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From being Squated to a new full army, come here to discuss tactics and general army details for Leagues of Votann!

Useful Warhammer Community Hype links.
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2022/07/28/lore-of-the-votann-who-are-the-guilds/
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2022/09/01/nova-open-reveal-the-leagues-of-votann-unveiled/
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2022/08/31/new-leagues-of-votann-rules-debut-in-todays-must-see-battle-report/
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2022/08/22/drop-the-wrench-and-pick-up-the-cannon-the-brokhyr-thunderkyn-are-marching-to-war/
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2022/08/15/lead-your-kinhost-from-the-front-with-the-skill-determination-and-giant-fist-of-a-leagues-of-votann-kahl/
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2022/08/11/no-wheels-are-better-than-three-how-leagues-of-votann-trikes-were-reimagined-and-redesigned/
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2022/08/01/the-leagues-of-votann-let-loose-the-augmented-fury-of-the-cthonian-berserks/
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2022/07/18/put-pedal-to-the-metal-aboard-the-rugged-leagues-of-votann-sagitaur-atv/


Automatically Appended Next Post:
First thing I will talk about is first impression from reading what I have seen, the BatRep, rumors/leaks, and some players I know that are play testing on TTS.

Overall it seems to be more of a Rock, Paper, Scissor army, a bit polarizing as they can be easily countered but at the same time depending on your list just wreck you. While they are very tough with defensive rules, over all the army has a low wound count. Taking 9-12 bikes, 60 troops, some elites, the Heavy Tank (Land Fortress), and the characters, you are looking at around 120-130 total wounds with most of them being 1w models and most of them on a 4+sv. Compare to say a normal DE army with 160-170 wounds with 60-70 of those having a FnP save. Yes they will be getting no re-roll wounds against them, and AoC, some units with an Invul, but on 1 wound models it really is more squishy than you would think.

Some counters to them are Speed (Quins, DE, CWE, Daemons), MW's (anything that can deal MWs) and Psychic heavy armies (Tsons, GKs, CWE, Daemons, Nids), also just large trash, like Guardsmen and Gants. I think Nids, CWE, and Daemons are a good example of hard counters.

But who are they good against? Elite armies for sure and armies that rely on toughness. Votann are kings at hurting tough things and if they are elite even better, Knights, Custodes, Tau, are all examples of armies they can really ruin. With ignore toughness for 1/2 the shots, ingoing Invuls, and it makes putting Judgement tokens on much easier.

Lastly, their Secondaries from leaks (my be wrong) seem pretty weak, they might struggle with secondaries pretty badly, I feel they will be taking 2 and 3 non faction Secondaries 90% the time.

Because of all of that, I feel they will be polarizing base on who plays them, you'll have some people completely hate them and others see them as a easy and fun game for their army.

I was a it excited for them. But I play SW. And they seem to share some anesthetics with SW, but also game mechanics.

One units can fight in death, heoric interween and they re-roll their charges. Sounds like Wulfen.

One armour gives fight last. Much like SW.

Both armies have a troop choise that is OK, but mostly just a detachment tax. Votan only has the one datasheet.

Further they have a lot of bolters, just better bolters. Their leaders also have a lot of buffs, much like SM characters.

They remind me of a different version of SM, SW more spesific. That beeing said the bikes with pregame moves are a bit like GSC, and something SW do not have. Further on the big cannon on their big car makes a good impression of the Tau rail gun. They have Terminators. I am unsure what their long ranged unit compares too.

Further they have the grudge tokens, that is very interesting.

Some first see list ideas

Hearthkyn Warriors spam

The idea is 90-100+ of their Troops, Medipacks, Magna, HYLast, and just have them all over. There are 2 ways to play this 1 is double ObSec body count and you get a free re-roll hit or wound per unit, you will just flood the objectives and win on points. The other is more tanky with +1T, having T5 troops and T6 elites/Bikes is going to really hurt a lot of armies effectively making a lot of attacks -1 wound.

Beserk rush!
3x10 units of Beserks and 3 Land Fortress, then the last points are 3 troops and 2 HQ's.
Option 2, 2x10 Beserks and 2x2 Sagitaurs, this splits your units and gives you a lot of speed with Melee punch.

The goal is to rush, charge, kill, get back into combat and fight on death. Try to multi charge if you can. The more you get into combat the more you kill. They basically fight twice with 4 attacks each as a 2D power sword or sweep (anti-horde) for 8 attack each with -3ap.

Biker Storm
3x6 Bikes, with 2 HYLas each and a Comms (gives them a 24" range to get their Kahl re-rolls aura, for 5pts its a steal), this comes out to 615pts, enough to fill out the rest of your army.

These bikes get a Pre-game move/deploy up to 12" (outside of 9" of enemy units), has ObSeC as well. Each unit at 24'' range gets 36 shots, at 12" it adds 12 more shots, all shots Str 5, 6, and 7, with AP and some at 2D. With a Kahl giving you a token, and ways to put a 2nd token on you are shooting at close range 48 shots with 19 hits auto wounds after re-rolls, and you are still getting another 20 hits through too.

Great with a dedicated thread!

First comment, disagree on Secondary Prospects of Wealth. Pioneers with Scanners give 3 VP for touching an Objective to eot with 1/3 of being 6VP (supposing you hold it end of game). That is good.

EDIT: corrected by more experienced players. Rather the three other are ok. Reasons:
Ancestors is points for what you are doing anyway and a 15 with care on JT placement and investment into extra JTs/turn (searchlight, GTL, etc.).
Grudge Match Similar to above. Get points for what you want to do anyway. 10+
Lay Claim Good vs fast armies than expect to be tabled anyway.

Second is that Grudges aka Judgement Tokens skew the math which is new and hard to assess. E.g. 20 Bolter Troops normally hit MEQ for 40 x 2/3 x 1/2 ~= 13 wounds before saves, but with 3 tokens it´s 40 x 0.5 = 20. 50% more wounds is quite the roi. Math heads out there will optimize this I reckon. Tokens come partly for free and partly under your control. How good is that? Remains to be seen.

 Scactha wrote:
Great with a dedicated thread!

First comment, disagree on Secondary Prospects of Wealth. Pioneers with Scanners give 3 VP for touching an Objective to eot with 1/3 of being 6VP (supposing you hold it end of game). That is good.

Second is that Grudges aka Judgement Tokens skew the math which is new and hard to assess. E.g. 20 Bolter Troops normally hit MEQ for 40 x 2/3 x 1/2 ~= 13 wounds before saves, but with 3 tokens it´s 40 x 0.5 = 20. 50% more wounds is quite the roi. Math heads out there will optimize this I reckon. Tokens come partly for free and partly under your control. How good is that? Remains to be seen.

The Tokens does change the math for sure, especially when you get to higher and lower toughness. Its better on higher toughness and basically is 1/2 as effective against lower toughness.

Now, as the full codex has leaked, they seem very strong faction. The main downside seems to be mobility and psychic defence. Also, they might struggle in fight phase without dedicated melee units.

I've also built couple of lists as initial start;

1000pts list


2000pts list


Both lists should be able to throw 3 judgement tokens per turn, which is essential when picking secondaries (ancestors are watching).

Teleport crests and Sagitaurs look like they'll go a long way in plastering over mobility. Weirdly it looks like going 2nd is going to be fine with LoV, get some judgement tokens down early before your first shooting phase.

Generic 2k list idea:
Edited for points! changed a few minor bits around to make it fit.

 Insularum wrote:
Teleport crests and Sagitaurs look like they'll go a long way in plastering over mobility. Weirdly it looks like going 2nd is going to be fine with LoV, get some judgement tokens down early before your first shooting phase.

Generic 2k list idea:

Spoiler:

Custom League (+1 Str, +1 to hit below starting size, +2 charge vs judgement token unit)
Battlion (10CP normal/2CP Nephilim games)

120 - High Kahl (WL: experienced eye, relic: flayre, bolter, rampart crest)
80 - Kahl (extra WL trait: a long list, extra relic: hearthfist, bolter, tele crest)

295 - Warriors (20, 2 rail rifles, 2 L7 missiles, comm, med, plasma sword, bolters)
135 - Warriors (10, HYlas, plasma beam, comm, med, ion blasters)
135 - Warriors (10, HYlas, plasma beam, comm, med, ion blasters)
110 - Warriors (10, ion blasters) - to be split deployed in Sagitaurs

250 - Hekaton (4 ion beams, rail cannon)
175 - Thunderkin (5, all grav)

120 - Beserks (5, all plasma axes, mole grenade) - for jumping out of the Hekaton
360 - Hearthguard (10, plasma guns/gauntlets all round, hammer and tele crest on Hesyr)

220 - Sagitaurs (2, MATR autocannons)

Both Kahls have judgement token manipulation traits, aiming to try and get 2 units tagged with 2+ tokens on turn 1, to then teleport the Hearthguard at - shoot one then charge the other on a 7+. Looks like this can be repeated each turn until either no CP or the Hearthguard die.

Backup Kahl isn't really needed for auras (comms on the good warrior units), can teleport to challenge objectives if the Hearthguard aren't jumping around, 7+ charge onto occupied objective's.

Splitting 1 squad in Sagitaurs seems the best way to make action units or cheap ablative bodies for harvesting extra judgement tokens, they'll just ride around finding somewhere useful to be or die.

Your points costs look like they're missing the ion blasters on Warriors, which are 1 ppm.

Thanks! moved a few minor bits around to make it fit based on not changing any boxes potentially being purchased.

I was thinking something like this so far, not sure yet, going to do some test games.

Champion
Kahl/Named
Grimnyr**
x10 troops, HYLas, Magna, Medi
x10 troops, HYLas, Magna, Medi
x10 troops, HYLas, Magna, Medi
x10 troops, HYLas, Magna, Medi
Beserks x10 with a Fortress
2x5 Hearthguards with crests
3x3 Bikes with HYLast

Grimnyr: I dont know if I really want this TBH, I like him but it takes away Abhor of the Witch.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
I was thinking something like this so far, not sure yet, going to do some test games.

Champion
Kahl/Named
Grimnyr**
x10 troops, HYLas, Magna, Medi
x10 troops, HYLas, Magna, Medi
x10 troops, HYLas, Magna, Medi
x10 troops, HYLas, Magna, Medi
Beserks x10 with a Fortress
2x5 Hearthguards with crests
3x3 Bikes with HYLast

Grimnyr: I dont know if I really want this TBH, I like him but it takes away Abhor of the Witch.

On the other hand, having psykers might help a bit with any mortal wound spam (at least of the psychic variety). I suppose it comes down to whether the other secondaries are sufficient to give up abhor the witch.

3 of the 4 secondaries are pretty bad IMO for Votann, so I dont want to rely on them, and if I am fighting casting power armies I need to kill those casters otherwise i'll most likely lose anyways. That is my thought at least. I am will to suicide the Champion and a unit of Beserks to kill 2 units if that means no more MWs from them. But you know variables and such.

I also thinking that the Fortress can carry 2 units, so 2x5 Beserks would be better most likely?

FWIW lets not forget the character assassinating monster that is the Forge Master.

110pts and A Long List WLT he can ignore look out sir and reliably pulp any MEQ character if they have a judgment token w/ 6 MW, 9 if you get lucky. spend 1 more CP for the relic gun for him to make it a beamer and do the same to any units between the Forge Master and the soon to be dead HQ.

couldnt get a judgment token on your target? 1cp for Personal Grudge to make them have 3.

I've been spectating a ton of practice games over this long weekend and my initial impressions are that they are offensively strong but slow, are impacted a lot by their short range, and more crucially they don’t score well. If your opponent doesn't use the available terrain to counter them well then you could be cruising to a win by mostly tabling the opponent by turn 3. The Leagues certainly look great but are nowhere near pre-nerf nids or today's harlequins. Big weakness to mortal wounds too, and a relatively low wound count for infantry on the table, so yes - with such low scoring Secondaries you have to make a really tough call between adding a Grim for psychic defense or taking Abhor the Witch.

I will absolutely need more time to come to grips with them just for familiarity's sake alone, but what I’m hearing and seeing from some top players in the TTS meta is that the judgment tokens are just a bonus and the hidden strength of the army is the beam weapons. One hit roll that can hit multiple enemy units at decent AP and D is really strong in their matches. I'm interested to see where they settle. The potential upside is very high, but there is positioning counterplay such that I'm hesitant to make a call on them for my lists without seeing more robust data, at least more than a bunch of weekend games using a leaked Codex.

One list that’s been fun to watch is 30 Beserks with mauls, 3 land fortresses with all beams, some minimum bikes for scoring, the troop tax and HQs all run as Ymyr.

The beam weapons basically dice apart anything in the open since the current interpretation is that they can hit many units with a single hit roll and Ymyr has a strat for MW on successful hits as well, though there's some discussion about whether that applies to the incidental attacks or just the targeted unit. That will likely see an FAQ to be honest. The fortresses are very difficult to kill which keeps those juicy Beserks alive until they need to pop out and mush something with a bucket of attacks at S10 -3 3D. The beam part honestly surprised me how effective it can be, but part of that could just be lack of familiarity from the opponent and there's some discussion around how it works with the stratagem.

I'm not at all surprised to see Beserks doing work. They have many of the most dangerous parts of Repentia's rules after all and I think we'll see Kronus grow in popularity, especially if you use many Sagitaurs to split max units into smaller deadly missiles that can do work and sacrifice themselves to rack up more Judgment bonuses on trades

Yep, I felt the same. Some major things to consider with their weaknesses

1) Low wound and model count
2) Short range and hard to adjust to and counter movements
3) Secondaries are harder than all A tier armies
4) MWs and spell protection are almost zero
5) Range is Mid and short at times

I've seen talk of Beam weapon spam too, but I really need to see their list, maybe +2" move on vehicles/Acc and longer range weapons to make sure you are shooting at what, when, and where you need? IDk I am still not sold of Beam spam.

But I do like the idea of Beserk Sagitaur, 2x10 and 1x2 Sags. Get some Beams and melee.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Yep, I felt the same. Some major things to consider with their weaknesses

1) Low wound and model count
2) Short range and hard to adjust to and counter movements
3) Secondaries are harder than all A tier armies
4) MWs and spell protection are almost zero
5) Range is Mid and short at times

I've seen talk of Beam weapon spam too, but I really need to see their list, maybe +2" move on vehicles/Acc and longer range weapons to make sure you are shooting at what, when, and where you need? IDk I am still not sold of Beam spam.

But I do like the idea of Beserk Sagitaur, 2x10 and 1x2 Sags. Get some Beams and melee.

I'm also not sold on beam spam. It looks like something that is really good on the surface until you consider how easy it might be to limit or eliminate it as a factor just based on your own movement. Legacy of Dorn comes to mind as an example: +1 damage is always powerful, but because of the nerfs to doctrines it is so easy to shut down. I'll be magnetizing the hell out of my votann vehicles, that's for sure lol

Ymyr does seem like the right place to go for beam spam as you gain that extra range, the stratagem, and the platforms you want to go heavy with it are the ones that work best with the invuln side of their custom. But on the other hand Kronus looks like the best place for Beserk spam since they end up stacking the same types of buffs that make Repentia so damn scary.

Outside of that, I really like the Hearthguard with a teleport crest and the Warpstryke relic in Ymyr. They're rocking a 4+ invuln anyway, and now they can use the site to site transport strat once a battle for free and they deny deep strike at 12". Seems like a solid big block anvil unit to hold the middle of the board with while giving them some options for immediately threatening somewhere else at a moment's notice.

[quote=Amishprn86 806768 11428090 e72bdf2c79f8bc7ad8a6f3599a257cc7.jpg
3) Secondaries are harder than all A tier armies

tneva82 wrote:
Does codex have special exemption as current battlepack bans every codex secondary?

It does not, though I would expect any such exemption would be added to an errata update to the Nephilim GT pack anyway since it is there that the limitation is applied in the first place.

tneva82 wrote:
[quote=Amishprn86 806768 11428090 e72bdf2c79f8bc7ad8a6f3599a257cc7.jpg
3) Secondaries are harder than all A tier armies

How about the quote? Link broken.

 wuestenfux wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
[quote=Amishprn86 806768 11428090 e72bdf2c79f8bc7ad8a6f3599a257cc7.jpg
3) Secondaries are harder than all A tier armies

How about the quote? Link broken.

I am sorry but i don't understand, what is the question?

What would a spam of the basic troop be? It seems their biggest weaknes is slow and short range. But i you have enough of them they will survive reaching the enemy?

 Niiai wrote:
What would a spam of the basic troop be? It seems their biggest weaknes is slow and short range. But i you have enough of them they will survive reaching the enemy?

Honestly, IDK bc I think they are one of the weaker units in the book. But I would do something like

Ok really thinking about it to be serious as serious as you can to just be full troop spam.

So something like this

YMYR for range or Urani for Toughness

Master Kahl 140
Lord Grim 100
Warriors x10 Ion Blasters x8, HYLas, Magna-rifle, Medi = 148
Warriors x10 Ion Blasters x8, HYLas, Magna-rifle, Medi = 148
Warriors x10 Ion Blasters x8, HYLas, Magna-rifle, Medi = 148
Warriors x10 Ion Blasters x8, HYLas, Magna-rifle, Medi = 148
Warriors x10 Ion Blasters x8, HYLas, Magna-rifle, Medi = 148
Warriors x10 Ion Blasters x8, HYLas, Magna-rifle, Medi = 148
1,128

Kahl 100
Warriors x10 Ion Blasters x8, HYLas, Magna-rifle, Medi = 148
Warriors x20 Ion Blasters x16, HYLas, Magna-rifle, L7 missile, Plasma Beamer, Medi, Comms, Scanner = 296
Warriors x20 Ion Blasters x16, HYLas, Magna-rifle, L7 missile, Plasma Beamer, Medi, Comms, Scanner = 296
840

1968pts

 Niiai wrote:
What would a spam of the basic troop be? It seems their biggest weaknes is slow and short range. But i you have enough of them they will survive reaching the enemy?

I think they would struggle in fight phase, but that's actually intresting concept for kronus hegemony.

The tactics here would be board control.
How much would this army cost?
Guess 11x 40 Euro for the Warriors and 3x 25 Euro for the HQs, makes it 500 Euro for the models.

 wuestenfux wrote:

Spoiler:

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 Niiai wrote:
What would a spam of the basic troop be? It seems their biggest weaknes is slow and short range. But i you have enough of them they will survive reaching the enemy?

Honestly, IDK bc I think they are one of the weaker units in the book. But I would do something like

Ok really thinking about it to be serious as serious as you can to just be full troop spam.

So something like this

YMYR for range or Urani for Toughness

Master Kahl 140
Lord Grim 100
Warriors x10 Ion Blasters x8, HYLas, Magna-rifle, Medi = 148
Warriors x10 Ion Blasters x8, HYLas, Magna-rifle, Medi = 148
Warriors x10 Ion Blasters x8, HYLas, Magna-rifle, Medi = 148
Warriors x10 Ion Blasters x8, HYLas, Magna-rifle, Medi = 148
Warriors x10 Ion Blasters x8, HYLas, Magna-rifle, Medi = 148
Warriors x10 Ion Blasters x8, HYLas, Magna-rifle, Medi = 148
1,128

Kahl 100
Warriors x10 Ion Blasters x8, HYLas, Magna-rifle, Medi = 148
Warriors x20 Ion Blasters x16, HYLas, Magna-rifle, L7 missile, Plasma Beamer, Medi, Comms, Scanner = 296
Warriors x20 Ion Blasters x16, HYLas, Magna-rifle, L7 missile, Plasma Beamer, Medi, Comms, Scanner = 296
840

1968pts

The tactics here would be board control.
How much would this army cost?
Guess 11x 40 Euro for the Warriors and 3x 25 Euro for the HQs, makes it 500 Euro for the models.

Doesn't seem costly tbh, I think some of the more costly things will be the 2 vehicles and the Hearthguard, I am worried the Fortress is going to be over $100 USD.

Yeah its about board control, but with slow movement, low range, and low wounds, idk if it would really be good at all.

Yeah its about board control, but with slow movement, low range, and low wounds, idk if it would really be good at all.

Depends on whether you have some ways to shift or deep-strike units.

Doesn't seem costly tbh, I think some of the more costly things will be the 2 vehicles and the Hearthguard, I am worried the Fortress is going to be over $100 USD.

Yeah its about board control, but with slow movement, low range, and low wounds, idk if it would really be good at all.

i imagine the fortress being over 100 easily. about as big as a repulsor executioner, and its a brand new model, and the level of detail is high meaning a more complicated mold.

ork kill rigs run 130 now, i wouldnt be surprised at all if the land tank lands at the same price point

terennNash wrote:

Doesn't seem costly tbh, I think some of the more costly things will be the 2 vehicles and the Hearthguard, I am worried the Fortress is going to be over $100 USD.

Yeah its about board control, but with slow movement, low range, and low wounds, idk if it would really be good at all.

i imagine the fortress being over 100 easily. about as big as a repulsor executioner, and its a brand new model, and the level of detail is high meaning a more complicated mold.

ork kill rigs run 130 now, i wouldnt be surprised at all if the land tank lands at the same price point

Yeah... I was thinking 110-130 for the Fortress and 70 for the Sagitaur, Hearthguard and Beserkers most likely 50. I am guessing i'll be spending around $700 for just 4 troops, 4 HQs, 6 bikes, 10 Hearths, 10 Beserks, and 2 Fortress. Which is a sold 2200 with upgrades, but is low model count.

I have a game Friday (if it doesn't get cancelled) i'm testing (so no paper 1k games, a full proxy 2k), i'll report back then.

My list is is not trying to test everything, but a few things, so I wanted 2 of each to really get the feel for them. I'll play against next week with more HQs (Grimnyr) and more maybe Troop/Sag heavy. I really want to test 2 shield Crest Hearthguards and see how they do, I know Beserks work if you can get them anywhere

Test list

Lord Kahl
Master Forge WLT/Relic
Champion Hammer
Troops x10 HYLas, L7, Medi
Troops x10 HYLas, L7, Medi
Troops x10 Magna, Beam, Medi (in Fortress)
Bikes x3 HYLas, Comms, Searchlight
Bikes x3 HYLas, Comms, Searchlight
Hearthguard x10, Shield crest
Beserks 2x5 (in Fortress)
Fortress
Fortress
(Should be right at 2k)

Edit: Added wargear so you know.
Edit again lol: I changed 1 little thing, in the list, I dont like Ions on only 3 troops, took them off for more upgrades.

Did a fun Votann game with 2 Fortresses and what I like. Honestly, it wasn't as much damage as I thought it was going to be. The bikes really didn't do much either. The Hearthguard and Champion was great, Beserks extremely good distraction unit after they get some melee in. I did win but it was honestly close up until T4. Neck to neck T2 and T3, end of T4 the Hearthguard and Champion was just too much.

My list was the list above, against a BT player with 2 Dreads, Gladiator Valiant, Helbrecht, 20 Crusaders, some Incursors, Eliminators, BGVs, GVs, with a Chaplain.

All proxy for now

Changes I would make, no Relic on the Forge Master, 1 unit of Warriors all Ions and a Magna for MWs output (this unit is the one in the Fortress). I would need to play a couple more times to see what else I would want to change. I did like YMYR but I think GTL will be better over all, but I love the invuls on units and extra range as well as the rapid fire range for bonus AP, it really fits well for me. But I am also thinking about Kronus, seems really good with Kahl, Champ, Beserks, and Hearthguard.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Did a fun Votann game with 2 Fortresses and what I like. Honestly, it wasn't as much damage as I thought it was going to be. The bikes really didn't do much either. The Hearthguard and Champion was great, Beserks extremely good distraction unit after they get some melee in. I did win but it was honestly close up until T4. Neck to neck T2 and T3, end of T4 the Hearthguard and Champion was just too much.

My list was the list above, against a BT player with 2 Dreads, Gladiator Valiant, Helbrecht, 20 Crusaders, some Incursors, Eliminators, BGVs, GVs, with a Chaplain.

All proxy for now

Changes I would make, no Relic on the Forge Master, 1 unit of Warriors all Ions and a Magna for MWs output (this unit is the one in the Fortress). I would need to play a couple more times to see what else I would want to change. I did like YMYR but I think GTL will be better over all, but I love the invuls on units and extra range as well as the rapid fire range for bonus AP, it really fits well for me. But I am also thinking about Kronus, seems really good with Kahl, Champ, Beserks, and Hearthguard.

Interesting. What guns did you run on the Hearthguard?
Plasma or Volkanite?