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Made in vn
Dakka Veteran




So Necron, Tyranids, and Harlequins are still OP as hell while Astra Militarum and Space Marines are pathetically weak (do you see the trend here?). And now LoV gets massively nerfed even before they see the light of day.

I really can't stand this business model. It's so easy to crush the LoV because they have few players still, whereas existing armies have legions of players and model-buyers who would not be happy with their armies being nerfed. Like, really? We all knew the Tyranid and Tau Codice were going to break the game in 2022, and GW released them anyway. But the LoV gets boycotted to the point of GW panicking? Come on.

As vexing as it is, I wish the LoV would win at least a few tournaments before they get nerfed. Then, people will also know better what makes them strong and adjust accordingly.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Necrons are OP? LOL
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut






Big brain take
   
Made in fi
5th God of Chaos (O'rly?)





EviscerationPlague wrote:
Necrons are OP? LOL


Well looking at goonhammer stats this year 3rd highest win rate behind tyranias and(barely) harlequins.

Secondaries in new ca plus general non-care about less cp's helped thbm quite a lot. They have nice easy secondaries from own faction.

2022 painted/bought: 681/867 
   
Made in it
Longtime Dakkanaut





It is interesting that "Barely above the acceptable power curve" is now called "OP as Hell".

Thanks for the update to my dakka dictionary, I was confused there for a second.
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




EviscerationPlague wrote:
Necrons are OP? LOL


Yes. This a useful tell that you have no idea what you are on about. Their secondary game is absurd(and by virtue of all-obsec, their primary game too). Plus the Silent King is mad. The book itself is... not great. But in terms of scoring they are off the charts.

The OP's argument makes no sense and is just weird. If a book is overpowered it should be nerfed. This should be continually reviewed and checked.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




EviscerationPlague wrote:
Necrons are OP? LOL

Yes. Just like Sisters, their power doesn't really come from their units (except possible TSK). Necrons have, by far, the most busted secondaries in the game right now. Combined with the ObSekh dynasty they can consistently score 40+ for their secondaries, often without much viable counterplay from the opponent.

The problem GW has created for itself is, if they nerf the Necron secondaries, in all likelihood the book will drop to being one of the weaker ones because their units are still pretty terrible.
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




Have the leagues been 'crushed'? I've not seen a game played with them post faq. In my estimation they still appear to be a very solid force. I've not looked at their secondaries so they may struggle there but they still have impressive firepower and decent options for mobility.

As for necrons, they need some changes so that they play like they should (they seriously lack resilience) and aren't overly reliant on a single custom dynasty and the latest set of secondaries. For those of us not playing using that particular setup they're pretty underwhelming and I have more success with my white scars than I do with my necrons.
   
Made in gb
Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon






See the controversial shot in the Battle Report? That no longer works 50% of the time. But it still works. Sure you may not want to be targetting stuff with Grudge Tokens (which now always prevent an Exploding Six), but there are still going to be enough times where that 6 to wound utterly ruins your opponents day by buttering a squad of infantry.

They’re still a pretty mobile army, thanks to HunTR. Slow yes, but no Shooting Phase reason to stay still, as there’s no trade off unless you choose to Advance.

Their Beam weapons can still be nasty, hitting as they do multiple units. Perhaps not devastating, but if you can wreck an armoured target and kill a few infantry at the same time? That’s always going to be preferable to just wrecking an armoured target alone.

The comments about Secondaries I can’t comment on, as I don’t exactly play 40K, so outside of “that gun are good”, because shooting hasn’t particularly changed, I’m just not informed enough. It is an interesting thing though which I might do another thread for. Mostly so I can learn more, but also because I think it might be interesting reading for most.

Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?

H.B.M.C, 27 July 2022. Suddenly the Chaos Codex doesn't seem so bad.

Not at all quote mined. 
   
Made in us
Hoary Long Fang with Lascannon






Leagues of votan are still going to be oppressive, even with the nerfs. Don't worry.

Wolfspear's 2k
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Spiderfangs 2k
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Made in us
Mekboy on Kustom Deth Kopta






LoV with the nerfs are still going to be winning games. when the codex leaked i got a lot of games against them proxying to help a friend prep for when they are tournament legal. they were marching through every army i have, and i literally have every army. een against my harlies it was liek i was at a 500 or so point disadvantage as then just autowounded/mortaled everything away. they are still very strong post nerf and you will see professor siegs and others bringing them to take big tournaments. all the nerf did was make sure the top 8 in every single tournament isn't just 8 LoV armies

10000 points 7000
6000
5000
5000
2000
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




tneva82 wrote:
EviscerationPlague wrote:
Necrons are OP? LOL


Well looking at goonhammer stats this year 3rd highest win rate behind tyranias and(barely) harlequins.

Secondaries in new ca plus general non-care about less cp's helped thbm quite a lot. They have nice easy secondaries from own faction.

So basically Nephilim (which isn't being used by everyone) and the Silent King are propping them up.

That's not being OP when part of the complaint is from a book a bunch of people don't use LOL
   
Made in ca
Master Sergeant





EviscerationPlague wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
EviscerationPlague wrote:
Necrons are OP? LOL


Well looking at goonhammer stats this year 3rd highest win rate behind tyranias and(barely) harlequins.

Secondaries in new ca plus general non-care about less cp's helped thbm quite a lot. They have nice easy secondaries from own faction.

So basically Nephilim (which isn't being used by everyone) and the Silent King are propping them up.

That's not being OP when part of the complaint is from a book a bunch of people don't use LOL


I mean if you're talking about comp everyone is using it, and in comp they win games and routinely score max (even if it is on the back of the silent king).

If you're not talking about comp then I have to assume you're some kind of open/narrative player so what you say is or isn't OP is kind of nebulous and fantastical and divorced from any sort of objective metric.
   
Made in ca
Hoary Long Fang with Lascannon






EviscerationPlague wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
EviscerationPlague wrote:
Necrons are OP? LOL


Well looking at goonhammer stats this year 3rd highest win rate behind tyranias and(barely) harlequins.

Secondaries in new ca plus general non-care about less cp's helped thbm quite a lot. They have nice easy secondaries from own faction.

So basically Nephilim (which isn't being used by everyone) and the Silent King are propping them up.

That's not being OP when part of the complaint is from a book a bunch of people don't use LOL


I don't know of anyone not playing Nephilim, it's the most common format the game is played in.

From what I've heard from folks playing with the Leauges of Votann on Vassel, even post nerfs, it just tables most armies it plays against lol. I feel like they will be getting the Drukhari treatment, where they will need multiple rounds of nerfs.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/10/03 16:33:35


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Fixture of Dakka






bibotot wrote:
So Necron, Tyranids, and Harlequins are still OP as hell while Astra Militarum and Space Marines are pathetically weak (do you see the trend here?). And now LoV gets massively nerfed even before they see the light of day.

I really can't stand this business model. It's so easy to crush the LoV because they have few players still, whereas existing armies have legions of players and model-buyers who would not be happy with their armies being nerfed. Like, really? We all knew the Tyranid and Tau Codice were going to break the game in 2022, and GW released them anyway. But the LoV gets boycotted to the point of GW panicking? Come on.

As vexing as it is, I wish the LoV would win at least a few tournaments before they get nerfed. Then, people will also know better what makes them strong and adjust accordingly.


We are getting a Balance slate within a few weeks, so those armies will be dealt with then, LoV most likely they wanted the fix bc it was leaked and ruining the army.

   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle





In My Lab

 jaredb wrote:
EviscerationPlague wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
EviscerationPlague wrote:
Necrons are OP? LOL


Well looking at goonhammer stats this year 3rd highest win rate behind tyranias and(barely) harlequins.

Secondaries in new ca plus general non-care about less cp's helped thbm quite a lot. They have nice easy secondaries from own faction.

So basically Nephilim (which isn't being used by everyone) and the Silent King are propping them up.

That's not being OP when part of the complaint is from a book a bunch of people don't use LOL


I don't know of anyone not playing Nephilim, it's the most common format the game is played in.

From what I've heard from folks playing with the Leauges of Votann on Vassel, even post nerfs, it just tables most armies it plays against lol. I feel like they will be getting the Drukhari treatment, where they will need multiple rounds of nerfs.
I don't play Nephilim. Usually use Tempest of War or something.

But, I'm not a tournament player. In tournaments, Necrons are doing pretty damn well.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Terminator with Assault Cannon






I love how secondary mission objectives are always pointed to as a primary reason one faction wins vs. another.

And yet so many people still refuse to acknowledge that the current mission design that relies so heavily on secondary mission objectives is the real issue.

Mike Brandt = The New Matt Ward

People need to stop obsessing over outcome of games.

Competitive play is fething cancer.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




They were clearly over powered they got nerfed. Why do people bitch about this?
   
Made in ca
Hoary Long Fang with Lascannon






 oni wrote:
I love how secondary mission objectives are always pointed to as a primary reason one faction wins vs. another.

And yet so many people still refuse to acknowledge that the current mission design that relies so heavily on secondary mission objectives is the real issue.

Mike Brandt = The New Matt Ward

People need to stop obsessing over outcome of games.

Competitive play is fething cancer.


There isn't anything wrong with competitive play. 40k just isn't a game well suited for it. Games workshop only officially advertises one of their games as competitive, and 40k isn't it.

As it is, the Generals Handbook is the best way to organize pick up games with folks you don't know so everyone is on the same page. It's the official standard, so it's the one everyone will use. So, as that is the case, secondaries are an important aspect to consider. You might not play games this way, but the majority do.

(I do find the modern chapter approved the most fun competitive format I've played).



Boosykes wrote:
They were clearly over powered they got nerfed. Why do people bitch about this?


Because folks latch onto every reason to complain about 40k.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/10/03 17:52:45


Wolfspear's 2k
Harlequins 2k
Chaos Knights 2k
Spiderfangs 2k
Ossiarch Bonereapers 1k 
   
Made in fi
5th God of Chaos (O'rly?)





EviscerationPlague wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
EviscerationPlague wrote:
Necrons are OP? LOL


Well looking at goonhammer stats this year 3rd highest win rate behind tyranias and(barely) harlequins.

Secondaries in new ca plus general non-care about less cp's helped thbm quite a lot. They have nice easy secondaries from own faction.

So basically Nephilim (which isn't being used by everyone) and the Silent King are propping them up.

That's not being OP when part of the complaint is from a book a bunch of people don't use LOL


Eh when people are talking about op they are generally referring to current mode of game.

2022 painted/bought: 681/867 
   
Made in gb
Mighty Brass Scorpion of Khorne




Boosykes wrote:
They were clearly over powered they got nerfed. Why do people bitch about this?


I don't know if it's the nerfing they're bothered about so much as the over zealous self back patting about how they've personally averted the course of disaster for the entire game and really stuck it to the company to teach them a lesson after (correctly) knee jerking over a leaked codex.

Note, that's not everyone, but some people as usual got too swept up in the anarchist persona.

Overall the nerfs are healthy for everyone, the book was clearly out of whack, but I think we need some actual event data for further tweaks.
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




 oni wrote:
I love how secondary mission objectives are always pointed to as a primary reason one faction wins vs. another.

And yet so many people still refuse to acknowledge that the current mission design that relies so heavily on secondary mission objectives is the real issue.

Mike Brandt = The New Matt Ward

People need to stop obsessing over outcome of games.

Competitive play is fething cancer.


Oh you posted this in a thread about Leagues of Votann, who are/were widely regarded as being strong DESPITE having poor secondary options. Good, good.
   
Made in fi
5th God of Chaos (O'rly?)





Dudeface wrote:
Boosykes wrote:
They were clearly over powered they got nerfed. Why do people bitch about this?


I don't know if it's the nerfing they're bothered about so much as the over zealous self back patting about how they've personally averted the course of disaster for the entire game and really stuck it to the company to teach them a lesson after (correctly) knee jerking over a leaked codex.

Note, that's not everyone, but some people as usual got too swept up in the anarchist persona.

Overall the nerfs are healthy for everyone, the book was clearly out of whack, but I think we need some actual event data for further tweaks.


Leaked codex? You realize right codex is out and has been played by people don't you?

2022 painted/bought: 681/867 
   
Made in gb
Mighty Brass Scorpion of Khorne




tneva82 wrote:
Dudeface wrote:
Boosykes wrote:
They were clearly over powered they got nerfed. Why do people bitch about this?


I don't know if it's the nerfing they're bothered about so much as the over zealous self back patting about how they've personally averted the course of disaster for the entire game and really stuck it to the company to teach them a lesson after (correctly) knee jerking over a leaked codex.

Note, that's not everyone, but some people as usual got too swept up in the anarchist persona.

Overall the nerfs are healthy for everyone, the book was clearly out of whack, but I think we need some actual event data for further tweaks.


Leaked codex? You realize right codex is out and has been played by people don't you?


People started the ban before the army box was released because the codex was leaked online.

The army box is sold out and you cannot buy a codex currently.
   
Made in de
Longtime Dakkanaut




They should have just changed Votann rules to match other armies like Tau or GSC on release.

Make Votann BS 4+ across the board (excluding characters, etc..)

Make 1 or more JTokens give +1 to hit (in shooting only), similar to GSC or Tau and disappear after each use / end of shooting phase

Bring up Strats like re-rolls against units with Tokens to 2-3 CP similar to those type of strats in other books (e.g. Ridgerunners).


Then they definitely aren't worse, and better then the above mentioned factions only by (still) far more points-efficient datasheets and better stats (but not core-rules imbalances) and things would be a bit easier to further tone them down as needed from there.
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




tneva82 wrote:
EviscerationPlague wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
EviscerationPlague wrote:
Necrons are OP? LOL


Well looking at goonhammer stats this year 3rd highest win rate behind tyranias and(barely) harlequins.

Secondaries in new ca plus general non-care about less cp's helped thbm quite a lot. They have nice easy secondaries from own faction.

So basically Nephilim (which isn't being used by everyone) and the Silent King are propping them up.

That's not being OP when part of the complaint is from a book a bunch of people don't use LOL


Eh when people are talking about op they are generally referring to current mode of game.


Some people are, some people aren't. If secondaries are propping up a faction (or on the flip-side, hampering a faction) in the tournament meta and only tournament results using those secondaries are used to inform balance then that skews the faction in all the other ways of playing the game. That's not healthy for the game as a whole.

Its also unhealthy for a single model to prop up a faction, that was painful for marine players when Guilliman was a similar tent-pole piece for that faction.

I hope that if the 40k design team are intent on using tournament only games to balance a faction (consistent and verifiable results makes those the obvious data choice) that when Nephilim rotates out they tone down the power of the Necron secondaries and then make some general bumps to the army and strip core from the Silent King. That seems better for the overall health of the game and more enjoyable/ rewarding to play against for those playing against them using the latest tournament pack too.
   
Made in gb
Lord of the Fleet






London

Sunny Side Up wrote:
They should have just changed Votann rules to match other armies like Tau or GSC on release.

Make Votann BS 4+ across the board (excluding characters, etc..)

Make 1 or more JTokens give +1 to hit (in shooting only), similar to GSC or Tau and disappear after each use / end of shooting phase

Bring up Strats like re-rolls against units with Tokens to 2-3 CP similar to those type of strats in other books (e.g. Ridgerunners).


Then they definitely aren't worse, and better then the above mentioned factions only by (still) far more points-efficient datasheets and better stats (but not core-rules imbalances) and things would be a bit easier to further tone them down as needed from there.



One easy fix would be that an enemy unit can only receive one token a turn (perhaps two using a Strat). Personally I'd also ditch the premise of "doing an action gives you a token"; as it stands if my Tau force either uses a Markerlight, drops Stormsurge anchors, moves a Tidewall or deploys a Support Turret, that's an automatic token for some reason.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 oni wrote:
I love how secondary mission objectives are always pointed to as a primary reason one faction wins vs. another.

And yet so many people still refuse to acknowledge that the current mission design that relies so heavily on secondary mission objectives is the real issue.

Mike Brandt = The New Matt Ward

People need to stop obsessing over outcome of games.

Competitive play is fething cancer.


Poorly balanced competitive play is a problem. The current secondary system sucks, and factions should probably not have faction-specific secondaries.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka




NE Ohio, USA

Hecaton wrote:
 oni wrote:
I love how secondary mission objectives are always pointed to as a primary reason one faction wins vs. another.

And yet so many people still refuse to acknowledge that the current mission design that relies so heavily on secondary mission objectives is the real issue.

Mike Brandt = The New Matt Ward

People need to stop obsessing over outcome of games.

Competitive play is fething cancer.


Poorly balanced competitive play is a problem. The current secondary system sucks, and factions should probably not have faction-specific secondaries.


Disagree on the last bit. Different forces SHOULD have different goals.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




ccs wrote:
Disagree on the last bit. Different forces SHOULD have different goals.


With how abstract the secondary system is, it's not really necessary. And it leaves too much room for "this faction has good secondaries, and this faction has bad ones."
   
 
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