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2022/10/05 12:08:25
Subject: Marine troops, what gives?
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Liche Priest Hierophant
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Where do you stand on troops when you play SM?
Personally I play SW and I do not like the troops at all. Og Grey Hunters and Blood Claws are fine when compared to regular marines. But neither SW spesific or regular marine troops are good.
There are cheaper units if you want to just stand on objectives. They are more durable then say servitors. But 9th is so deadly the SM die easally enough if people want to kill them. And the troops do not kill enough for their points.
Heavy interacessors are fat enough to stand a punch. The infiltraiting units have some slight utility uses for one or two units.
But it mostly feel like a tax to not loose 3 CP. What do you people feel about troops? And what sort of army do you run?
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2022/10/05 12:19:53
Subject: Marine troops, what gives?
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Veteran Wolf Guard Squad Leader
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For my wolfspear army, I run three squads of incursors. Good for missions where you need to hold objectives to get CP, they are fairly cheap, haywire mines are useful, and they are not completely terrible in melee. Good for early board control/area denial.
Sometimes (If I have the points), I'll run a squad of infiltrators instead of one of the incursor squads. they really mess up folks who rely on reserves, and the med-kit give them surprising durability.
Not every unit needs to kill it's points to be worth inclusion, and I find that I'd want to run these units even if I wasn't running a battalion.
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Wolfspear's 2k
Harlequins 2k
Chaos Knights 2k
Spiderfangs 2k
Ossiarch Bonereapers 1k |
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5012/02/07 13:39:16
Subject: Marine troops, what gives?
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Been Around the Block
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Marine Troops suffer really bad from AoC. In most matchups they can achieve little beside standing on an objective. Meta has shifted so far that people tend to bring enough AP to the board to shoot marines from objectives anyway, meanwhile our troops still don’t do enough damage to kill AoC units. So yeah, they are tax units. Infiltrators seem like the only exception due to their forward deployment
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2022/10/05 14:23:06
Subject: Marine troops, what gives?
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Liche Priest Hierophant
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I mostly play orks, but also death guard, black Templars and Tau.
I think the ork and death guard might scewer my impressions of the troop slot in the codex. The guns and the melee options are very bad VS orks. I do not kill T5 with S4. And both of them will take a huge chunk out of what ever marines they attack into.
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2022/10/05 16:04:29
Subject: Marine troops, what gives?
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Mekboy Hammerin' Somethin'
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I would look into whatever scores you the most VP in the shortest time frame, for the cheapest points costs. Otherwise, go for whatever gets you the most utility.
I don't play any marine armies, so I can't tell you what fits that niche.
An example for my Orks;
Gretchin are beyond awful on paper, but they are super cheap and score VP quickly and easily by camping a home plate objective, or rushing to midfield and doing Get the Good Bitz. Then they tend to die, very quickly. But they've scored me a decent chunk of points, so it's fine. They also ride in my Battlewagon to soak some wounds when the wagon inevitably explodes.
Trukk boys are also fast moving troops that can either jump on an objective early, or charge something turn one that I really do not want shooting my more valuable units. They don't hit hard, and they generally due turn two or three after being a nuisance for a bit, but ultimately they score me points.
If you have a unit that can do those things then that's probably the troops choice to go with.
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2022/10/05 17:21:29
Subject: Re:Marine troops, what gives?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Assault Intercessors are actually good, even with the hit to AP-1 vs a ton of armies. Weight of attacks and the Sergeant having decent options helps. Sorta comparable to how with CSM the melee route is the better option. I would make an argument for Assault Bolt Rifle Intercessors if you're running White Scars too since they don't lose effectiveness advancing and shooting.
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2022/10/06 02:14:06
Subject: Marine troops, what gives?
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Kinebrach-Knobbling Xeno Interrogator
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For my Deathwatch, my entire army is Troops! (But that's cheating).
For my Imperial Fists, I use Infiltrators, Intercessors, and Heavy Intercessors.
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2022/10/06 04:58:36
Subject: Marine troops, what gives?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Vilgeir wrote:For my Deathwatch, my entire army is Troops! (But that's cheating).
For my Imperial Fists, I use Infiltrators, Intercessors, and Heavy Intercessors.
I've legit not bothered to look at Deathwatch in a long time. They're a decent Troop, but the issue is they're stuck with a terrible army rule.
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2022/10/06 05:13:07
Subject: Re:Marine troops, what gives?
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Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain
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Marines troops are overcosted and have been for a while now. I'm hoping whenever the next points update happens we'll end up something like this:
Tactical Squad: 16 ppm
Intercessor Squad: 18 ppm
Assault Intercessor Squad: 17 ppm
Incursor Squad: 20 ppm
Infiltrator Squad: 22 ppm
Heavy Intercessor Squad: 24 ppm
Plus whatever costs for upgrades. Or, for tacticals, keep them as they currently are (18 ppm) but give them free upgrades like Plague Marines get. That would make them an interesting alternative to Intercessors.
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2022/10/06 14:15:29
Subject: Marine troops, what gives?
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!!Goffik Rocker!!
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They're great at scoring now, especially after aok. 85-100 pts for a 1+ armored unit with decent morale and some shooting to boot. Well worth the points for this specific role. Just don't expect them to be killing anything. It's not that important tho.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/10/06 14:16:44
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2022/10/06 15:47:46
Subject: Re:Marine troops, what gives?
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Fixture of Dakka
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ZergSmasher wrote:Marines troops are overcosted and have been for a while now. I'm hoping whenever the next points update happens we'll end up something like this:
Tactical Squad: 16 ppm
Intercessor Squad: 18 ppm
Assault Intercessor Squad: 17 ppm
Incursor Squad: 20 ppm
Infiltrator Squad: 22 ppm
Heavy Intercessor Squad: 24 ppm
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Let's be honest.
•If your not using these units now, GW shaving 2 pts off isn't going to result in a change on your end.
•And if you are using them? Any such pts reduction is going to have an almost negligible effect.
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2022/10/06 16:07:38
Subject: Re:Marine troops, what gives?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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ccs wrote: ZergSmasher wrote:Marines troops are overcosted and have been for a while now. I'm hoping whenever the next points update happens we'll end up something like this:
Tactical Squad: 16 ppm
Intercessor Squad: 18 ppm
Assault Intercessor Squad: 17 ppm
Incursor Squad: 20 ppm
Infiltrator Squad: 22 ppm
Heavy Intercessor Squad: 24 ppm
.
Let's be honest.
•If your not using these units now, GW shaving 2 pts off isn't going to result in a change on your end.
•And if you are using them? Any such pts reduction is going to have an almost negligible effect.
2 points adds up. If you were running 4 squads, that's 40 points, or almost an Attack Bike.
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2022/10/06 17:12:43
Subject: Re:Marine troops, what gives?
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Lord of the Fleet
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EviscerationPlague wrote:ccs wrote: ZergSmasher wrote:Marines troops are overcosted and have been for a while now. I'm hoping whenever the next points update happens we'll end up something like this:
Tactical Squad: 16 ppm
Intercessor Squad: 18 ppm
Assault Intercessor Squad: 17 ppm
Incursor Squad: 20 ppm
Infiltrator Squad: 22 ppm
Heavy Intercessor Squad: 24 ppm
.
Let's be honest.
•If your not using these units now, GW shaving 2 pts off isn't going to result in a change on your end.
•And if you are using them? Any such pts reduction is going to have an almost negligible effect.
2 points adds up. If you were running 4 squads, that's 40 points, or almost an Attack Bike.
Well when you put it like that...40 points...it's still not a lot.
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2022/10/06 20:56:04
Subject: Marine troops, what gives?
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Kinebrach-Knobbling Xeno Interrogator
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EviscerationPlague wrote: Vilgeir wrote:For my Deathwatch, my entire army is Troops! (But that's cheating).
For my Imperial Fists, I use Infiltrators, Intercessors, and Heavy Intercessors.
I've legit not bothered to look at Deathwatch in a long time. They're a decent Troop, but the issue is they're stuck with a terrible army rule.
All Codex Marines are, so what else is new lol
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2022/10/07 02:43:48
Subject: Marine troops, what gives?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Vilgeir wrote:EviscerationPlague wrote: Vilgeir wrote:For my Deathwatch, my entire army is Troops! (But that's cheating).
For my Imperial Fists, I use Infiltrators, Intercessors, and Heavy Intercessors.
I've legit not bothered to look at Deathwatch in a long time. They're a decent Troop, but the issue is they're stuck with a terrible army rule.
All Codex Marines are, so what else is new lol
A lot of the army rules for Marines aren't thay bad, but Deathwatch are definitely one of the worst for it. Probably to make up for their special troop being somewhat a good choice.
Shame you can't make them a successor LOL
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2022/10/07 16:51:04
Subject: Marine troops, what gives?
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Regular Dakkanaut
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I honestly put the entire struggle for the last two editions with MEQ durability down to the AP system. Two wound Marines, transhuman stratagem, armor of contempt have all been bandaids aimed for the most part squarely at trying to stop Space Marines from evaporating in a single turn when they aren't saving on 3+ against most firepower.
Not to say prior to 8th that they weren't still fragile but they never got this sort of cumulative durability bonuses to try and compensate for it.
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2022/10/09 21:48:49
Subject: Marine troops, what gives?
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Battleship Captain
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Prior to 8th edition it just meant you had huge break points in effectiveness of guns.
AP4 was almost irrelevant, which is why so many things sprouted rending.
Things were even worse with 2+ saves, because few AP3 weapons had good rates of fire meaning krak missiles by the squad-volley would bounce uselessly off a 2+ save.
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Termagants expended for the Hive Mind: ~2835
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2022/10/18 02:26:34
Subject: Marine troops, what gives?
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Mekboy Hammerin' Somethin'
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Madjob wrote:I honestly put the entire struggle for the last two editions with MEQ durability down to the AP system. Two wound Marines, transhuman stratagem, armor of contempt have all been bandaids aimed for the most part squarely at trying to stop Space Marines from evaporating in a single turn when they aren't saving on 3+ against most firepower.
Not to say prior to 8th that they weren't still fragile but they never got this sort of cumulative durability bonuses to try and compensate for it.
Marines in 8th, and now 9th, are significantly more durable than they were in previous editions. This is because while more weapons effect their armor, this is heavily mitigated via various potential armor bonuses such as AoC. Where as, in previous editions, AP3 was plentiful enough that deleting whole junks of marines was trivial to any army that mattered.
The problem with marines is that, as the poster-boy faction, they're also the most prevalent and most balanced against. Even the most fluffy-bunny list maker is going to take marines into account when making their list and ensure they have answers for them, because they're astronomically more likely to face marines than anything else. This leaves marines in an awkward spot where the tools to handle them are either sufficient or insufficient, leaving them as either insanely oppressive or incapable of using their infantry. Where they land on that spectrum is often times directly tied to how recently Marines got their codex, as they always get some kind of aid to help them be more resilient (or cheaper) when it launches, and then other codex' are balanced against them as time goes on.
That's why marine armies are so dramatically different close to codex release and significantly later. Right at codex release they perform well with their recently "fixed" infantry. But as the edition drags on, and more people are given more tools to handle marine infantry, they're increasingly forced to rely on their vehicles to variable effect.
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2022/10/18 08:34:50
Subject: Marine troops, what gives?
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Locked in the Tower of Amareo
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And that's his point. They have been forced to put in AoC etc bandaid to help the durability that's been eroded by AP system.
Remove AoC and transhuman and see are the current marines so tough.
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2024 painted/bought: 109/109 |
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2022/10/18 12:18:12
Subject: Re:Marine troops, what gives?
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Ladies Love the Vibro-Cannon Operator
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ZergSmasher wrote:Marines troops are overcosted and have been for a while now. I'm hoping whenever the next points update happens we'll end up something like this:
Tactical Squad: 16 ppm
Intercessor Squad: 18 ppm
Assault Intercessor Squad: 17 ppm
Incursor Squad: 20 ppm
Infiltrator Squad: 22 ppm
Heavy Intercessor Squad: 24 ppm
Plus whatever costs for upgrades. Or, for tacticals, keep them as they currently are (18 ppm) but give them free upgrades like Plague Marines get. That would make them an interesting alternative to Intercessors.
So we are around 300 pts for 3 tax units in an SM army.
Others have cheaper troop tax like Drukhari but we need to live with it.
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Former moderator 40kOnline
Lanchester's square law - please obey in list building!
Illumini: "And thank you for not finishing your post with a "" I'm sorry, but after 7200 's that has to be the most annoying sign-off ever."
Armies: Eldar, Necrons, Blood Angels, Grey Knights; World Eaters (30k); Bloodbound; Cryx, Circle, Cyriss |
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2022/10/18 14:56:59
Subject: Marine troops, what gives?
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Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle
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Infiltrators at 2 PPM more than Nurglings? Seriously?
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Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! |
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2022/10/18 16:56:29
Subject: Marine troops, what gives?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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I mean, is it too far off? Nurglings as of now are T3 W4 5++ -1 to hit. That's pretty darn survivable. They also have the benefit of being able to be taken in smaller groups instead of 5 at minimum, though they don't fill compulsory slots so eh.
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2022/10/18 17:03:18
Subject: Marine troops, what gives?
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Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle
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EviscerationPlague wrote:
I mean, is it too far off? Nurglings as of now are T3 W4 5++ -1 to hit. That's pretty darn survivable. They also have the benefit of being able to be taken in smaller groups instead of 5 at minimum, though they don't fill compulsory slots so eh.
THey aren't ObSec.
They aren't Core-and in fact, have virtually no buffs available to them.
They don't gave guns.
They don't have OmniScramblers.
They can't benefit from cover.
If you're facing a BS 3+ Plasma Gun, it takes 6.75 shots or 2.7 overcharged shots to kill an Infiltrator out of cover.
Add cover, and that number doubles to 13.5 or 5.4.
Nurglings take 14.4 shots or 7.2 overcharged shots. So they're slightly more durable to Plasma.
But small arms fire? You need to get to AP-2 and the Infiltrator can't be in cover to make the Nurglings more durable.
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Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! |
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2022/10/18 17:12:34
Subject: Marine troops, what gives?
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Mekboy Hammerin' Somethin'
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tneva82 wrote:And that's his point. They have been forced to put in AoC etc bandaid to help the durability that's been eroded by AP system.
Remove AoC and transhuman and see are the current marines so tough.
Yes, but the flip side is if you remove the effective tools to deal with marines then they run around curbstomping everyone.
The issue marines have always suffered from is their prevalence. Marines make up fully half of the armies, so you should always build to handle them. Every army has tools to deal with everything (hordes, vehicles, elite infantry, light vehicles, ect), but marines are so incredibly common that all lists are taken to be able to handle them.
Continuing to buff marines, or nerf what kills them, is a never ending treadmill.
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2022/10/18 17:47:13
Subject: Marine troops, what gives?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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JNAProductions wrote:EviscerationPlague wrote:
I mean, is it too far off? Nurglings as of now are T3 W4 5++ -1 to hit. That's pretty darn survivable. They also have the benefit of being able to be taken in smaller groups instead of 5 at minimum, though they don't fill compulsory slots so eh.
THey aren't ObSec.
They aren't Core-and in fact, have virtually no buffs available to them.
They don't gave guns.
They don't have OmniScramblers.
They can't benefit from cover.
If you're facing a BS 3+ Plasma Gun, it takes 6.75 shots or 2.7 overcharged shots to kill an Infiltrator out of cover.
Add cover, and that number doubles to 13.5 or 5.4.
Nurglings take 14.4 shots or 7.2 overcharged shots. So they're slightly more durable to Plasma.
But small arms fire? You need to get to AP-2 and the Infiltrator can't be in cover to make the Nurglings more durable.
1. Why does CORE matter when Infiltrators don't have a lot to gain from it? I'm not using my Captain to reroll their shooting at all.
2. Speaking of guns, they're 24 points for a Bolter. It doesn't matter if it has a special rule: it's still 24 points for a Bolter.
3. Omniscramblers is a fair point
4. Nurglings don't need to benefit from cover as they're already a natural -1 to hit.
Also the ability to spam D2 and/or AP-2+ is precisely why Nurglings are tougher. Cool, Nurglings get hurt by those Bolters that Infiltrators are carrying LOL
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2022/10/18 18:23:45
Subject: Marine troops, what gives?
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Veteran Wolf Guard Squad Leader
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Yeah, infiltrators guns are awful. I feel that all bolters should be at least -1 ap base, except for maybe auto-bolter rifles. Not that it would matter much with Armour of contempt.
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Wolfspear's 2k
Harlequins 2k
Chaos Knights 2k
Spiderfangs 2k
Ossiarch Bonereapers 1k |
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2022/10/18 18:59:54
Subject: Marine troops, what gives?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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jaredb wrote:Yeah, infiltrators guns are awful. I feel that all bolters should be at least -1 ap base, except for maybe auto-bolter rifles. Not that it would matter much with Armour of contempt.
AoC was a bad idea to be fair
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2022/10/18 19:08:33
Subject: Marine troops, what gives?
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Liche Priest Hierophant
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Well the rapid fire weapons can have +1 ap in turn 2, perhaps 3. So if you have ap 1 you can build on that. Same with the ap on the chainsword if they ever make it to the assault doctrine.
I am not shure I agree with everything you say morganfreeman but you touch on an excelent point on not relying on space marine power armour. If I have a lot of space marines in my list and I run into some good D2 shooting or melee I am in big big trouble. (Out of all things Ork Flashgitz in a vehicle is just a castle I have to stay out of line of sight for. The same with blight drones with flesh mawers. They just tear through them.) Therefore I often look to not have to many power armour units in my list. (One of the reasons I do not like long fangs these days.)
That means we are looking for terminators, vehicles or dreadnoughts etc. Dreadnoughts in particular are good since the D2 that is good VS power armour is bad VS - 1 damage.
I have been experimenting with heavy interacessors. T5, 3 wounds and the various stratagems make them hard to deal with. Unyealding in the face of the foe turns them into Terminators VS Goff Ork boys who usually just wipe out interacessors. And they can stil be transhumaned.
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2022/10/18 21:05:44
Subject: Marine troops, what gives?
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The Marine Standing Behind Marneus Calgar
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I like infiltrators.
If you just want firepower, there are better choices for your points. Although the auto-wound on 6’s is nice, especially if you can get re-rolls on them. This lets you plink wounds off things you might not normally be able to, from a units that’s primary job is hunkering down on objectives. I might be a little biased as an Ultramarine, as we have a strat that can give them full to-hit re-rolls.
The combo of infiltrate and omni scrambles gives them some very nice screening potential.
ObSec and the medic make them good for camping objectives. Sure, in today’s high lethality world anyone who wants them gone can make them go away, but they have to work a little harder. And the fire it takes to remove them might have been pointed somewhere else.
They might not be the min/max spam unit, but are a decent toolbox that expands the options you have.
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2022/10/19 08:21:15
Subject: Marine troops, what gives?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Incursors are my go-to for SM troops. Being able to get onto midfield objective early is key and they are often capable of dealing with opposing infiltrating troops to hold those objectives.
None of the SM options are good, but they're probably the best overall.
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