason to run a gun wagon when there's a superior fw version avaliable. It's just bad rule writing as per usual.


Yeah, I believe that unless GW goes really deep into differentiate the wagons' variants we'll always have one or two best versions that completely overshadow all the other variants. There are only two options: merge everything into a single datasheet in order to get at least one really good unit or keep them separate but with significant differences between each other.

Having 3+ samey units leads to the current state of the wagons, where people take 1 or 2 at most, 3 if they're totally crazy about the models, despite the option of bringing up to 12, counting the FW one.

 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Generally speaking, balance wise, Battlewagons are the most balanced they have ever been. In that they are all trash and are rarely taken

I just want the variants to all be at least different and somewhat competitive. Having a CC variant that is good does not necessarily mean we have to have a gunwagon variant suck.

 Tomsug wrote:
Semper krumps under the radar

 
   
Made in it
Waaagh! Ork Warboss




Italy

1-2 Battlewagons regularly show up. Kannonwagon was at least decent as long as Freebooterz were good. It's the bonebreaka and the gunwagon that are actually never taken, and were never taken in the entire edition.

My issue with BW variants is that basically only the basic one is decent, but not really good. So why not give it all the buffs that the CC and shooty ones have and remove those? I have the kill rig in mind; in terms of rules and quality the battlewagon should be there, as the non snagga variant of an ork land raider but a battlewagon currently is a super buffed rhino instead and I hate it.

I'd rather have one single good unit that I'd happily field 2-3 of them on regular basis than having multiple variants that allow me to field 9-12 but in practise I only field 1-2 of the most basic ones, and only because I really love the models.

 
   
 
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