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Made in au
Dakka Veteran




I wanted to verify my understanding around Abaddon and the warzone Nephilim requirement of having all selectable keywords the same.

As I understand it, if I take Abaddon as my Warlord, and I pay CP to unlock Warlord traits, those traits have the <Legion> selectable keyword. The CSM Warlord traits page indicates that the <Legion> keyword for those traits must match the models Legion, in the case of Abaddon that would be Black Legion.

With that requirement in mind for Warzone Nephilim, if you wanted to run Abaddon with a Legion other than Black Legion, that you can't give him any WL Traits, otherwise either the codex requirement or Nephilim requirement would be broken, and thus the list would be invalid?
   
Made in gb
Deadly Dire Avenger




I'm not sure how you're breaking any rules? You replace the <LEGION> in the WLTs with BLACK LEGION, but all that means is that they don't work on the rest of your army.

If Abaddon is in a SupCom, then that Detachment is a BLACK LEGION Legion Detachment, and your other Detachment would be a <LEGION> Legion Detachment.

Your main Detachment still gets your <LEGION> Trait, because AGENTS OF CHAOS models (which Abaddon is if he's your WARLORD) don't count. Abaddon does not get to use it (as per the Legions page in the Codex), because he is not from that Legion.

Edit: Also, I think what you might be getting mixed up is the actual selectable keyword <LEGION> which appears on a unit's datasheet, and the reference to that keyword elsewhere in the Codex. You're not selecting the keyword when you adjust a warlord trait; you're just updating the wording to match the keyword you selected on the model.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2022/07/04 14:47:34


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Made in au
Dakka Veteran




MadSpy wrote:
Edit: Also, I think what you might be getting mixed up is the actual selectable keyword <LEGION> which appears on a unit's datasheet, and the reference to that keyword elsewhere in the Codex. You're not selecting the keyword when you adjust a warlord trait; you're just updating the wording to match the keyword you selected on the model.
Yeah, I'm not talking about individual detachment requirements, just the Nephilim selectable keyword requirements.

Nephilim says that a selectable keyword is "that is Faction keywords presented in angular brackets that a player selects when they add those units to their army"

The <LEGION> in the warlord trait falls into this definition.

In additon, there's no requirement for the selectable keyword to be on the datasheet to count (the rule doesn't make mention of datasheets at all)
   
Made in us
Confessor Of Sins





Tacoma, WA, USA

The only time you get to select <Legion> is when you add a unit to your army and <Legion> is on the datasheet (see the rules for <Legion> in the codex). All other instances in the rules <Legion> is automatically substituted to whatever <Legion> was selected for unit in question.
   
Made in au
Dakka Veteran




Yes, when you add Abaddon, chose him as your walord, and give him a trait, you need to select a keyword for <LEGION> for his unit and then automatically substitute it wherever there is <LEGION> for that unit.

The warlord traits page adds additional requirements that you must meet for the keyword selection. This limits the valid choices.
   
Made in gb
Deadly Dire Avenger




Abaddon does not have <LEGION>. He has BLACK LEGION. You do not select a Legion for his unit, because there is no selection to be done. The fact that BLACK LEGION is an option which <LEGION> can be selected as does not make them the same thing.

Thus, the Nephilim restriction that says all models with a selectable keyword must have the same one does not apply to him. As long as all models with <LEGION> select the same keyword, you still meet that requirement.

The <LEGION> keyword in Warlord Traits, etc. is not "selected"; it is replaced with the name of the Legion from which the model is drawn. So for Abaddon, it is replaced with BLACK LEGION, for other models it is replaced with their selected <LEGION>.





This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/07/05 11:12:24


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Made in au
Dakka Veteran




MadSpy, to make sure I'm understanding you correctly, could your last paragraph be rephrased to: The selectable keyword <LEGION> in Abaddon's warlord trait is replaced with BLACK LEGION, but it doesn't count as it is not "selected".

Have I understood and rephrased that correctly? If so, are you asserting that <LEGION> in the warlord trait is not a selectable keyword?

If I have misunderstood, then please let me know.
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




It isn't selectable, as it is automatically updated based on the warlords legion. You don't get to decide it.
   
Made in gb
Deadly Dire Avenger




JakeSiren wrote:
MadSpy, to make sure I'm understanding you correctly, could your last paragraph be rephrased to: The selectable keyword <LEGION> in Abaddon's warlord trait is replaced with BLACK LEGION, but it doesn't count as it is not "selected".

Have I understood and rephrased that correctly? If so, are you asserting that <LEGION> in the warlord trait is not a selectable keyword?

If I have misunderstood, then please let me know.


Warlord Traits do not have a selectable keyword. They have a placeholder which happens to be represented in the same way as the selectable keyword. That placeholder is replaced with the Legion of your Warlord (whether that was selected or not).

As per the screenshot below, it does not say that you select the keyword for your WLT. It says that you replace the <LEGION> text in the WLT with your Warlord's Legion.

[Thumb - WLT.png]
WLT Rule

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2022/07/05 15:16:55


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Made in au
Dakka Veteran




nosferatu1001 wrote:
It isn't selectable, as it is automatically updated based on the warlords legion. You don't get to decide it.
In other words, you follow the instructions on how to select the keyword.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
MadSpy wrote:
Warlord Traits do not have a selectable keyword. They have a placeholder which happens to be represented in the same way as the selectable keyword. That placeholder is replaced with the Legion of your Warlord (whether that was selected or not).

As per the screenshot below, it does not say that you select the keyword for your WLT. It says that you replace the <LEGION> text in the WLT with your Warlord's Legion.

So the keyword is written exactly like a selectable keyword as defined by both Nehpilim and the core rules, but you have arbitrarily decided that it is a "placeholder which happens to be represented in the same way as the selectable keyword". Could you provide a rules quotation for that claim? It seems completely absurd to me.

The screen shot you provided provided very strong instructions on how to select the keyword.

*Edit*
I just wanted to explain my last comment more as I'm sure there will be objections to it. Think about what happens immediately after you select a keyword in general. You replace the content in <BRACKETS> with that word. The screenshot is shortcutting that process and telling you what to use for the selectable keyword.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/07/05 21:38:05


 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




How is "this is decided for you" not fundamentally different from "you picked this"". One is selectable, the other is selected.

I think this is another's where Jake sees an issue no one else does.
   
Made in au
Dakka Veteran




nosferatu1001 wrote:
I think this is another's where Jake sees an issue no one else does.
Thank you for demonstrating your dismissive attitued. It helps people know that you haven't come here for genuine conversation.
   
Made in de
Nihilistic Necron Lord






Germany

Selectable simply means you have a choice. In this case you dont have a choice what keyword to pick, the rule says you need to replace LEGION with BLACK LEGION.
   
Made in us
Confessor Of Sins





Tacoma, WA, USA

JakeSiren wrote:
Spoiler:
nosferatu1001 wrote:
It isn't selectable, as it is automatically updated based on the warlords legion. You don't get to decide it.
In other words, you follow the instructions on how to select the keyword.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
MadSpy wrote:
Warlord Traits do not have a selectable keyword. They have a placeholder which happens to be represented in the same way as the selectable keyword. That placeholder is replaced with the Legion of your Warlord (whether that was selected or not).

As per the screenshot below, it does not say that you select the keyword for your WLT. It says that you replace the <LEGION> text in the WLT with your Warlord's Legion.

So the keyword is written exactly like a selectable keyword as defined by both Nehpilim and the core rules, but you have arbitrarily decided that it is a "placeholder which happens to be represented in the same way as the selectable keyword". Could you provide a rules quotation for that claim? It seems completely absurd to me.

The screen shot you provided provided very strong instructions on how to select the keyword.

*Edit*
I just wanted to explain my last comment more as I'm sure there will be objections to it. Think about what happens immediately after you select a keyword in general. You replace the content in <BRACKETS> with that word. The screenshot is shortcutting that process and telling you what to use for the selectable keyword.
Not quite. <Legion> has two uses in the rules.

You select a keyword to replace <Legion> when you add a unit that has that keyword on their datasheet. You'll find rules for that in the Codex rules section for <Legion>.

Beyond that, all instances of <Legion> in the rules are a placeholder for the keyword that replaced <Legion> on the datasheet in question.

So when you have a Heretic Astartes unit with a selected <Legion>, all instances of <Legion> regarding that unit are replaced by the keyword you selected.

In the case of Abaddon, he has the legion keyword Black Legion, which means all instances of <Legion> regarding Abaddon are replaced with Black Legion.
   
Made in au
Dakka Veteran




I see what you are saying Alextroy, but I disagree about there being two classes of <KEYWORDS>

If you review the core rules, it talks about how <KEYWORDS> are selected for the unit, not the datasheet. Things like warlord traits, relics, and psychic powers belong to the unit, and as of such the respective <KEYWORDS> are replaced. The example in the battle primer actually covers this.
Battle Primer wrote:For example: Nick adds a Space Marine Librarian to his army.
This unit has the <Chapter> keyword on its datasheet, which Nick selects to be Ultramarines. If the Librarian attempts to manifest a psychic power that also uses the <Chapter> keyword, then when reading that rule, Nick would replace that keyword in every instance with Ultramarines.

*Edit*
I would also like to note, that in essence, the text on the warlord traits, powers, etc are all reminders to do what the core rules tell you to do. They also cover edge cases such as Abaddon who don't otherwise have selectable keywords and guide you to be in line with the designers intentions.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/07/06 07:34:14


 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




When it's literally only you not seeing this Jake, it's hard to know how to explain it more

Even there you have conflated selects and replaces as if they have the same contextual meaning. When casting the power the player does not select the keyword. The keyword is replaced for them

Same with the warlord trait. It isn't a choice (selection) but automatic.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Does any of that make it clearer?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/07/06 09:23:57


 
   
Made in au
Dakka Veteran




nosferatu1001 wrote:
When casting the power the player does not select the keyword. The keyword is replaced for them

Same with the warlord trait.
That is effectively what I said. You select the keyword for the unit. I have quoted myself below in case there is any confusion
JakeSiren wrote:
If you review the core rules, it talks about how <KEYWORDS> are selected for the unit, not the datasheet. Things like warlord traits, relics, and psychic powers belong to the unit, and as of such the respective <KEYWORDS> are replaced.

In regards to:
nosferatu1001 wrote:
It isn't a choice (selection) but automatic.
What detail are you trying to introduce here? You choose the <KEYWORD> for the unit and replace all instances of it for that unit (including in warlord traits, relices, psychic powers, etc). The example provided in the core rules demonstrates this principal.

<KEYWORDS> in non-datasheet abilities (warlord traits, psychic powers, etc) meet the Nephilim definition of selectable keywords - "keywords presented in angular brackets that a player selects when they add those units to their army".
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




I thought it was clear already, the other two times it was covered

You only select one keyword. All other keywords are replaced based off that selection. Secondary versus primary.
   
Made in au
Dakka Veteran




Nosferatu1001, it's not clear because it's not supported in the rules. Have a review of the Keywords section of the core rules. There is no concept of secondary vs primary when it comes to this.

You must decide what the <keywords> will be the moment a unit is added to your army.
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




I've reviewed them, and it's clear to me and everyone else so far. You don't get when you select vs someth8ng being replaced, and seem to think they're the same. They're not, and after explaining multiple times in different ways I think I'm done. You do you.
   
Made in au
Dakka Veteran




nosferatu1001 wrote:
I've reviewed them, and it's clear to me and everyone else so far. You don't get when you select vs someth8ng being replaced, and seem to think they're the same. They're not, and after explaining multiple times in different ways I think I'm done. You do you.
I had hoped you changed your mind and had come to discuss in good faith, but your latest response confirms what I had initially assessed. You are being dismissive and argumentive for the sake of it.

This is easily demonstrated. Out of hand you have said "You don't get when you select vs someth8ng being replaced, and seem to think they're the same. They're not" in response to
JakeSiren wrote:
You must decide what the <keywords> will be the moment a unit is added to your army.
Except what I wrote is a lightly reworded quote from the core rules.
Battle Primer wrote:Some datasheets have keywords that are presented in angular brackets, such as <Chapter>, <Legion> and <Mark of Chaos>. This is shorthand for keywords that you can select yourself (with certain restrictions, as described in the publication that contains that datasheet). You must decide what these keywords will be at the moment such a unit is added to your army (whether before the battle or during). If another rule uses keywords in angular brackets, then that keyword matches the keyword that you selected of the unit using that rule.

So yeah, I'm done with your bad faith arguments. Thanks for leaving the thread so the actual rules can be discussed in good faith.
   
Made in us
Confessor Of Sins





Tacoma, WA, USA

Battle Primer wrote:Some datasheets have keywords that are presented in angular brackets, such as <Chapter>, <Legion> and <Mark of Chaos>. This is shorthand for keywords that you can select yourself (with certain restrictions, as described in the publication that contains that datasheet). You must decide what these keywords will be at the moment such a unit is added to your army (whether before the battle or during). If another rule uses keywords in angular brackets, then that keyword matches the keyword that you selected of the unit using that rule.

This quote tells you everything you need to know. You select the <Legion> of your unit when you add it to your army. Once you have done, that all instances of <Legion> used in relation to that unit (such as from an ability on the datasheet, a Warlord Trait, or a Stratagem) match the keyword you selected.

In short, you only select once per unit. That selection carries over to other rules as they relate to that unit.
   
Made in au
Dakka Veteran




Exactly right, you chose <LEGION> for the unit, so <LEGION> on a datasheet is considered the same as <LEGION> in a Warlord trait, or <LEGION> in a psychic power, etc.

This means that, regardless of where <LEGION> appears for the unit, for Nephilim you need to make sure all <LEGION> in your army matchs.
   
Made in us
Confessor Of Sins





Tacoma, WA, USA

No. You only need <Legion> to match when you have the choice to pick <Legion>. You can pick <Legion> for your Daemon Prince. You can pick <Legion> for you Legionaries. You can't pick <Legion> for Abaddon because <Legion> doesn't appear in his Keyword list. You therefore can have Abaddon in an army of otherwise Alpha Legion units because the only <Legion> you selected was Alpha Legion.

In this case, Abaddon's warlord trait still works only on Black Legion units because that is his Legion and therefore is what <Legion> in the Warlord trait is replaced by.
   
Made in au
Dakka Veteran




 alextroy wrote:
You can't pick <Legion> for Abaddon because <Legion> doesn't appear in his Keyword list.
Why do you think that the <LEGION> keyword needs to appear in the keywords list to be able to select one?

The core rules talk about selecting the <KEYWORD> for the unit, not the <KEYWORD> for they Keyword list.

When you add Abaddon to your army with the Eternal Vendetta warlord trait, you need to select <LEGION> for the unit as Eternal Vendetta has the <LEGION> keyword. Your valid choices are limited to one option due to the books restrictions.
   
Made in us
Pious Palatine




JakeSiren wrote:
Yes, when you add Abaddon, chose him as your walord, and give him a trait, you need to select a keyword for <LEGION> for his unit and then automatically substitute it wherever there is <LEGION> for that unit.

The warlord traits page adds additional requirements that you must meet for the keyword selection. This limits the valid choices.


Can you not chime in if you don't actually know the rules?


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





You can't select Abbaddons keyword.

Also Abbaddon doesn't have selectable warlord traits or relics, so you wouldnt pay any CP for him in those regards.
   
Made in au
Dakka Veteran




Hi blaktoof,

The warlord trait Eternal Vendetta has the <LEGION> selectable keyword. We know it's a selectable keyword as it's a "keyword presented in angular brackets, such as <CHAPTER>, <LEGION> and <MARK OF CHAOS>" (ref: core rules, keywords)

When you add Abaddon to your army with the Eternal Vendetta warlord trait "you must decide what these keywords will be at the moment such a unit is added" (ref: core rules, keywords)

In Nephilim, the <LEGION> in Eternal Vendetta must match all of the other <LEGION> keywords in your army.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





In Nephilim it just asks that units selectable faction keywords match. Eternal vendetta isnt an unit with selectable faction keyword section on its datasheets.

Each datasheet has a section at the bottom that lists faction keywords and keywords, some of them are selectable.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/07/07 01:59:27


 
   
Made in au
Dakka Veteran




That's a fair point. I had assumed that <LEGION> was a faction selectable keyword (generally speaking), but it doesn't appear to be described as of such in the CSM book.

I accept your point about faction selectable keywords needing to be in the Faction section of the datasheet. And as of such the conclusion that
the selectable keyword in Eternal Vendetta has no impact on the Nephilim requirements.

Thank you to the people who engaged in genuine discussion.
   
 
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