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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




There it is as blunt as can be. Orkz should ignore all -1 to hit modifiers.

If a 3+BS army runs into a -1 to hit on 12 shots they go from 8 hits to 6, that is a 25% loss of dmg output.
If a 4+BS army runs into a -1 to hit on 12 shots they go from 6 hits to 4, that is a 33% loss of dmg output
If Orkz run into an -1 to hit on 12 shots they go from 4 to 2, a 50% loss of dmg output.

Honestly, its crushing. What is even worse for Orkz, is so much of our army has weapons which inflict dmg on a hit roll of 1 which means against a -1 to hit target you are as likely to hurt yourself as the enemy, and while its fluffy and funny, competitively it makes no sense, especially since there is no bang for your buck with those weapon systems. A great example of this was a friendly game I decided to take my rusting Morkanaut out for fun, well, my opponent had most of his army at -1 to hit which meant that my Morkanaut inflicted zero dmg to my opponent while also suffering about 3MW to himself before being killed.

Ork shooting should be relevant when you lean into it, at the moment a simple -1 to hit modifier defeats the entire concept.

 Tomsug wrote:
Semper krumps under the radar

 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




We already have a cap on -1 to hit, which already is stupid, and you want an army to completely ignore it? Emperors Children doing it is already a stupid army trait.
   
Made in us
Sneaky Sniper Drone




Pacific Northwest

9th Edition saying my Ghostkeel's two separate stealth abilities no longer stack was where I decided I don't like 9th.
Semper, I know you ran a friendly game, but what about 6's always hitting AND your ork ability where 6's add another die?

Dakka's Dive-In is the only place you'll hear what's really going on in the underhive. Sure, the amasec is more watery than a T'au boarding party but they can grill a mean groxburger. Just watch for the occasional ratling put through a window and you'll be alright.
It's classier than that gentleman's club for abhumans, at least.
- Caiphas Cain, probably

 
   
Made in fi
Locked in the Tower of Amareo





Yea unhittable units are so fun...

2024 painted/bought: 109/109 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Hmm. Orks getting heavily punished by -1 to-hit penalties does seem like a valid concern. Having your accuracy reduced by half doesn't sound like much fun.

The thing about straight up ignoring to-hit penalties is that it's also not much fun to have your to-hit penalty ignored. After all, units with baked in -1s paid points for it. Armies that get it as part of a chapter tactic gave up a different chapter tactic for it. Stratagems that grant -1s become non-options, and the interesting choices presented by dense cover go away. So while letting orks ignore to-hit penalties would have a significant pro, it would also have some significant cons.

I feel like recent books have been introducing more and more rules that basically shut down the enemy's benefits rather than providing new buffs/debuffs. See: daemons ignoring AP and various modifiers, AoC and squats ignoring a point of AP, various things ignoring cover, etc. So with that in mind, I feel like SemperMortis's proposal would probably be a net positive for game balance and be inkeeping with recent design trends. But I still don't love the idea.



ATTENTION
. Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
 
   
Made in ca
Gargantuan Gargant






With dense cover, strats, built in chapter tactics or unit rules with -1 to hit, Orks have an environment where the paradigm of lots of shots but bad accuracy doesn't work anymore, since that was initially based around the fact that there were very few modifiers that impacted your ability to hit. With the emphasis on trying to reduce dice rolling, GW won't inflate Ork shots to compensate for the plethora of negative to hit mods, nor will they up the quality or accuracy of most weapons to make things that go through count.

Frankly speaking, Orks used to have BS4+ way back before 4th ed, I would much prefer if that was the new baseline and tweak the Ork weapon stats/number of shots to reflect this.

If not, maybe change it so Dakka weapons ignore BS mods when within half range of enemies to reflect the veritable hail of bullets/explosives heading towards the enemy. This would, of course, mean changing more of Ork weapons to be Dakka type weapons and ideally also make it so that Dakka weapons allow Orks to advance and shoot them as if they were assault weapons.
(e.g. Rokkit launchas becoming Dakka 3/2, Snazzguns are Dakka 4/3). The issue with this is that it basically punishes taking all non-Dakka weapons. So maybe just make it ignore all hit mods when Ork ranged weapons are in half range (burnas and skorchas get +1 shot each instead).
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





If not, maybe change it so Dakka weapons ignore BS mods when within half range of enemies to reflect the veritable hail of bullets/explosives heading towards the enemy.

That seems like a decent approach. I'd be tempted to make it a flat distance (12 or 18 inches) rather than half range for the sake of having fewer numbers to remember and to avoid making longer-ranged weapons weirdly good at bypassing barrel rolls and camo cloaks. But I like the overall concept. Feels fluffy that dodging and hiding is harder up close. Lets the non-ork player maintain some benefits from their to-hit penalty rules. Gives the ork player some counterplay to the to-hit penalties without having to overhaul a bunch of stats.

Related tangent: I feel like some of the things that are to-hit modifiers could instead play with weapon ranges and targeting rules if GW doesn't want to bring back stacking to-hit mods. Stealthy units might be untargetable or only targetable when they're the closest enemy unit while they're more than X inches away, for instance.


ATTENTION
. Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




tneva82 wrote:
Yea unhittable units are so fun...

The only reason units became unhittable was because you could go beyond 6+ to hit and there aren't a lot of natural ways to add + to hit. The former part was fixed.
   
Made in ca
Gargantuan Gargant






 Wyldhunt wrote:
If not, maybe change it so Dakka weapons ignore BS mods when within half range of enemies to reflect the veritable hail of bullets/explosives heading towards the enemy.

That seems like a decent approach. I'd be tempted to make it a flat distance (12 or 18 inches) rather than half range for the sake of having fewer numbers to remember and to avoid making longer-ranged weapons weirdly good at bypassing barrel rolls and camo cloaks. But I like the overall concept. Feels fluffy that dodging and hiding is harder up close. Lets the non-ork player maintain some benefits from their to-hit penalty rules. Gives the ork player some counterplay to the to-hit penalties without having to overhaul a bunch of stats.

Related tangent: I feel like some of the things that are to-hit modifiers could instead play with weapon ranges and targeting rules if GW doesn't want to bring back stacking to-hit mods. Stealthy units might be untargetable or only targetable when they're the closest enemy unit while they're more than X inches away, for instance.


Fair point, and yeah that was my original intention was so there was some way for factions to still utilize their -1 to hit options rather than feel like Votann where not being able to reroll to wound and damage kills a huge number of rules interactions with the army. 18" is probably the best range since it still forces you to be close but not be in charge range where usually you would ignore the -1 to hit mods for most subfaction traits anyways once you get within that range.

Also, I think the closest GW has really gotten to using weapon ranges is with Harlequins and Shadowseers and that was pushed way too hard with all the other rules that Harlies had so unfortunately they're aware of it, they're just terrible of implementing it.
   
Made in gb
Lord of the Fleet






London

I don't see why this would be an issue, I'd be all for it.
   
Made in us
Sneaky Sniper Drone




Pacific Northwest

 Valkyrie wrote:
I don't see why this would be an issue, I'd be all for it.
Because like Wyldhunt was saying, units with -1 to hit have to pay for it. If my stealth suits didn't come with stealth fields they would suck. More than they already do. So for orks to ignore their namesake ability just on account of them being orks, well, then I would have to trade my Shadowsun in for a Farsight and I don't wanna do that!

So I'm on board with having -1 to hits not work in close range. It makes sense and keeps my Tau at a distance.
It could even be an ork ability:
YOU'Z CAN RUN BUT YAZ CAN'T HIDE
When rolling to hit with an Ork unit within 18" of a target, ignore any -1 to-hit modifiers.
Alternative title: WE'Z CAN SMELL YOR FEAR

Dakka's Dive-In is the only place you'll hear what's really going on in the underhive. Sure, the amasec is more watery than a T'au boarding party but they can grill a mean groxburger. Just watch for the occasional ratling put through a window and you'll be alright.
It's classier than that gentleman's club for abhumans, at least.
- Caiphas Cain, probably

 
   
Made in no
Liche Priest Hierophant





Bergen

Ironically since the 9th codex dropped the orks have been responsible for the following nerfs:

Restricting aircrafts to 2 in a 2000 point games because the ork airplanes where to good at shooting.

Restricting the number of orks buggies alloved because they where to good at shooting.

Giving freeboters (I think is the name) a new clantrait because they where to good at shooting.

Also increasing how the nonspeedwhaag worked because they all toom the speedwhag that increased shooting.

And the author of this thread wants to boost Ork shooting. That is kind of ironic.

   
Made in de
Regular Dakkanaut





 Niiai wrote:
Ironically since the 9th codex dropped the orks have been responsible for the following nerfs:

Restricting aircrafts to 2 in a 2000 point games because the ork airplanes where to good at shooting.

Restricting the number of orks buggies alloved because they where to good at shooting.

Giving freeboters (I think is the name) a new clantrait because they where to good at shooting.

Also increasing how the nonspeedwhaag worked because they all toom the speedwhag that increased shooting.

And the author of this thread wants to boost Ork shooting. That is kind of ironic.


Actually not.
1- was due to admech bombers, which also got a point hike.
2- Buggies had the problem of numbers, having 18+ vehicles on the board were way too many for so many reasons. Not just shooting alone.
3- That got reverted 2w after publishing. Most likely an error.
4- Nonspeedwaagh aka waagh, was pushed forward due to being really lackluster. Not due to how good speedwaagh might have been. It wasn't functional. We could even see a sales reason behind as models currently used are snagga related (squigs+killrigs+snaggaboys).

To add something else, speedwaagh has desappeared since AoCas it invalidates the most relevant part of it, the -1ap.



This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/10/05 09:11:52


 
   
Made in gb
Lord of the Fleet






London

 kingpbjames wrote:
 Valkyrie wrote:
I don't see why this would be an issue, I'd be all for it.
Because like Wyldhunt was saying, units with -1 to hit have to pay for it. If my stealth suits didn't come with stealth fields they would suck. More than they already do. So for orks to ignore their namesake ability just on account of them being orks, well, then I would have to trade my Shadowsun in for a Farsight and I don't wanna do that!

So I'm on board with having -1 to hits not work in close range. It makes sense and keeps my Tau at a distance.
It could even be an ork ability:
YOU'Z CAN RUN BUT YAZ CAN'T HIDE
When rolling to hit with an Ork unit within 18" of a target, ignore any -1 to-hit modifiers.
Alternative title: WE'Z CAN SMELL YOR FEAR


Well even ignoring the -1 they're still only hitting on 5+, I think your Stealthsuits will be pretty safe.

I still think it would be fine. Orks generally just spray fire without bothering to aim, so as a compromise we could say that hit modifiers are ignored for Dakka weapons only.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




maybe change how "-1 to hit" actually works?

e.g. roll to hit as usual, without modifiers, count how many hits you have, discard 1/6 of them - group the hits into groups of six, with one odd group for whats left, remove one hit from each group to a minimum of one hit left, then roll for damage

now Orks loose 1/6 of their hits, Marines loose 1/6 of their hits, everyone looses 1/6 of their hits.

if you have two "-1" to hit, or a "-2" again take those dice from the groups of six, to a minimum of one

thus -1 to hit has no effect on a weapon rolling only one dice where the 1d6 to hit is already swingy, but otherwise hits all incoming fir the same - those who are better at shooting still get more hits

pool the dice after anything that generates additional hits or subtracts hits
   
Made in no
Liche Priest Hierophant





Bergen

Orkimedez_Atalaya wrote:
 Niiai wrote:
Ironically since the 9th codex dropped the orks have been responsible for the following nerfs:

Restricting aircrafts to 2 in a 2000 point games because the ork airplanes where to good at shooting.

Restricting the number of orks buggies alloved because they where to good at shooting.

Giving freeboters (I think is the name) a new clantrait because they where to good at shooting.

Also increasing how the nonspeedwhaag worked because they all toom the speedwhag that increased shooting.

And the author of this thread wants to boost Ork shooting. That is kind of ironic.


Actually not.
1- was due to admech bombers, which also got a point hike.
2- Buggies had the problem of numbers, having 18+ vehicles on the board were way too many for so many reasons. Not just shooting alone.
3- That got reverted 2w after publishing. Most likely an error.
4- Nonspeedwaagh aka waagh, was pushed forward due to being really lackluster. Not due to how good speedwaagh might have been. It wasn't functional. We could even see a sales reason behind as models currently used are snagga related (squigs+killrigs+snaggaboys).

To add something else, speedwaagh has desappeared since AoCas it invalidates the most relevant part of it, the -1ap.





The freeboter change was in juli this year. ( https://www.reddit.com/r/WarhammerCompetitive/comments/vrl9hh/freebooterz_just_got_nerfed/ ) Not 2 weeks after the release, it came out September 2021.

While it is true that the admech lists had a lot of flyers in them (usually around 5) the orks had more (usually around 8).

The fact was that Ork lists based around shooting where very strong. Admech with flyers and rangers and dark eldar where the topp armies at the time. There is a particular case study where the dark eldar player got first turn and on his first turn the ork player shot every dark eldar off the board. I do not remember if it was litteraly every unit, but I think so. It gained a lot of traction since it was live streamed from a competetive event. Mind you in the rock, paper, scissor the orks countered the drukhari hard.

Details aside the buttom line is orks where overperforming massively, and those lists where all shooting based. Witch is ironic since the thread is about boosting Ork shooting.

   
Made in ca
Gargantuan Gargant






 Niiai wrote:
Orkimedez_Atalaya wrote:
 Niiai wrote:
Ironically since the 9th codex dropped the orks have been responsible for the following nerfs:

Restricting aircrafts to 2 in a 2000 point games because the ork airplanes where to good at shooting.

Restricting the number of orks buggies alloved because they where to good at shooting.

Giving freeboters (I think is the name) a new clantrait because they where to good at shooting.

Also increasing how the nonspeedwhaag worked because they all toom the speedwhag that increased shooting.

And the author of this thread wants to boost Ork shooting. That is kind of ironic.


Actually not.
1- was due to admech bombers, which also got a point hike.
2- Buggies had the problem of numbers, having 18+ vehicles on the board were way too many for so many reasons. Not just shooting alone.
3- That got reverted 2w after publishing. Most likely an error.
4- Nonspeedwaagh aka waagh, was pushed forward due to being really lackluster. Not due to how good speedwaagh might have been. It wasn't functional. We could even see a sales reason behind as models currently used are snagga related (squigs+killrigs+snaggaboys).

To add something else, speedwaagh has desappeared since AoCas it invalidates the most relevant part of it, the -1ap.





The freeboter change was in juli this year. ( https://www.reddit.com/r/WarhammerCompetitive/comments/vrl9hh/freebooterz_just_got_nerfed/ ) Not 2 weeks after the release, it came out September 2021.

While it is true that the admech lists had a lot of flyers in them (usually around 5) the orks had more (usually around 8).

The fact was that Ork lists based around shooting where very strong. Admech with flyers and rangers and dark eldar where the topp armies at the time. There is a particular case study where the dark eldar player got first turn and on his first turn the ork player shot every dark eldar off the board. I do not remember if it was litteraly every unit, but I think so. It gained a lot of traction since it was live streamed from a competetive event. Mind you in the rock, paper, scissor the orks countered the drukhari hard.

Details aside the buttom line is orks where overperforming massively, and those lists where all shooting based. Witch is ironic since the thread is about boosting Ork shooting.


No offense Niiai, but knowing your past posting history and the meta you play in, I really don't think you have a good take regarding how Ork lists work and how they're "overpowered". It always annoys me when people who don't even play Orks make these outlandish claims thanks to specific outliers and matchups that are not indicative of the entire army as whole. You even concede that in that specific scenario for the tournie that the DE player took no weapons that could counter ramshackle, which is certainly not the case in more balanced DE lists back then with widely available Dark Lances, and certainly not now with things like hyper magna rail weapons ignoring invulns.

Keep in mind that at the time Squigbuggies were much stronger due to having being cost-efficient for being able to shoot out of LoS (as with most units that had that ability, like Hive Guard) without the current shooting penalty for doing indirect fire. Meanwhile, no limit on flyers made sure opponents couldn't just hide behind obscuring terrain and flyers also could block charges if needed, which is what allowed freebootas speedwaaagh to leverage their ability to proc the +1 to hit across the army so consistently. Without that +1 to hit, it's a huge impact to Ork shooting performing consistently and the ability to have 9 cheap buggies that could shoot out of LoS is what allowed Orks to compete at the top tables. Notice that you never saw mass shoota boy, Flash Gitz, Tankbustas or Lootas being taken in droves. If Ork shooting was so good, it wouldn't just be scrapjets, flyers, and squigbuggies in all those lists. It was only a specific subset of Ork shooting that was able to have consistency and ability to proc the +1 to hit that allowed us to come close to other armies in terms of ranged firepower.

Also, you're wrong regarding the Freebooterz update and I don't think you understood what Orkimedes meant, he didn't mean after publishing the codex, but after the FAQ was released which was reversed two weeks after it was stealth added in, clearly it was from an early draft that GW scrapped later on, it was never intended to actually be released and using that as an example of how "OP" Ork shooting is is incredibly disingenuous and reflective of how you don't even know what you're talking about.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/10/05 15:56:27


 
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut





I think this is reflective of some of the issues found within the core mechanics of 40k in general.

2+ and 6+ are very extreme ends that are either too good, or too bad and 5+ becomes 6+ quite easily.

IMO any rules you come up with around this are just a patch on a system that is not really working.

And it also highlights how the WS and BS rules are at odds with the S vs T rules, as one goes up and down by 1 per modifier, while the other one only goes up or down based on relative difference between stats.


it should probably use a 3+, 4+ and 5+ scale with no mods but using a relative scale:

WS/BS= 4+
WS/BS> 3+
WS/BS< 5+

Use that comparative value and everyone is using what they pay for - hi BS gets you better shots, low BS gets you less shots.

You could abstractify Ballistic Skill to Firefight, to imply it is a defensive and offensive ability and just compare BS to determine success.


One of the biggest problems with 40k currently is that there are modifiers specifically to the dice, rather than to a number that generates a compartive difference. If the dice are fixed, then the modifiers happen to the stat instead.

It's the difference between +1S and +1 to wound.

The latter is absolutely superior and with the current SvsT rules, shouldn't exist.






   
Made in no
Liche Priest Hierophant





Bergen

 Grimskul wrote:
 Niiai wrote:
Orkimedez_Atalaya wrote:
 Niiai wrote:
Ironically since the 9th codex dropped the orks have been responsible for the following nerfs:

Restricting aircrafts to 2 in a 2000 point games because the ork airplanes where to good at shooting.

Restricting the number of orks buggies alloved because they where to good at shooting.

Giving freeboters (I think is the name) a new clantrait because they where to good at shooting.

Also increasing how the nonspeedwhaag worked because they all toom the speedwhag that increased shooting.

And the author of this thread wants to boost Ork shooting. That is kind of ironic.


Actually not.
1- was due to admech bombers, which also got a point hike.
2- Buggies had the problem of numbers, having 18+ vehicles on the board were way too many for so many reasons. Not just shooting alone.
3- That got reverted 2w after publishing. Most likely an error.
4- Nonspeedwaagh aka waagh, was pushed forward due to being really lackluster. Not due to how good speedwaagh might have been. It wasn't functional. We could even see a sales reason behind as models currently used are snagga related (squigs+killrigs+snaggaboys).

To add something else, speedwaagh has desappeared since AoCas it invalidates the most relevant part of it, the -1ap.





The freeboter change was in juli this year. ( https://www.reddit.com/r/WarhammerCompetitive/comments/vrl9hh/freebooterz_just_got_nerfed/ ) Not 2 weeks after the release, it came out September 2021.

While it is true that the admech lists had a lot of flyers in them (usually around 5) the orks had more (usually around 8).

The fact was that Ork lists based around shooting where very strong. Admech with flyers and rangers and dark eldar where the topp armies at the time. There is a particular case study where the dark eldar player got first turn and on his first turn the ork player shot every dark eldar off the board. I do not remember if it was litteraly every unit, but I think so. It gained a lot of traction since it was live streamed from a competetive event. Mind you in the rock, paper, scissor the orks countered the drukhari hard.

Details aside the buttom line is orks where overperforming massively, and those lists where all shooting based. Witch is ironic since the thread is about boosting Ork shooting.


No offense Niiai, but knowing your past posting history and the meta you play in, I really don't think you have a good take regarding how Ork lists work and how they're "overpowered". It always annoys me when people who don't even play Orks make these outlandish claims thanks to specific outliers and matchups that are not indicative of the entire army as whole. You even concede that in that specific scenario for the tournie that the DE player took no weapons that could counter ramshackle, which is certainly not the case in more balanced DE lists back then with widely available Dark Lances, and certainly not now with things like hyper magna rail weapons ignoring invulns.

Keep in mind that at the time Squigbuggies were much stronger due to having being cost-efficient for being able to shoot out of LoS (as with most units that had that ability, like Hive Guard) without the current shooting penalty for doing indirect fire. Meanwhile, no limit on flyers made sure opponents couldn't just hide behind obscuring terrain and flyers also could block charges if needed, which is what allowed freebootas speedwaaagh to leverage their ability to proc the +1 to hit across the army so consistently. Without that +1 to hit, it's a huge impact to Ork shooting performing consistently and the ability to have 9 cheap buggies that could shoot out of LoS is what allowed Orks to compete at the top tables. Notice that you never saw mass shoota boy, Flash Gitz, Tankbustas or Lootas being taken in droves. If Ork shooting was so good, it wouldn't just be scrapjets, flyers, and squigbuggies in all those lists. It was only a specific subset of Ork shooting that was able to have consistency and ability to proc the +1 to hit that allowed us to come close to other armies in terms of ranged firepower.

Also, you're wrong regarding the Freebooterz update and I don't think you understood what Orkimedes meant, he didn't mean after publishing the codex, but after the FAQ was released which was reversed two weeks after it was stealth added in, clearly it was from an early draft that GW scrapped later on, it was never intended to actually be released and using that as an example of how "OP" Ork shooting is is incredibly disingenuous and reflective of how you don't even know what you're talking about.



That's your take on it, and I respect you for it.

When orks where the topp of the meta, as they where at the time along admech and dark eldar, they where shooting based. Was the lists focused on a few good shooting datasheets, yes it was. Because that is the nature of 40K. Who cares if the 95% of data sheets in a codex is bad, it is the 5% people actually show up with that matters. Complaining that flashgitz are bad is about that datasheet beeing bad, not that ork shooting is bad. Was Ork shooting so good it needed to be nerfed, yes. Complaining about how bad they are after the nerf seems kind of missing the point of the nerf. It seems that what people are after is better internal balance when it comes to shooting datasheets in the ork codex.

   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





 Niiai wrote:
Orkimedez_Atalaya wrote:
 Niiai wrote:
Ironically since the 9th codex dropped the orks have been responsible for the following nerfs:

Restricting aircrafts to 2 in a 2000 point games because the ork airplanes where to good at shooting.

Restricting the number of orks buggies alloved because they where to good at shooting.

Giving freeboters (I think is the name) a new clantrait because they where to good at shooting.

Also increasing how the nonspeedwhaag worked because they all toom the speedwhag that increased shooting.

And the author of this thread wants to boost Ork shooting. That is kind of ironic.


Actually not.
1- was due to admech bombers, which also got a point hike.
2- Buggies had the problem of numbers, having 18+ vehicles on the board were way too many for so many reasons. Not just shooting alone.
3- That got reverted 2w after publishing. Most likely an error.
4- Nonspeedwaagh aka waagh, was pushed forward due to being really lackluster. Not due to how good speedwaagh might have been. It wasn't functional. We could even see a sales reason behind as models currently used are snagga related (squigs+killrigs+snaggaboys).

To add something else, speedwaagh has desappeared since AoCas it invalidates the most relevant part of it, the -1ap.





The freeboter change was in juli this year. ( https://www.reddit.com/r/WarhammerCompetitive/comments/vrl9hh/freebooterz_just_got_nerfed/ ) Not 2 weeks after the release, it came out September 2021.

While it is true that the admech lists had a lot of flyers in them (usually around 5) the orks had more (usually around 8).

The fact was that Ork lists based around shooting where very strong. Admech with flyers and rangers and dark eldar where the topp armies at the time. There is a particular case study where the dark eldar player got first turn and on his first turn the ork player shot every dark eldar off the board. I do not remember if it was litteraly every unit, but I think so. It gained a lot of traction since it was live streamed from a competetive event. Mind you in the rock, paper, scissor the orks countered the drukhari hard.

Details aside the buttom line is orks where overperforming massively, and those lists where all shooting based. Witch is ironic since the thread is about boosting Ork shooting.


As Grimskul points out, I refer to the removal of the FAQ regarding Freebootas.

As per the number of planes, 3 was the norm. I am still to see a list with 8. Very curious about how to move them around on a 60*44" table. 5 could be managed by admech cuz theirs can turn twice.

Problem was not Ork shooting, was buggy spam. More specifically squigbuggy spam. It was that good that it took 3 nerfs in a row. Have you seen any lately? I bet not. They got a price hike (now reverted), a # per squadron (now max 3 instead of 9), got hit by indirect fire (which is very hard on BS5+ models) and finally by AoC. Had its time in the sun and got burned ...badly.

Finally, of course we want good internal balance, who wouldn't? Good internal balance means you can compete within your faction with the minis you find more interesting, not with a mandatory subset.

Don't mistake a strong datasheet with a strong codex. Crutches only can take thus far. Ork shooting has serious design problems. Early imbalance was one of them and addressed already.
   
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The lists I saw had 3 dakkajets and 2 wazbok blastajet. Some had more.

Yeah most codexes would like good internal balance.

What makes for a trong codex depends on how you are measuring it. Some strong datasheets makes for a strong codex when you look at winning tournaments. At one point in time, early/mid 8th edtion, the only datasheets used by tyranid players was hive tyrants and ripper swarms. And that was a strong codex as it won tournaments. Now with the rule of three you need enouh strong datasheets to divide 2000 points on. These strong codexes tend to have short lifespans though as a nerf hikes them down to the regular datasheets.

   
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Bit of a tangent but why were the Squigbuggies so horrifically overpowered that they needed limiting? 2D6 S5 Ap-2 D2 shots are ok I guess.
   
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 Valkyrie wrote:
Bit of a tangent but why were the Squigbuggies so horrifically overpowered that they needed limiting? 2D6 S5 Ap-2 D2 shots are ok I guess.


They weren't, but you could take nine of them, they were relatively cheap, and the janky flyer rules meant you couldn't get close enough to shoot them if you deployed the buggies behind LOS blocking terrain because your front line would be 3-4 jets with a line of Scrapjets immediately behind it.
   
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To me, Orks don't aim, they fire at things in a directional sense. I can see the case that some smoke wouldn't change it. But a forest should, so I don't know, can't be reduced below 5s to hit?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/10/06 15:36:49





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An easier change is move to BS4+. Like it used to be. Full stop
   
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Orkimedez_Atalaya wrote:
An easier change is move to BS4+. Like it used to be. Full stop


But then your Orks are hitting as well as Guardsmen and Fire Warriors.

I agree that Orks need a bit of shooting, I honestly think the fluffiest and balanced way is "Dakka weapons don't suffer hit penalties".
   
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 Valkyrie wrote:
Orkimedez_Atalaya wrote:
An easier change is move to BS4+. Like it used to be. Full stop


But then your Orks are hitting as well as Guardsmen and Fire Warriors.

I agree that Orks need a bit of shooting, I honestly think the fluffiest and balanced way is "Dakka weapons don't suffer hit penalties".

That may be fluffy and balanced, but it still kind of stinks to have your unit's fluffy -1 to-hit penalty ignored. Stealth suits want to stealth. Shadow spectres want to to hologram. Which is why I like the idea of letting orks ignore to-hit penalties within a certain distance. The sneaky, dodgy units still get to sneak and dodge, but the orks can avoid fishing for 6s by just moving a bit closer. Which I'd argue is actually more interesting than the way most to-hit penalty rules work now. Counterplay is fun.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Hellebore wrote:

You could abstractify Ballistic Skill to Firefight, to imply it is a defensive and offensive ability and just compare BS to determine success.

If we were to go that route, I'd probably rather add an Evasion stat to the game. Some things are hard to hit without also being good at hitting things themselves.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/10/06 23:02:43



ATTENTION
. Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
 
   
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 Wyldhunt wrote:
 Valkyrie wrote:
Orkimedez_Atalaya wrote:
An easier change is move to BS4+. Like it used to be. Full stop


But then your Orks are hitting as well as Guardsmen and Fire Warriors.

I agree that Orks need a bit of shooting, I honestly think the fluffiest and balanced way is "Dakka weapons don't suffer hit penalties".

That may be fluffy and balanced, but it still kind of stinks to have your unit's fluffy -1 to-hit penalty ignored. Stealth suits want to stealth. Shadow spectres want to to hologram. Which is why I like the idea of letting orks ignore to-hit penalties within a certain distance. The sneaky, dodgy units still get to sneak and dodge, but the orks can avoid fishing for 6s by just moving a bit closer. Which I'd argue is actually more interesting than the way most to-hit penalty rules work now. Counterplay is fun.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Hellebore wrote:

You could abstractify Ballistic Skill to Firefight, to imply it is a defensive and offensive ability and just compare BS to determine success.

If we were to go that route, I'd probably rather add an Evasion stat to the game. Some things are hard to hit without also being good at hitting things themselves.



Well you know my feelings in using initiative as an evasion star given it pretty much reflects bang on.

But given we're talking about the current system, I figured not adding a stat would be easier

   
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 kingpbjames wrote:
Because like Wyldhunt was saying, units with -1 to hit have to pay for it. If my stealth suits didn't come with stealth fields they would suck. More than they already do. So for orks to ignore their namesake ability just on account of them being orks, well, then I would have to trade my Shadowsun in for a Farsight and I don't wanna do that!

So I'm on board with having -1 to hits not work in close range. It makes sense and keeps my Tau at a distance.
It could even be an ork ability:
YOU'Z CAN RUN BUT YAZ CAN'T HIDE
When rolling to hit with an Ork unit within 18" of a target, ignore any -1 to-hit modifiers.
Alternative title: WE'Z CAN SMELL YOR FEAR


To be blunt that would be useless and not only not fluffy, but not helpful with most Ork weapons that are "ranged" weapons. For instance, your 18' rule would benefit shootas and dakkaguns but leave heavy weapons functionally useless. Orkz don't aim besides in a general direction, so ignoring hit modifiers actually makes sense since they weren't aiming at the blur of your stealth suit, they were just aiming in your general direction

 Niiai wrote:
Ironically since the 9th codex dropped the orks have been responsible for the following nerfs:
Restricting aircrafts to 2 in a 2000 point games because the ork airplanes where to good at shooting.
Restricting the number of orks buggies alloved because they where to good at shooting.
Giving freeboters (I think is the name) a new clantrait because they where to good at shooting.
Also increasing how the nonspeedwhaag worked because they all toom the speedwhag that increased shooting.
And the author of this thread wants to boost Ork shooting. That is kind of ironic.


Not ironic if you know what you are talking about instead of this.

Orkz didn't cause that restriction, as mentioned it was Ad-Mech. Ork flyers were competitive, they weren't OP as proven by the fact that they didn't get a points hike but aren't taken anymore now that buggies were nerfed...almost like Orkz were using them as a shield....

Buggies: Buggies were actually fine as is, the problem was it was a skew list and GW always punishes orkz for bringing skew lists...even though they designed the entire ork army to be a skew army. And of the buggies the biggest "offender" was the Squigbuggy which wasn't even broken, but anytime orkz have anything good a lot of players like yourself have to complain about it because orkz aren't allowed to have good units.

Freebootas: already been debunked, but yeah, it was a mistake which they changed back quickly.

Waaagh: yea....because they nerfed the only competitive build for orkz into the ground and realized in doing so they bumped orkz from 3rd strongest (Compared to Ad-Mech/Drukhari) to bottom tier. Not to mention AoC completing defeating the Speedwaaagh so that suddenly the majority of the game ignores half the benefits of the trait.

 Niiai wrote:

While it is true that the admech lists had a lot of flyers in them (usually around 5) the orks had more (usually around 8).
The fact was that Ork lists based around shooting where very strong. Admech with flyers and rangers and dark eldar where the topp armies at the time. There is a particular case study where the dark eldar player got first turn and on his first turn the ork player shot every dark eldar off the board. I do not remember if it was litteraly every unit, but I think so. It gained a lot of traction since it was live streamed from a competetive event. Mind you in the rock, paper, scissor the orks countered the drukhari hard.
Details aside the buttom line is orks where overperforming massively, and those lists where all shooting based. Witch is ironic since the thread is about boosting Ork shooting.


You really shouldn't talk about things you don't know about. No competitive ork list was running 8 flyers. The most I ever saw was 5 I think the average was usually 3. If you took 8 you would have had to take one of the other 2 types of flyers which sucked.

The fact that at the time only 9 codex's released and orkz were 3rd at best and were dramatically behind DEldar. And the one game you were referencing was the SoCal open where at the Top table the Ork player basically tabled his opponent turn 1. The fact remains that the DEldar player admitted that before the first dice was rolled he knew he had lost because he just didn't have the weapons on the table to defeat that many vehicles and so decided to bum rush up the table and hope for the best.....and he failed every single charge while leaving his entire army in easy dakka range of the ork army. And ironically, ork shooting was piss poor at the time and the "shooting" lists relied almost exclusively on Squigbuggies to do the heavy lifting while also getting some decent CC out of their buggies.

 Niiai wrote:

When orks where the topp of the meta, as they where at the time along admech and dark eldar, they where shooting based. Was the lists focused on a few good shooting datasheets, yes it was. Because that is the nature of 40K. Who cares if the 95% of data sheets in a codex is bad, it is the 5% people actually show up with that matters. Complaining that flashgitz are bad is about that datasheet beeing bad, not that ork shooting is bad. Was Ork shooting so good it needed to be nerfed, yes. Complaining about how bad they are after the nerf seems kind of missing the point of the nerf. It seems that what people are after is better internal balance when it comes to shooting datasheets in the ork codex.


By your own admission the entire army was based on one or two datasheets, and the biggest sheet was the Squigbuggy which has gone through 3 separate nerfs and at this point in time we aren't seeing Ork shooting lists at all. SO yeah it makes sense to BUFF ork shooting.

 Valkyrie wrote:
Bit of a tangent but why were the Squigbuggies so horrifically overpowered that they needed limiting? 2D6 S5 Ap-2 D2 shots are ok I guess.


They weren't horrifically overpowered, the problem was that too many players are so used to beating up on orkz without trying that hard that when Orkz actually had a good datasheet the complaining was so epic that even GW heard it. Pre-Nerf squigbuggies were about as good as POST NERF Voidweavers.

 kingpbjames wrote:
9th Edition saying my Ghostkeel's two separate stealth abilities no longer stack was where I decided I don't like 9th.
Semper, I know you ran a friendly game, but what about 6's always hitting AND your ork ability where 6's add another die?


6s already always hit AND they got rid of the 6s add another hit roll which was a bad rule to begin with anyway. But put this in perspective, I paid 300+pts for a Morkanaut and when I shoot at anything in the game with a -1 to hit, I am as likely to hurt myself as my target....does that make sense to you? And as mentioned, orkz don't really aim, so giving them -1 to hit because you are stealthy isn't very fluffy. You get hit by the wall of lead not by the sniper shot.


 Tomsug wrote:
Semper krumps under the radar

 
   
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SemperMortis wrote:

To be blunt that would be useless and not only not fluffy, but not helpful with most Ork weapons that are "ranged" weapons. For instance, your 18' rule would benefit shootas and dakkaguns but leave heavy weapons functionally useless. Orkz don't aim besides in a general direction, so ignoring hit modifiers actually makes sense since they weren't aiming at the blur of your stealth suit, they were just aiming in your general direction

Hmm. Do orks have a lot of heavy weapons currently? The only weapons I'm pretty sure are heavy are rokkits, which are low rate of fire and thus probably not well suited for doing the "wall of lead" thing. I imagine a lot of the other heavy weapons would be vehicle-mounted meaning the to-hit penalty for moving and shooting isn't a thing, and their ability to move before shooting would mean you could take advantage of the proposed "ignore to-hit penalties while within 18 inches of the target" rule. You just have to be willing to move around and focus your fire on closer targets. Which, on paper, seems like a decent trade-off and pretty fluffy for orks? You just wouldn't be able to turn off enemy special rules with the units sitting comfortably in your back lines. That would give orks an interesting place as being a shooty army that is rewarded for moving towards the enemy and would avoid just cancelling out enemy special rules. The orks get stronger and fluffier than they are now, and your opponent's stealth suits still do *something*.

Happy to be corrected though. I don't play orks.


6s already always hit AND they got rid of the 6s add another hit roll which was a bad rule to begin with anyway. But put this in perspective, I paid 300+pts for a Morkanaut and when I shoot at anything in the game with a -1 to hit, I am as likely to hurt myself as my target....does that make sense to you? And as mentioned, orkz don't really aim, so giving them -1 to hit because you are stealthy isn't very fluffy. You get hit by the wall of lead not by the sniper shot.

Nonsense. You're more likely to hurt yourself than the enemy because successful hits still have to wound.


ATTENTION
. Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
 
   
 
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