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Made in gb
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Villanous Scum







I scored myself a copy of KoW rules at LGT this weekend gone and have had a flick through the rulebook. I have a ton of 6th ed. WHFB models and an opponent but little idea of whats the best place to start with the rules. What would people recommend as a good way to demo for utter noobs?

On parle toujours mal quand on n'a rien à dire. 
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Lord of Change





Albany, NY

At the end of this month there's an updated book coming out with a rules mode called Ambush, intended to give a better 750-1000 point experience for new players. Going to guess that's the place to aim demos at, no doubt using your WHFB collection

I'll circle back when we've got more details on how this proper support for smaller games works, but in the meantime, you can do the classic 'make two 1000 point armies and slam together on a 4x4 table' like we've been doing for years. You'll note that the scenarios in the main book often have a version for smaller games / tables, with fewer objectives for example.

You'll very likely want to use an army builder, of which there are at least three online now:

https://mantic.easyarmy.com/KingsOfWar
https://tacticalwargames.world/kings-of-war-list-builder/
https://kingsofwartools.github.io/listbuilder/

EasyArmy is the official Mantic one, that has a nominal fee to save lists and print out full special rules but can be used for free as well. The other two I believe are totally free (I just pay for EasyArmy and virtually all tournaments require lists in EasyArmy format).

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2022/10/03 15:31:27


KOW BATREPS: BLOODFIRE
INSTAGRAM: @boss_salvage 
   
Made in us
Watches History Channel




Columbia, MD

I also started playing Kings of War about two months ago. I am using my historical medieval army which I also use in Oathmark and a number of other games. It was playable out the gate, but to make it play better and to give it a bit more “Old World” feel, I have been adding some fantastical elements to it. I’ve nearly brought it up to 2,300 and will be taking it to an event the first weekend of December.
[Thumb - 4DB2EFD7-76E4-49A9-9A3C-B41BD475C395.jpeg]

[Thumb - 93134E75-53AD-413A-8677-B71FBD511CFD.jpeg]

[Thumb - DC48872A-F715-4B1A-9BC6-780FBAE0742B.jpeg]

[Thumb - 36BDB35E-9503-4565-B176-2A4D6A74D178.jpeg]

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/11/25 13:44:30


Rivetbull "Overkill is always enough" 
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Lord of Change





Albany, NY

That's a magnificent dire boar! And a charming wee dragon

KOW BATREPS: BLOODFIRE
INSTAGRAM: @boss_salvage 
   
Made in us
Brigadier General






Chicago

Great to hear about folks getting into KoW.
I've got my compendium and while I don't think it will be as compelling as a bigger game, the small game rules do look like nice guidelines to keep small games fairly balanced. They also provide a nice starting point for building an army.

Currently working on my second KoW army built from Runewars Daqan (Armored human knights mostly). I can't get over how much I like that virtually any minis can be used with the game as long as the unit foot print is right.

To that end, folks adapting figures on 25mm round bases for units that traditionally are based on 20mm squares might find this useful:
https://www.etsy.com/listing/1293425959/large-mdf-movement-trays-20-25-40-50
It's been hard to find bases with 25mm holes where they're tightly arranged enough to get a near-100mm frontage with 4 25mm bases. These are the cheapest I've found at 3 bucks each. I'm going to buy a mess of the 4x5 bases, make the 4-base side my front and cut off most of the back two ranks. That will put 12 figures (instead of 20) on a base that is as close as possible to an 100x80 (standard regiment size for 20mm based infantry) base with an edging.

I could just use the plastic 100x80 movement trays I've got, but I'd like something that will hold the figures a bit more securely.


 ingtaer wrote:
I scored myself a copy of KoW rules at LGT this weekend gone and have had a flick through the rulebook. I have a ton of 6th ed. WHFB models and an opponent but little idea of whats the best place to start with the rules. What would people recommend as a good way to demo for utter noobs?

I missed this the first time around. Did you ever try the rules. I've you've got a bunch of 6th edition figs, you're already on your way. Just pick your favorite army find it's analogue in the rules and get going.

Chicago Skirmish Wargames club. Join us for some friendly, casual gaming in the Windy City.
http://chicagoskirmishwargames.com/blog/


My Project Log, mostly revolving around custom "Toybashed" terrain.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/651712.page

Visit the Chicago Valley Railroad!
https://chicagovalleyrailroad.blogspot.com 
   
Made in us
Watches History Channel




Columbia, MD

I use Ironheart Artizans trays for my 25mm circle based troops, pictured above. They do great work.

Rivetbull "Overkill is always enough" 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Central Valley, California

 Rivetbull wrote:
I use Ironheart Artizans trays for my 25mm circle based troops, pictured above. They do great work.


I second iron heart -- they are so convenient and are also good quality.

Enjoy KOW!

~ Shrap

Rolling 1's for five decades.
AoS * Konflikt '47 * Conquest Last Argument of Kings * A War Transformed  
   
Made in us
Brigadier General






Chicago

I do like the ironheart artisans trays. There's only a buck fifty savings from the ones I'm looking at on Etsy, but I can cut the Etsy trays deep enough to be the full 80mm depth proscribed by KoW.

5mm isn't that much, but if I'm going to invest in trays and pay more, I want it right. I'm really not sure why more mdf companies aren't making 25mm adapter trays that deliberately come as close as possible to specific sizes needed for KoW. There's no reason that 25mm round base trays couldn't be 80mm deep and no more than 105 wide. KoW is probably the biggest rank and flank game right now and the one most likely to incorporate minis on round bases from other games. Further, an 100x80 block regiment is probably the most common tray size for the game.

LItko has one that's very close at (108x90) though slightly oversized and 3 times the price.

https://litko.net/collections/movement-trays/products/rank-tray-4x3-formation-25mm-circles

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/12/06 20:46:49


Chicago Skirmish Wargames club. Join us for some friendly, casual gaming in the Windy City.
http://chicagoskirmishwargames.com/blog/


My Project Log, mostly revolving around custom "Toybashed" terrain.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/651712.page

Visit the Chicago Valley Railroad!
https://chicagovalleyrailroad.blogspot.com 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Central Valley, California

 Eilif wrote:
I do like the ironheart artisans trays. There's only a buck fifty savings from the ones I'm looking at on Etsy, but I can cut the Etsy trays deep enough to be the full 80mm depth proscribed by KoW.

5mm isn't that much, but if I'm going to invest in trays and pay more, I want it right. I'm really not sure why more mdf companies aren't making 25mm adapter trays that deliberately come as close as possible to specific sizes needed for KoW. There's no reason that 25mm round base trays couldn't be 80mm deep and no more than 105 wide. KoW is probably the biggest rank and flank game right now and the one most likely to incorporate minis on round bases from other games. Further, an 100x80 block regiment is probably the most common tray size for the game.

LItko has one that's very close at (108x90) though slightly oversized and 3 times the price.

https://litko.net/collections/movement-trays/products/rank-tray-4x3-formation-25mm-circles


I know, this may seem odd -- but the tray acquisition are kind of a barrier to entry for the game. You can pop open a box of Song of Ice and Fire and have everything you need. Takes some homework and legwork to get rolling with anythng proper for KOW

~ Shrap

Rolling 1's for five decades.
AoS * Konflikt '47 * Conquest Last Argument of Kings * A War Transformed  
   
Made in us
Brigadier General






Chicago

 Shrapnelsmile wrote:


I know, this may seem odd -- but the tray acquisition are kind of a barrier to entry for the game. You can pop open a box of Song of Ice and Fire and have everything you need. Takes some homework and legwork to get rolling with anythng proper for KOW

I really hope that's not the case. That would suggest a precipitous drop in the intellect and resourcefulness of the current wargamers in a wargaming community which has been selling, buying and playing rank-and-flank wargames without included movement trays for 4+ decades now.

If you're using non-KoW figures It's probably a minor issue as you have to look for the tray to fit the figures you want to use in the best configuration.

For KoW, however, the figures come with the right size square bases and you can easily buy a tray of the correct size from Kow if you wish to place them on a movement tray. If for some reason you're not sure, about bases and trays, it's in the first section of the rulebook so you can just as easily cut out squares of cardboard (which we did at first) to place your figures on at first.

Yes, SOIAF gives you trays in the box but it's almost the only rank-and flank game that does and its sort of essential that they do since they chose to base their minis on round bases for a game that moves in square blocks. Runewars had a similar arrangement, but those two games are by far the minority for such games which either tend to rank up figures that are themselves on square bases (and often specific configurations of those bases determine unit footprint) or they opt for multibased "elements" (something KoW also encourages)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/12/07 03:37:36


Chicago Skirmish Wargames club. Join us for some friendly, casual gaming in the Windy City.
http://chicagoskirmishwargames.com/blog/


My Project Log, mostly revolving around custom "Toybashed" terrain.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/651712.page

Visit the Chicago Valley Railroad!
https://chicagovalleyrailroad.blogspot.com 
   
Made in pl
Horrific Hive Tyrant





 Eilif wrote:


Yes, SOIAF gives you trays in the box but it's almost the only rank-and flank game that does and its sort of essential that they do since they chose to base their minis on round bases for a game that moves in square blocks. Runewars had a similar arrangement, but those two games are by far the minority for such games

Conquest: the Last Argument of Kings also gives you trays in the box as its models have round bases as there are both R&F and skirmish version of the game.
   
Made in us
Brigadier General






Chicago

 Shadow Walker wrote:
 Eilif wrote:


Yes, SOIAF gives you trays in the box but it's almost the only rank-and flank game that does and its sort of essential that they do since they chose to base their minis on round bases for a game that moves in square blocks. Runewars had a similar arrangement, but those two games are by far the minority for such games

Conquest: the Last Argument of Kings also gives you trays in the box as its models have round bases as there are both R&F and skirmish version of the game.

Interesting. That seems like a rather clever way of doing things, having two rulesets, What's the unit size in terms of figures-per-unit for that game? From what I can see it does look like they have denser packed figures than a game like SOIAF, but also smaller units than something like KoW.

The trend in some of these games (SOIAF, Runeward and and CLAOK) towards bigger figures, on bigger bases with fewer figures per unit is an interesting one. SOIAF puts 12 figures in an area (140x122mm) over twice as large as 40 standard 20mm-square-based figures in WHFB or KoW (80x100). It's easier for the gamer to paint up a force, the bigger figures compete with the visual impact of other modern games (40k, MCP, etc) and it's certainly cheaper for the company to produce when units have 1/4 to 1/2 as many figures per unit.

It's worth pointing out that KoW has been leaning slightly in this direction with more focus on multi-basing and "Preferred Model Count" which allows for 25% less figures in the same unit footprint.

Chicago Skirmish Wargames club. Join us for some friendly, casual gaming in the Windy City.
http://chicagoskirmishwargames.com/blog/


My Project Log, mostly revolving around custom "Toybashed" terrain.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/651712.page

Visit the Chicago Valley Railroad!
https://chicagovalleyrailroad.blogspot.com 
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Lord of Change





Albany, NY

Shrapnelsmile wrote:I know, this may seem odd -- but the tray acquisition are kind of a barrier to entry for the game. You can pop open a box of Song of Ice and Fire and have everything you need. Takes some homework and legwork to get rolling with anythng proper for KOW
Soooo I'll agree, it's a little weird that Mantic boxes don't come with MDF unit bases in the correct size or sub-sizes, but do come with individual bases, despite the game using those less and less apart from solos. Forcing us on to third party tray makers - right? Mantic doesn't make a unit tray kit? - seems strange and maybe bad. Potentially missed revenue too, tho I can see not wanting to invest in their own MDF lasers on top of everything else. I get it, WHFB was all single square bases and that's the model ... but even GW made a tray kit eventually, even if it took work to make them look good (G A P S).
Eilif wrote:It's worth pointing out that KoW has been leaning slightly in this direction with more focus on multi-basing and "Preferred Model Count" which allows for 25% less figures in the same unit footprint.
Luke Warm Take: 75% looks a lot better too, especially if you're using Mantic's more over-scaled lines, like Northern Alliance. Gives room for the basing to breath / rewards doing anything with the base beyond being a secure surface to tetris 5-60 dudes onto.

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2022/12/07 15:49:29


KOW BATREPS: BLOODFIRE
INSTAGRAM: @boss_salvage 
   
Made in at
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Austria

Mantic makes units trays as in real trays for the individual models not unit bases with the correct base size

less of a problem for infantry as you can glue the individual bases directly together but for everything else you need something to glue them on
and for it was never a big problem to use the given bases in the box to make a unit base out of it, and it is more flexible that way

that said I think the big difference here is that those games make models only for their own games, were Mantic has still a larger customer base that plays with individual models which would cry out loud on the internet if those are replaced with unit bases

Harry, bring this ring to Narnia or the Sith will take the Enterprise 
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Lord of Change





Albany, NY

I was today days old when I discovered Mantic makes hard plastic trays: https://www.manticgames.com/games/kings-of-war/accessories/



I've never seen these in person or online before

And yea, I was thinking about Mantic's own single model skirmish games and how we're being a little KOW-centric wanting KOW boxes to have KOW trays. (That came off more flippantly than I intended!)

KOW BATREPS: BLOODFIRE
INSTAGRAM: @boss_salvage 
   
Made in at
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Austria

funny, I see them online a lot, usually as the favourite item of the KoW range if the shop sorts by that and usually sold out all the time (and gone as soon as stock comes in)

but thinking of it, one problem with unit bases coming with the boxes is the different size
they would need to use regiment bases with a cutting line to still be flexible enough for people to be happy (troop base alone won't do it neither regiment base without "help" to cut into troops)

Harry, bring this ring to Narnia or the Sith will take the Enterprise 
   
Made in pl
Horrific Hive Tyrant





 Eilif wrote:
 Shadow Walker wrote:
 Eilif wrote:


Yes, SOIAF gives you trays in the box but it's almost the only rank-and flank game that does and its sort of essential that they do since they chose to base their minis on round bases for a game that moves in square blocks. Runewars had a similar arrangement, but those two games are by far the minority for such games

Conquest: the Last Argument of Kings also gives you trays in the box as its models have round bases as there are both R&F and skirmish version of the game.

Interesting. That seems like a rather clever way of doing things, having two rulesets, What's the unit size in terms of figures-per-unit for that game?

For human sized troops it is 12 (4 models per tray) or more, for ogre sized or cavarly it is 3 (1 model per tray)or more, for giant sized it is 1 model per unit/tray. Non giant sized units can be expanded so typical troop choice is 12 models or more, and ogre sized or cavalry is 3 or more. Check it here https://eshop.para-bellum.com/10-conquest

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/12/08 10:22:25


 
   
Made in gb
[MOD]
Villanous Scum







@Eilif
Did not get around to it yet, limited pay time was taken up with Legion and WHFB 6th. Still intend to have a crack but will wait till the new year. Following the thread with interest though.

From reading the last few posts it seems like the unit footprint is all thats important and models are not actually required?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/12/08 12:19:06


On parle toujours mal quand on n'a rien à dire. 
   
Made in at
Second Story Man





Austria

exactly, the unit footprint and easy to identify (as in 2 different units are not identical in models) are the 2 important things for the game, everything else is up to the player

Harry, bring this ring to Narnia or the Sith will take the Enterprise 
   
Made in us
Brigadier General






Chicago

 Boss Salvage wrote:
[Soooo I'll agree, it's a little weird that Mantic boxes don't come with MDF unit bases in the correct size or sub-sizes, but do come with individual bases, despite the game using those less and less apart from solos. Forcing us on to third party tray makers - right? Mantic doesn't make a unit tray kit? - seems strange and maybe bad. Potentially missed revenue too, tho I can see not wanting to invest in their own MDF lasers on top of everything else. I get it, WHFB was all single square bases and that's the model ... but even GW made a tray kit eventually, even if it took work to make them look good (G A P S).
.

Mantic makes and sells reasonably priced plastic movement trays.
https://www.manticgames.com/?s=TRAY



 Boss Salvage wrote:
Luke Warm Take: 75% looks a lot better too, especially if you're using Mantic's more over-scaled lines, like Northern Alliance. Gives room for the basing to breath / rewards doing anything with the base beyond being a secure surface to tetris 5-60 dudes onto.

I'll partly agree with this as regards increasing model size. Mantic did a pretty good job in the early days designing figures that fit well on the size bases they were supplied with which also corresponded to WHFB sizes. Things have gotten bigger over the years and they're pushing the limits of what will fit on ranked 25mm squares.

As for "room for basing" however, this suggests a fundamental difference in the way some folks are now approaching the modeling for rank and flank games. Previously, basing just wasn't that important because one of the glories of a rank-and-flank game is the tightly packed ranks of figures. Almost no one playing WHFB was overly concerned about the basing of their densely packed ranks of footmen. When I put my KoW Chaos army together I did put some emphasis on basing with every unit having broken ground basing. However, they're still on their square proscribed bases and tightly ranked up and I think it's a darn impressive look.

Now however, the emphasis (perhaps obsession) among loose order and skrimish games (40k, Warmahordes, etc, etc..) regarding sceniced bases seems to have pushed into the rank-and-flank market. Mantic has started to embrace this with preferred-model-count and multibasing which has the advantage for them of tying the figures to KoW only. SOIAF embraced this by with basing, spacing and tray size so large that it might not even be "rank" from a modeling perspective because the figures are so sparsely arranged on their bases that if they weren't in lines it might look like loose-order.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
ingtaer wrote:@Eilif
Did not get around to it yet, limited pay time was taken up with Legion and WHFB 6th. Still intend to have a crack but will wait till the new year. Following the thread with interest though.

From reading the last few posts it seems like the unit footprint is all thats important and models are not actually required?


kodos wrote:exactly, the unit footprint and easy to identify (as in 2 different units are not identical in models) are the 2 important things for the game, everything else is up to the player


Agreed.
KoW is very much an "Element" based system like many older traditional rank and flank games, so as long as units are the right size and recognizable you are free to model as desired.

If you're already playing WHFB6th, your figures are probably already organized and on bases and movement trays of the appropriate sizes for KoW. KoW still adheres very closely to WHFB basing conventions it was originally based off of and in most cases the army lists are organized to incorporate most WHFB units.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2022/12/08 14:42:47


Chicago Skirmish Wargames club. Join us for some friendly, casual gaming in the Windy City.
http://chicagoskirmishwargames.com/blog/


My Project Log, mostly revolving around custom "Toybashed" terrain.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/651712.page

Visit the Chicago Valley Railroad!
https://chicagovalleyrailroad.blogspot.com 
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Lord of Change





Albany, NY

Eilif wrote:However, they're still on their square proscribed bases and tightly ranked up and I think it's a darn impressive look.
FMC (Full Model Count) is an aesthetic choice that I and many players appreciate. I have one legacy army that I've maintained as individual models magnetized to steel unit trays, like we did back in ye olde day. But playing with multi-based regiments is also really nice, with storage being a dream. Also I'll note how common 'unit fillers' (like a 40mm big guy taking up the place of 4x 20mm small guys, or a 60mm tree for 9x 20mm grunts if you were feeling stingy) were in WHFB days, probably to cut cost but also to add visual interest. It wasn't all wall to wall dudes.
kodos wrote:exactly, the unit footprint and easy to identify (as in 2 different units are not identical in models) are the 2 important things for the game, everything else is up to the player
I'll note that the relative heights of models are helpful to represent as well for LOS purposes. While you can play KOW entirely top down (and plenty people do online), in our 3D world units are better served as cuboids with height values for ease of play. Or, you know, models that approximate these heights

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2022/12/08 16:06:07


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