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Made in hr
Been Around the Block




Ok, so I had a chance to look at the new CSM codex, and the only thing I can ask is WTF?

Everything seems supercharged, but I will give two most blatantly obvious things I saw:

1.) ALL the warlord traits have something additional, they are like one and a half warlord trait compared to other factions ( example, a warlord trait to give 5+ FNP AND ALSO that no wound rolls can be re-rolled against the warlord )

2.) Land raider is T9 and lascannons deal d6+2 dmg - for the same price as the loyalist one

So is this like a mercy-power-boost to CSM to make them feel happy after being neglected for a looooooooong time or what? Or a calculated plan just to boost CSM sales?

I dunno what it is, except extremely frustrating....

Thoughts?
   
Made in us
Storm Trooper with Maglight



Cadia

There is no standard for what a WLT can give you so I'm not sure what your point is there.

And yes, the land raider got buffed. It was a truly awful unit before the buff and it probably still sucks. I'm not sure why you think it's a bad thing that the land raider isn't stuck in the same "nobody will ever use this" trash pile as the loyalist one. Should units never get buffed unless every similar unit also gets buffed at the same time, even when it isn't that faction's turn for a codex update?

THE PLANET BROKE BEFORE THE GUARD! 
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

It's just a precursor to the new Marine Codex, which will be this +1.

Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
Made in us
Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer




The dark hollows of Kentucky

CSM Land Raiders are 265 PPM. Loyalist Scum Land Raiders are 245 PPM. So not "the same price".

Edit: And I don't see very much in this dumpster fire that will "make CSM players happy".

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/07/04 09:48:38


 
   
Made in nl
Regular Dakkanaut






It's not that strange for one book to get updated stats before the others books do. It's not like they get released at the same time. Then it would be weird. Of course, you could do even more with online rules changes, but plenty of people already are annoyed by all the changes that are being made. Especially because these changes aren't there just to correct clear mistakes, but also to completely change units.

   
Made in us
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare






Sing with me! : "There is a season, churn, churn, churn . . ."

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
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Made in de
Contagious Dreadnought of Nurgle





Hey, this is the first thread on dakka about the new CSM Codex that's not criticizing the unit options but instead the strength in the game. That's something new. As new as Land Raiders being strong units, which hasn't happened since... 3rd Edition? Or some Black Templars Crusader in between?
   
Made in hr
Been Around the Block




CadianSgtBob wrote:
There is no standard for what a WLT can give you so I'm not sure what your point is there.

And yes, the land raider got buffed. It was a truly awful unit before the buff and it probably still sucks. I'm not sure why you think it's a bad thing that the land raider isn't stuck in the same "nobody will ever use this" trash pile as the loyalist one. Should units never get buffed unless every similar unit also gets buffed at the same time, even when it isn't that faction's turn for a codex update?


My point here is, FIND me a warlord trait in a different codex that gives something beyond 5+ FNP, and as wound re-rolls are one of the strongest buffs to have in-game it would seem (to me, at least) that the CSM trait is leagues better than any other similar trait in ANY OTHER codex.

And yes, I like the LR buff, makes it kinda viable - but the loyalist one is still not viable. So, in the era of GW giving their customers updated sheet every single second, I wouldn't mind one more so that I could use them as well, instead of waiting for another 4 months before I am able to when the new balace dataslate drops that corrects that fact.

It is all rather simple, really.
   
Made in us
Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer




The dark hollows of Kentucky

ThulsaDoom wrote:
CadianSgtBob wrote:
There is no standard for what a WLT can give you so I'm not sure what your point is there.

And yes, the land raider got buffed. It was a truly awful unit before the buff and it probably still sucks. I'm not sure why you think it's a bad thing that the land raider isn't stuck in the same "nobody will ever use this" trash pile as the loyalist one. Should units never get buffed unless every similar unit also gets buffed at the same time, even when it isn't that faction's turn for a codex update?


My point here is, FIND me a warlord trait in a different codex that gives something beyond 5+ FNP, and as wound re-rolls are one of the strongest buffs to have in-game it would seem (to me, at least) that the CSM trait is leagues better than any other similar trait in ANY OTHER codex.

And yes, I like the LR buff, makes it kinda viable - but the loyalist one is still not viable. So, in the era of GW giving their customers updated sheet every single second, I wouldn't mind one more so that I could use them as well, instead of waiting for another 4 months before I am able to when the new balace dataslate drops that corrects that fact.

It is all rather simple, really.

You wait.......five years.
   
Made in us
The Marine Standing Behind Marneus Calgar





Upstate, New York

Do we think the WL traits were scaled on the idea that you only get one if you pay a CP? So they wanted to make them worth taking.

As much as I’d love to have my old LR at those stats, I hope we loyalists have to wait for it. Our spiky brother waited forever for their second wound, and if we got this FAQd out in a couple weeks, I’d worry that a large percentage of them would just die from strokes/heart problems.

I don’t know if LRs have ever actually been good. They are multi-role, so you never can use all the features you are paying for. They also skew hard into rock/paper/scissor game play. You paid a LOT for that armor that could just ignore so many guns, but some just didn’t care that you were AV14 all around. There were certainly times and places you could have fun with them, but I think in general you would have been better leaving them on the shelf.

   
Made in fi
Fresh-Faced New User




At least Orks have a relic that gives 5+ FNP and +1 Attack, Grey knights have a relic for 5+ FNP and +1 to save.
Chaos boys don't have repulsors, so buffing the land raider seems fair.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/07/04 11:09:58


 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut



London



They explain it with all the monies.

Really you all keep buying, so for them what is the issue?
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





How long have we had W2 Loyalists vs W1 Heretics.
They let that play out so long that if they have pushed themselves into a corner where they feel like they need to give CSM the edge for a while before nerfing, well I'm not surprised.

I haven't picked up the codex yet but I watched a review that gave me the impression that the Creations of Bile legion trait now applies to all units expect the ones that clearly state that they don't get the legion trait such as cultists. If so that feels like a bug bonus as much of your army can get the +1 to M&S. Before it was infantry (ex cultists) bikers and helbrutes.

I may have miss understood
   
Made in cl
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord






 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Edit: And I don't see very much in this dumpster fire that will "make CSM players happy".


Don't worry, the usuals will wheel out the pie charts and other such graphs to show us how CSMs are performing in who-cares tournament results, so of course the codex is just fine as-is and we should be happy, as all the complaints were about power level, amirite?


Games Workshop Delenda Est.

Users on ignore- 53.

If you break apart my or anyone else's posts line by line I will not read them. 
   
Made in us
Been Around the Block




to be honest if they gave the loyalist land raider upgraded lascannons tomorrow it still wouldnt fix the issue. The land raider Crusader and Redeemer would still be in their same pathetic state. All the loyalist variants need primaris transport. The land raider is non-functional if it can't transport basically all of the viable space marine infantry units.
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




Wait.... you were expecting GW to write rules and points that make coherent sense?
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






Sgt. Cortez wrote:
Hey, this is the first thread on dakka about the new CSM Codex that's not criticizing the unit options but instead the strength in the game. That's something new. As new as Land Raiders being strong units, which hasn't happened since... 3rd Edition? Or some Black Templars Crusader in between?


There was some whining about tripple LR lists being WAAC during 5th because someone won a tournament that way.

7 Ork facts people always get wrong:
Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other.
A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot.
Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests.
Orks do not think that purple makes them harder to see. They do think that camouflage does however, without knowing why.
Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor.
Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers.
Orks do not have the power of believe. 
   
Made in us
Morally-Flexible Malleus Hearing Whispers




Just wait, Marines 2.0 will drop, then CSM will start crying again. Then 10th will drop, and none of this will matter.
   
Made in us
Terrifying Doombull




1.) ALL the warlord traits have something additional, they are like one and a half warlord trait compared to other factions ( example, a warlord trait to give 5+ FNP AND ALSO that no wound rolls can be re-rolled against the warlord )

Meh? no reroll wounds is a thing they're handing out to entire subfactions, and its often marginal anyway. Some armies just won't have that, and some you're just turning off a single character aura. Its not that much of an ability

5+++ is neat, but can be very unreliable. Between the two of them, it doesn't really feel all that strong. Maybe 1.1 of a warlord trait, not much more.

Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
Made in gb
Slaanesh Chosen Marine Riding a Fiend





@OP

They justify it in their annual accounts. GW have been guilty of power-creep in almost every new codex released. Got to sell the new hotness.

Once sales stabalise and they milk one cash-cow they release an FAQ nerfing it then move on to the next golden goose.

Also...those pesky shareholders love dividends. If they are happy then GW have all the justification they need to sleep like a log at night.

Good to hear CSM are getting a bit of love for once but I think I will hold fire and see what the WE codex is like.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/07/04 13:52:01


Please note, for those of you who play Chaos Daemons as a faction the term "Daemon" is potentially offensive. Instead, please play codex "Chaos: Mortally Challenged". Thank you. 
   
Made in us
Committed Chaos Cult Marine





Now that I have the actual C:CSM in my possession and skimmed over it, I am pretty sure CSM aren't likely to take competitive/optimized play by storm. The faction isn't bad, but beyond Abaddon and few others, nothing struck me as wildly overpowered.

Addressing for numbered points, 1) Warlord Traits. Chaos Space Marines, for better or for worse, has largely been a faction that packs a lot of power in its individual characters as the cost of slightly weaker everything else (think, marines minus that CSM often are). I wouldn't put it past the rules designers that they give CSM better character buffs at the cost of squads and other units being a tad less impressive. At the same time, perhaps this a glimpse of things to come as 40k moves more toward herohammer, and all factions have buffed up HQ/character units.

2) Chaos Land Raiders. As pointed out, the Chaos Land Raider isn't the same points. I also don't see the increased Toughness and lascannon damage to shifting to a desirable unit for optimized lists. I mean, I plan on fielding my Chaos Land Raider next weekend in my first game with the new codex, but I am also the kind of player to bring 20 Reivers in a Primaris only army list. I run what I think is neat and try my best to make work. T9 isn't likely to save the Land Raider in current rules 40k, and d6+2 is just enough damage to give the tank some bite and not feel like a waste of points when I inevitably roll 1s and 2s for damage.

Honestly, GW has done a pretty poor job with the 9th ed C:CSM release in my opinion. I am still far more excited to play Chaos Knights as they have funner rules to me. And the ink in the Chaos Knight codex is still pretty new. New enough, I haven't even finished painting up my knights for games.

Then there is Horus Heresy, which really does have rules that for seasoned (read: older) players of some sort of marine are more attractive to how they likely think of their particular brand of marine works. I know I am looking forward to playing HH a tad more than playing my 40k Black Legion. To the point, I am back to considering Sons of Horus as my marine army to play how I envision them. And I really didn't like 7th ed rules and had a disdain for templates even before playing GW games.

Then there is the C:CSM release itself. The codex does get CSM onto 9th ed's level. Well, more than then kinda feeling like Sisters of Battle of Chaos with their 12ppm CSM, DttFE all the time and Armor of Contempt. But right now it is just the codex. Which is odd. As stated, my hobby backlog is pretty bad right now. I may just skip picking up anything new, at least for a long while. Well after GW re-ca-ka-jigs C:CSM with errata/FAQs or a CA which has proven to be a certainty at this point.

As a player that only fields their CSM army as Black Legion, I am rather unimpressed by what I have seen. I like good passive abilities such as subfaction abilities. And I don't really like either for Black Legion. Combat Attrition ignoring feels like a waste compared to 8th where if I wanted to my marines could have Leadership 10 (+1 Legion trait, Icon of Vengeance). And as a CSM player, I don't like the rules telling me what I should do that comes with +1 to hit the closest target. Both only kinda feel like the Black Legion to me. The changes for more active abilities such as strats seem to flavor the legions a lot more; A lot of CSM strats cost 2 CP. And my current impression is CSM went from CP hungry to starving for CP. So I don't know how often I'll be able to allow my Black Legion to feel like the Black Legion during games.

And finally, I had hoped that with Ababdon being more easily fieldable in other legions, that GW move away from the Warmaster carrying the Black Legion on his back. I don't really see that being the case still. It still feels like the reason you go Black Legion is to have a better Abaddon and not a whole else. With the Warmaster being so good, there is certainly a chance that the nerf hammer could come down on him, hard. As GW is often want to do. However, it's still early days, and I have yet play a game with this codex. However, I am not feeling this supercharging that the OP speaks of. Mostly just CSM stepping up the current level of power creep that is in 40k right now.
   
Made in us
Confessor Of Sins





Tacoma, WA, USA

ThulsaDoom wrote:
CadianSgtBob wrote:
There is no standard for what a WLT can give you so I'm not sure what your point is there.

And yes, the land raider got buffed. It was a truly awful unit before the buff and it probably still sucks. I'm not sure why you think it's a bad thing that the land raider isn't stuck in the same "nobody will ever use this" trash pile as the loyalist one. Should units never get buffed unless every similar unit also gets buffed at the same time, even when it isn't that faction's turn for a codex update?


My point here is, FIND me a warlord trait in a different codex that gives something beyond 5+ FNP, and as wound re-rolls are one of the strongest buffs to have in-game it would seem (to me, at least) that the CSM trait is leagues better than any other similar trait in ANY OTHER codex.

And yes, I like the LR buff, makes it kinda viable - but the loyalist one is still not viable. So, in the era of GW giving their customers updated sheet every single second, I wouldn't mind one more so that I could use them as well, instead of waiting for another 4 months before I am able to when the new balace dataslate drops that corrects that fact.

It is all rather simple, really.
I will site you the Adepta Sororitas Order of the Valorous Heart Warlord Trait Impervious to Pain. It gives the Warlord a 5+++ and each time the Warlord performs an Act of Faith, it regains a lost wound. Is that as good as no re-rolls to wounds? Maybe not, but it is more than a 5+++.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Grimtuff wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Edit: And I don't see very much in this dumpster fire that will "make CSM players happy".


Don't worry, the usuals will wheel out the pie charts and other such graphs to show us how CSMs are performing in who-cares tournament results, so of course the codex is just fine as-is and we should be happy, as all the complaints were about power level, amirite?

I legit don't think it's a strong codex. I think some people will use Red Corsairs because their objective game will be good, Abaddon will get use (and therefore maybe Black Legion), but otherwise? Eh. I haven't fully gone through the codex yet though.

I find that, even with the decent Legion Traits, the amount of standout units is a lot lower than other codices.
   
Made in hr
Been Around the Block




Kapteenigalaksi wrote:
At least Orks have a relic that gives 5+ FNP and +1 Attack


Sure, that 4 out of 11 HQ units (not counting named ones, ofc) can take - and out of those four, you don't want it on two of them - painboss and wurrboy, so that is kinda a very lousy example on your part. Viability 2/11. And also, who said anything about a relic OR trait?

Example: Custodes trait 5+ FNP and Death guard trait 5+ FNP , and nothing else, that seem fair to you?

Also, I'd take no wound re-rolls on my warlord over +1A ANY TIME OF DAY.
   
Made in gb
Gore-Drenched Khorne Chaos Lord




ThulsaDoom wrote:
Kapteenigalaksi wrote:
At least Orks have a relic that gives 5+ FNP and +1 Attack


Sure, that 4 out of 11 HQ units (not counting named ones, ofc) can take - and out of those four, you don't want it on two of them - painboss and wurrboy, so that is kinda a very lousy example on your part. Viability 2/11. And also, who said anything about a relic OR trait?

Example: Custodes trait 5+ FNP and Death guard trait 5+ FNP , and nothing else, that seem fair to you?

Also, I'd take no wound re-rolls on my warlord over +1A ANY TIME OF DAY.


I mean, it's not like a chaos lord, ork warboss, custodes captain or whatever have the same stats, abilities or access to stuff, it's almost like you need to take each unit and book in context.
   
Made in hr
Been Around the Block




Dudeface wrote:

I mean, it's not like a chaos lord, ork warboss, custodes captain or whatever have the same stats, abilities or access to stuff, it's almost like you need to take each unit and book in context.


You sarcastic point being...? Because models have different stats they should get different strength warlord traits? So if I take a trait on a unit that is weaker (read: cheaper) the trait should be stronger, and if the unit is stronger 8read: more expensive) the trait should be weaker?

If that's what you thought, you must be brilliant.

If not, please elaborate your train of thought for dunces like me.

   
Made in gb
Gore-Drenched Khorne Chaos Lord




ThulsaDoom wrote:
Dudeface wrote:

I mean, it's not like a chaos lord, ork warboss, custodes captain or whatever have the same stats, abilities or access to stuff, it's almost like you need to take each unit and book in context.


You sarcastic point being...? Because models have different stats they should get different strength warlord traits? So if I take a trait on a unit that is weaker (read: cheaper) the trait should be stronger, and if the unit is stronger 8read: more expensive) the trait should be weaker?

If that's what you thought, you must be brilliant.

If not, please elaborate your train of thought for dunces like me.



Let me break it down to a basic level as requested using an extreme example.

Imagine a ws/bs2 unit with stats of 10 across the board and a sx2 ap-5 no invuln saves d6 melee weapon.

Imagine a ws/bs4 unit with stats of 3 across the board, a s:user ap:- d1 weapon.

The first one gets a warlord trait of: +1a
Second one gets: warlord trait of: +1a, s, t, w, reroll all hits and wounds.

Which is better?
   
Made in dk
Loyal Necron Lychguard






The solution is having support WL traits and relics that are good even if they are not carried by 5A character and if you want to give players the ability to make a killy Sorcerer then give Sorcerers a unique way of adding extra melee power either through a relatively OP melee relic that Chaos Lords cannot take or some kind of upgrade Stratagem.
Dudeface wrote:
I mean, it's not like a chaos lord, ork warboss, custodes captain or whatever have the same stats, abilities or access to stuff, it's almost like you need to take each unit and book in context.

Do you think GW did that?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/07/04 17:43:17


 
   
Made in ca
Master Sergeant





This is such a dumb thread. CSM codex isn't bad but it's far from "supercharged", and most of their buffs are going to bring them merely in-line with all the 9th edition books that were released before this year.

Like have you just been in a coma for the last year? The game has been getting bulldozed by legitimately overpowered releases over and over almost without interruption, CSM is tame compared to the stuff we've seen drop in 2022 alone.

Complaining about the raider in particular is silly when CSM suffered 1 wound marines for nearly an entire edition cycle and loyalists will probably have all the new stats within a few months. And it's STILL barely scratching playability! Units having different stats in books of different ages is as old as Warhammer, and complaining about this change of all changes is just embarrassing.
   
Made in hr
Been Around the Block




Dudeface wrote:


Let me break it down to a basic level as requested using an extreme example.

Imagine a ws/bs2 unit with stats of 10 across the board and a sx2 ap-5 no invuln saves d6 melee weapon.

Imagine a ws/bs4 unit with stats of 3 across the board, a s:user ap:- d1 weapon.

The first one gets a warlord trait of: +1a
Second one gets: warlord trait of: +1a, s, t, w, reroll all hits and wounds.

Which is better?


In this "extreme" example of yours the obvious answer is that the second warlord trait is immeasurably superior one to anyone with a smidge of common sense.

What you obviously fail to understand is that this game does not provide different "strengths" of warlord traits depending on which model you select it for. Or maybe you believe it should do that?

In either case that makes you brilliant and no further explaining was needed as I obviously understood the meaning under the sarcasm from your first post.

I hope you understand mine and please reflect upon and enjoy your brilliance.
   
 
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