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So, for the longest time I've wanted to start a Chaos army. Now I am about to get a big paycheck, and the CSM codex dropped not long ago, so it seems like the perfect time.

However, the issue here is that the money I will get is not going to be infinite, and I do have other expenses in life. As such, I want to keep expenses in check as much as I can... Which means using the Combat Patrol as a basis for my starting 1k core group. You know, the box that has a Dark Apostle.

Can you guys think of any ways of reconciling this with the fluff of the Night Lords? I really love those guys, and I want to build a starting group as fluffy as possible, but as is the case with literally all things in life, money is getting in the way :(

Try third-party retailers who usually provide a discount, or second hand such as eBay or Troll Trader.

It's still a Chaos Space Marine, and plastic to boot. You will have some parts left over from other models which you can then use to convert the Dark Apostle to some kind of champion or the like. Or you could just have a more religious band of Night Lords. They probably also exist.

Possibly link it to the "rebirth" of Talos Valcoran as the prophet... I'm not big on the background from the novels but it seems like there's space for an emerging cult of personality there?

ETA: it also gives you some future direction to include Decimus as a Chaos Lord later on down the line if that floats your boat

I take it that Night Lords don't have Dark Apostles fluff wise?

If so,;
● as others have suggested, just convert him using other bitz.
● Trade/sell it off for another model.
● it's 1 model. So what if you don't use every Chaos model you own in this force?
● just use the Apostle as a stand alone painting project.
● Or, as a # of my minis get used for, a "paint test dummy". New paint techniques, color schemes, etc get tried on them before being applied to other minis. I tend to use cheap WK D&D minis for this myself, but a GW model would also work....
● NL never fight along side others? OK, so mixing faction rules is at best impractical in the current game. Just paint him different but apply NL rules to him anyways. Majority rules.... besides, it's not like whatever foe your fighting will make the distinction "Hey, THAT GUY isn't a Night Lord!"
Oh, and just avoid using any NL specific strats/relics/etc on him.

 TearsOfTomorrow wrote:
So, for the longest time I've wanted to start a Chaos army. Now I am about to get a big paycheck, and the CSM codex dropped not long ago, so it seems like the perfect time.

However, the issue here is that the money I will get is not going to be infinite, and I do have other expenses in life. As such, I want to keep expenses in check as much as I can... Which means using the Combat Patrol as a basis for my starting 1k core group. You know, the box that has a Dark Apostle.

Can you guys think of any ways of reconciling this with the fluff of the Night Lords? I really love those guys, and I want to build a starting group as fluffy as possible, but as is the case with literally all things in life, money is getting in the way :(

Fluff of the night lords is that they're disparate warbands that do what they want. And the 'night lords' trilogy is really only about that specific group of emo sadsacks (and even then, they were led by a full-fledged daemon prince for a while, so this idea that the NL don't really go in for chaos is just bizarre).

If it helps, the Night Lords were originally conceived as a Khornate legion (and had the banners and shoulder pad drawings in RoC Slaves to Darkness to prove it- all red bats and khorne runes).

Do what works for you. A super narrow vision of the fluff only matters if it clicks for you in some way- its a big galaxy and you can do your own thing.

I think the problem with the do what they want part is the fact that NL aren't religious to begin with. Would be like trying to find a devout catholic mystic in Czech Republic today. The NL are to unhinged to generate the devoution needed to become a dark apostol. There would also be a problem of training of a new NL one.


IMO the best way is to use the model as a Lord of Possesions or a Chaos Sorceror.

the fluff for my Warband is that the dark apostle chants about flaying people alive and stuff like that, empowering my dudes by inciting them to violence instead of juicing them with the gods. (then again, i don't follow the "no marks/daemons" part of the lore anyway)

Neither does GW. Its fanon.

The trilogy has a Night Lords daemon prince as their commander, and for one of the battle brothers, Khorne occupies roughly 75% of his brain-meat.

Night Lords as a whole, typically dont follow Chaos. But individuals with in the Legion can and do.

Some warbands look down upon those that do, such as the 10th Company. They look down upon the Exalted, but still follow him cause he's good at his job and they look down on Uzas as an unthinking Berzerker.

Then theres some warbands that seem ok with people doing the Chaos thing and follow a full on Daemon Prince (Krieg Acerbus)

Karol wrote:
I think the problem with the do what they want part is the fact that NL aren't religious to begin with. Would be like trying to find a devout catholic mystic in Czech Republic today. The NL are to unhinged to generate the devoution needed to become a dark apostol. There would also be a problem of training of a new NL one.


IMO the best way is to use the model as a Lord of Possesions or a Chaos Sorceror.

There are around 3 million Catholics in Czechia.

You are mixing up being christened and following a relgion. It is the most atheist country in central europ. On the flip side if someone researches my people, ortodox christians in Poland, we mostly act like pagans.

NL aren't anti chaos, anti mark or can't worship or follow specific gods. But being a dark apostol is very specific thing. It requires an unshakable faith in chaos. Same way being a chaplain for regular marine is. Most marines can't be chaplains. Having a NL dark apostol is a bit like having a catachan born and rised comissar.

There is no reason a Night Lord can't develope an Unshakable Faith in Chaos. They could over their many years of service have come to see it as the light and the way.

Or they could be a newer recruit who doesnt see things the way the older Legionaries do.

Dark Apostle is also just a unit name and it only actually means anything concrete to the Word Bearers.
All the Legions had Chaplains during the Crusade and Heresy but their role was to uphold the edicts of Nikea and act as morale officers. The name wasn't the same in every Legion as the Blood Angels had Wardens, the Salamanders had Voices of Fire and the Iron Hands had Iron Fathers. Spiritualism is not inherently religious and the Chaplains would help maintain the culture of their Legion.
For the Night Lords that would mean instructing inductees in the brutal methods of the Legion and ensuring each Astartes had the sadistic killing edge the 8th was famous for. By 40k plenty of the Legion had turned to Chaos worship and a Dark Apostle could fill the religious role proper or still act as the enforcer of the Legion rites and rituals.

A lot of great ideas were posted, you guys have given me a lot of food for thought! I sincerely thank all of you, except the two who tried to turn this into a debate about IRL religion.

Both options for kitbashing the apostle as something else, and options for actually writing the guy into my personal fluff, were given to me: at this point I guess it's just a matter of "feeling" which option clicks best with me. Thanks again guys!

You could just get the Horus Heresy starter set if you want to lean into the non-chaos aspect of the Night Lords. Convert up the HQs into 40K HQ equivalents, count some stuff as other stuff (Dark Apostle? No he's a fear-master), and you can still use the army to play 30K too.

Almost twice the price of the chaos combat patrol, but with some many MK6 marines that you could convert practically anything with spare bits. You get a proper tank too.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Actually if you picked up a box of the new age if sigmar deadwalkers, you could chop up parts of them to decorate models to designate them as terror squads for 30k or chosen for 40k.

You could make the HH starter box stretch pretty far if you have the funds for it and a varied bitsbox

Obviously the price point is a jump from £80 to £90 to £180 (less on both counts if you're buying from discounters of course) but echoing 'a fat guy' above, would the Age of Darkness starter be an option for you, since you don't seem to be wanting a Chaosified group of Night Lords? Using 30k Night Lords for 40k is a very popular thing to do, as well as being fluffy (plus you can always kitbash between 30k, CSM and Marine bits)

a fat guy wrote:
You could just get the Horus Heresy starter set if you want to lean into the non-chaos aspect of the Night Lords. Convert up the HQs into 40K HQ equivalents, count some stuff as other stuff (Dark Apostle? No he's a fear-master), and you can still use the army to play 30K too.

Almost twice the price of the chaos combat patrol, but with some many MK6 marines that you could convert practically anything with spare bits. You get a proper tank too.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Actually if you picked up a box of the new age if sigmar deadwalkers, you could chop up parts of them to decorate models to designate them as terror squads for 30k or chosen for 40k.

You could make the HH starter box stretch pretty far if you have the funds for it and a varied bitsbox

The "proper tank" you're reffering to is sadly one of the worst datasheet in 40k. Its a fething LoW lol.

a fat guy wrote:You could just get the Horus Heresy starter set if you want to lean into the non-chaos aspect of the Night Lords. Convert up the HQs into 40K HQ equivalents, count some stuff as other stuff (Dark Apostle? No he's a fear-master), and you can still use the army to play 30K too.

Almost twice the price of the chaos combat patrol, but with some many MK6 marines that you could convert practically anything with spare bits. You get a proper tank too.

Arbitrator wrote:Obviously the price point is a jump from £80 to £90 to £180 (less on both counts if you're buying from discounters of course) but echoing 'a fat guy' above, would the Age of Darkness starter be an option for you, since you don't seem to be wanting a Chaosified group of Night Lords? Using 30k Night Lords for 40k is a very popular thing to do, as well as being fluffy (plus you can always kitbash between 30k, CSM and Marine bits)

I had actually logged in today with the goal to inquire about the HH starter set, I'm glad to see others already brought it up.

Yes, if I rework my planned expenses I can indeed afford the HH starter set, and yes, it does indeed look like a cool and fluffy option for my army. However, the "proper tank" part is what worries me: don't get me wrong, the Spartan looks amazing, and I love a big tank as much as the next guy, but... I dunno, spending 400+ points and 4 CP for a vehicle that fits literally half my army, which pretty much guarantees that my opponent will Kylo Ren it off the table turn 1 and everyone inside will die, doesn't feel like the best investment of all times to me.

Would it be bad form to use it as proxy for a regular Land Raider? Or am I completely wrong about the Spartan, and actually using it on the table feels better than I'm anticipating right now? I would really appreciate some feedback on this.

If you don't mind the extended ramp, you can build the sponsons as regular twin-linked lascannons. The necessary bits are in the box. Or just proxy the Spartan as a regular land raider. But even if you don't need the land raider, the box is still a pretty good deal. 40 marines, 10 terminators, the dreadnought and the characters alone make it a good box compared to getting them separate. Maybe you can offload the Spartan (and the rulebook) to get some funds back?
As it currently stands, I don't think the Spartan is worth its points. Its transport role and weapons don't synergize that well, either. From experience though, four lascannons can feel very powerful when rolling hot, and you can do it twice per round

 TearsOfTomorrow wrote:

I had actually logged in today with the goal to inquire about the HH starter set, I'm glad to see others already brought it up.

Yes, if I rework my planned expenses I can indeed afford the HH starter set, and yes, it does indeed look like a cool and fluffy option for my army. However, the "proper tank" part is what worries me: don't get me wrong, the Spartan looks amazing, and I love a big tank as much as the next guy, but... I dunno, spending 400+ points and 4 CP for a vehicle that fits literally half my army, which pretty much guarantees that my opponent will Kylo Ren it off the table turn 1 and everyone inside will die, doesn't feel like the best investment of all times to me.

Would it be bad form to use it as proxy for a regular Land Raider? Or am I completely wrong about the Spartan, and actually using it on the table feels better than I'm anticipating right now? I would really appreciate some feedback on this.

Worst case scenario, you can always sell it on Ebay or FB Marketplace. They're going for between £40-50 right now and could be spent on a tank you actually want.

I can't be the only one who read the title and immediately thought of this:

 TearsOfTomorrow wrote:

a fat guy wrote:You could just get the Horus Heresy starter set if you want to lean into the non-chaos aspect of the Night Lords. Convert up the HQs into 40K HQ equivalents, count some stuff as other stuff (Dark Apostle? No he's a fear-master), and you can still use the army to play 30K too.

Almost twice the price of the chaos combat patrol, but with some many MK6 marines that you could convert practically anything with spare bits. You get a proper tank too.

Arbitrator wrote:Obviously the price point is a jump from £80 to £90 to £180 (less on both counts if you're buying from discounters of course) but echoing 'a fat guy' above, would the Age of Darkness starter be an option for you, since you don't seem to be wanting a Chaosified group of Night Lords? Using 30k Night Lords for 40k is a very popular thing to do, as well as being fluffy (plus you can always kitbash between 30k, CSM and Marine bits)

I had actually logged in today with the goal to inquire about the HH starter set, I'm glad to see others already brought it up.

Yes, if I rework my planned expenses I can indeed afford the HH starter set, and yes, it does indeed look like a cool and fluffy option for my army. However, the "proper tank" part is what worries me: don't get me wrong, the Spartan looks amazing, and I love a big tank as much as the next guy, but... I dunno, spending 400+ points and 4 CP for a vehicle that fits literally half my army, which pretty much guarantees that my opponent will Kylo Ren it off the table turn 1 and everyone inside will die, doesn't feel like the best investment of all times to me.

Would it be bad form to use it as proxy for a regular Land Raider? Or am I completely wrong about the Spartan, and actually using it on the table feels better than I'm anticipating right now? I would really appreciate some feedback on this.

Well, it's actually only 1CP for Martial Legacy now if you're using the current CA rules, as the Super Heavy Auxiliary Detachment is "free" if the LoW is from the same faction as your Warlord. But you could always sell/trade it off for something else if you want, as their currently a popular item. Spartans are much more useful in HH btw. AV14 all around + a Flare Shield is a pretty tough nut to crack.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 TearsOfTomorrow wrote:

a fat guy wrote:You could just get the Horus Heresy starter set if you want to lean into the non-chaos aspect of the Night Lords. Convert up the HQs into 40K HQ equivalents, count some stuff as other stuff (Dark Apostle? No he's a fear-master), and you can still use the army to play 30K too.

Almost twice the price of the chaos combat patrol, but with some many MK6 marines that you could convert practically anything with spare bits. You get a proper tank too.

Arbitrator wrote:Obviously the price point is a jump from £80 to £90 to £180 (less on both counts if you're buying from discounters of course) but echoing 'a fat guy' above, would the Age of Darkness starter be an option for you, since you don't seem to be wanting a Chaosified group of Night Lords? Using 30k Night Lords for 40k is a very popular thing to do, as well as being fluffy (plus you can always kitbash between 30k, CSM and Marine bits)

I had actually logged in today with the goal to inquire about the HH starter set, I'm glad to see others already brought it up.

Yes, if I rework my planned expenses I can indeed afford the HH starter set, and yes, it does indeed look like a cool and fluffy option for my army. However, the "proper tank" part is what worries me: don't get me wrong, the Spartan looks amazing, and I love a big tank as much as the next guy, but... I dunno, spending 400+ points and 4 CP for a vehicle that fits literally half my army, which pretty much guarantees that my opponent will Kylo Ren it off the table turn 1 and everyone inside will die, doesn't feel like the best investment of all times to me.

Would it be bad form to use it as proxy for a regular Land Raider? Or am I completely wrong about the Spartan, and actually using it on the table feels better than I'm anticipating right now? I would really appreciate some feedback on this.

Well, it's actually only 1CP for Martial Legacy now if you're using the current CA rules, as the Super Heavy Auxiliary Detachment is "free" if the LoW is from the same faction as your Warlord. But you could always sell/trade it off for something else if you want, as their currently a popular item. Spartans are much more useful in HH btw. AV14 all around + a Flare Shield is a pretty tough nut to crack.

Current plan is to figure out a list that can work, with some thing being proxied as other things, in both 30k and 40k. If I can do that, I will just play the damn thing as a Land Raider in 40k, and as a Spartan in 30k.

 TearsOfTomorrow wrote:

Spoiler:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 TearsOfTomorrow wrote:

a fat guy wrote:You could just get the Horus Heresy starter set if you want to lean into the non-chaos aspect of the Night Lords. Convert up the HQs into 40K HQ equivalents, count some stuff as other stuff (Dark Apostle? No he's a fear-master), and you can still use the army to play 30K too.

Almost twice the price of the chaos combat patrol, but with some many MK6 marines that you could convert practically anything with spare bits. You get a proper tank too.

Arbitrator wrote:Obviously the price point is a jump from £80 to £90 to £180 (less on both counts if you're buying from discounters of course) but echoing 'a fat guy' above, would the Age of Darkness starter be an option for you, since you don't seem to be wanting a Chaosified group of Night Lords? Using 30k Night Lords for 40k is a very popular thing to do, as well as being fluffy (plus you can always kitbash between 30k, CSM and Marine bits)

I had actually logged in today with the goal to inquire about the HH starter set, I'm glad to see others already brought it up.

Yes, if I rework my planned expenses I can indeed afford the HH starter set, and yes, it does indeed look like a cool and fluffy option for my army. However, the "proper tank" part is what worries me: don't get me wrong, the Spartan looks amazing, and I love a big tank as much as the next guy, but... I dunno, spending 400+ points and 4 CP for a vehicle that fits literally half my army, which pretty much guarantees that my opponent will Kylo Ren it off the table turn 1 and everyone inside will die, doesn't feel like the best investment of all times to me.

Would it be bad form to use it as proxy for a regular Land Raider? Or am I completely wrong about the Spartan, and actually using it on the table feels better than I'm anticipating right now? I would really appreciate some feedback on this.

Well, it's actually only 1CP for Martial Legacy now if you're using the current CA rules, as the Super Heavy Auxiliary Detachment is "free" if the LoW is from the same faction as your Warlord. But you could always sell/trade it off for something else if you want, as their currently a popular item. Spartans are much more useful in HH btw. AV14 all around + a Flare Shield is a pretty tough nut to crack.

Current plan is to figure out a list that can work, with some thing being proxied as other things, in both 30k and 40k. If I can do that, I will just play the damn thing as a Land Raider in 40k, and as a Spartan in 30k.

Sounds like a good plan. For what it's worth, I've been playing Night Lords for 20 years (started with the 3.5 codex), and the current HH rules are the best, most fluffy rules that the Legion has ever had, IMHO. I don't think you'll be disappointed. If you're playing them in 9th, make sure you're group is ok with Legends, as otherwise you can't give your characters jump packs.

I may not be able to help much.

As I have only my own experience at forming the Night Lordiest of Night Lord warbands.

I have 70 I have magnetized for talons and raptors.

My end goal is 100.

And then probably just more.

So I may not be able to help with good advice on how to proceed but I've at least hopefully given you insight into a pitfall in which you should avoid.

I regret, nothing!

I find it so weird when Chaos players get hung up on unorthodox Chaos Legion units breaking fluff boundaries when each and every named Special Character for Chaos has broken off with their father Primarch.

So Chaos Warbands doing things differently should be perfectly acceptable.

If you don't want to call him Dark Apostle, just come up with a different title. The Nightmare Keeper or something. The role of the unit is to inspire (and watch over and manipulate) their Traitor brothers, which is a job doubly important for a sneaky, back stabbing, paranoid Night Lord's warband.

There's a Night Lords Master of Possession who overthrew his leader during the Vigilus campaign called Praxis Empyrealus. At one point, he touched a Noctilith Crown which caused him to go super Saiyan and vaporize a whole bunch of Dark Angels. Warp Talons, which are basically daemon-infused Raptors, are commonly used by the Night Lords, as well as are heldrakes. The Night Lords also like to summon Furies. Having a Chaos-corrupted Night Lords warband is perfectly in line with the fluff.