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I'm trying to resolve in my head the new story of the Leagues of Votann with the old story of the Squats. For the latter, most of the story comes from White Dwarf #111 which was the closest thing to a codex the Squats ever had. Unfortunately, I don’t have the new codex in front of me so some of you might need to fill in the blanks.

They sell a t-shirt with that old "codex" on it


Anyways, here are a bunch of questions...

From memory and the teasers from warhammer-community, the Kin are cloned. Does the codex say that all Kin are clones? Or that populations might be generated via the cloneskeins and after that they might be set loose and live and reproduce biologically. Is that mentioned or alluded to at all? The website mentions that it is a First Truth that they are a cloned people. Do they die out if there are no cloning facilities available?

And I do remember there are the Necromunda Squats, so are these an example of Kin that are no longer cloned or that don't have a Votann? Is there much more story for these Necromunda guys?

Is it possible there are many more isolated or "feudal" Kin worlds that might live without cloning, Votann, or other superior technology? Could these types of worlds be the ones that White Dwarf #111 described?

If there are these kinds of worlds, what do the Kin with cloning and Votann think when they encounter them? Do they wipe them out? Integrate them?

Looking at the old lore - Is the retcon that the old stuff is all invalid, or just that no one mentioned the Votann and cloning previously? Is that old Squat stuff just a bunch of Kin that played nice with Imperium?

Something from White Dwarf 111 regarding first encounters with the Squats.. seems pretty valid still?

This is a fun one, I'd like to think this is still canon:

Does the codex say that all Kin are clones?

yes, but not in the traditional sense.

they are not carbon copies of one or a small number of "template" Kin, like the Clone Army of star wars, but something closer to "designer babies", taking elements form a bank of famous kin, and combining them to create new kin that naturally excel at a given duty (for example, a mix of g-tolerance, spatial awareness and good reflexes for a pilot). Hence, they are physically and genetically diverse, which partly explains how the admech haven't clocked onto thier heratek.

they dont explictly mention if the Squats of necromunda are clones, working under a voltann, but they do say they are effectively a isolated offshoot of the race and have been isolated form the leagues of the core for at least 10,000 years.

Is it possible there are many more isolated or "feudal" Kin worlds that might live without cloning, Votann, or other superior technology? Could these types of worlds be the ones that White Dwarf #111 described?

If there are these kinds of worlds, what do the Kin with cloning and Votann think when they encounter them? Do they wipe them out? Integrate them?

Looking at the old lore - Is the retcon that the old stuff is all invalid, or just that no one mentioned the Votann and cloning previously? Is that old Squat stuff just a bunch of Kin that played nice with Imperium?

form what i can tell, the old stuff is basically retconned. the Leagues are the squats, and old lore is, at best, the imperiums limited and flawed understanding of the race.

Something from White Dwarf 111 regarding first encounters with the Squats.. seems pretty valid still?

somewhat invalidated, as the squats are being integrated into the tail end of the heresy, and are encounted throughout imperial history (even if not always properly recognised as being the same race under different names, as they are often mistaken for a new, unkown minor xenos race as opposed to a demi-human.

Does anyone know if they reproduce naturally as well, or are they forbidden/incapable of doing so?

 Hellebore wrote:
Does anyone know if they reproduce naturally as well, or are they forbidden/incapable of doing so?

It is not explicitly mentioned either way but I am going to assume that they can as it is stated in other places that the necromunda Squats are an offshoot group. Within the leagues I am going to assume that it is much like the Tau that it highly discouraged/illegal to have children outside of the approved methods.

I’d urge caution on the assumption that Necromundan Squats seemingly being able to have babies the old fashioned way, therefore so can the Votann.

Now to be fair, I’m not currently aware of anything to contradict your assumption. But, do keep in mind the Squats of Necromunda have been essentially isolated for 10,000 years.

That’s plenty enough time for the Votann to have fully embraced cloning - or even for their cloning to have gone down the SG-1 Asgardian route, where copies of copies of copies caused genetic drift which claimed their baby making abilities.

Yes I’m aware Votann aren’t straight up clones, rather being composite creations, but all made from stock DNA.

I haven't read the new Necromunda Squats lore as I don't play the game but perhaps they brought cloning tech with them? Pods to birth out squats could be transortable in a small vehicle for all we know and if it were the only way they reproduce as a race it would obviously be a top priority for them to protect and maintain over the millenia.

They do have a stronghold on Necromunda so it's entirely reasonable to think they still do cloning.
As for the regular Leagues, if your thousands of years old civilisation doesn't need to reproduce and hasn't done so since it's inception, there would be no cultural inclination to do so. They didn't advance into a cloned race, they always were so the concept of reproduction outside of the Clone Skeins is probably absent from their society.

On the other hand - why would they damage working organ that might come in handy later? They are supposed to be good engineers, what sane engineer would remove a backup system/failsafe just because it's not needed when something works normally? Such engineer would suck at their job, and isn't incompetence one of biggest crimes in Votann culture?

People here seem to confuse comfort with need - one simple reason to not do natural pregnancies is that they suck. You have a woman out of workforce for pretty much year+, which would be a big no no for society with limited numbers. That is, however, like thinking modern humans can't walk because people in USA drive everywhere. Can't and won't are two different things, and it's equally possible that when Votann need to replenish their numbers quickly, say after lost battle, or after colony expansion, natural breeding provides extra emergency capacity to existing infrastructure, even though 'natural' would still mean carefully screened and edited for them.

xerxeskingofking wrote:
old lore is, at best, the imperiums limited and flawed understanding of the race.

I kinda like this idea. Since GW used the old lore to inspire the new Leagues, there are of course similarities. Any retcons or discrepancies could be chalked up to the Imperium not getting the details correct and the Squats not revealing everything. The Imperium finds these abhumans... the abhumans have technology and want to trade and fight common enemies etc. The new codex has that one picture of a Kin in old school Squat garb... who knows, maybe GW will elaborate more in the future? Might be a good story where different Imperial factions argue if the Kin are xenos or abhumans, betray trust, invoke grudges, etc.

 Gert wrote:
if your thousands of years old civilisation doesn't need to reproduce and hasn't done so since it's inception, there would be no cultural inclination to do so.

Does the codex say if the Kin come out of cloning as adults? Do the Kin raise children? Do they value rearing young and family?

It could be that as a consequence of genetic manipulation or cloning that there is no biological desire to make babies, or that pregnancy is rare. I could see that they could revere pregnancy and natural birth as something rare and magical... but in a grimdark universe I could also see the possibility that they revile it too.

 Irbis wrote:
On the other hand - why would they damage working organ that might come in handy later? They are supposed to be good engineers, what sane engineer would remove a backup system/failsafe just because it's not needed when something works normally? Such engineer would suck at their job, and isn't incompetence one of biggest crimes in Votann culture?

People here seem to confuse comfort with need - one simple reason to not do natural pregnancies is that they suck. You have a woman out of workforce for pretty much year+, which would be a big no no for society with limited numbers. That is, however, like thinking modern humans can't walk because people in USA drive everywhere. Can't and won't are two different things, and it's equally possible that when Votann need to replenish their numbers quickly, say after lost battle, or after colony expansion, natural breeding provides extra emergency capacity to existing infrastructure, even though 'natural' would still mean carefully screened and edited for them.

Yeah, I can see this for sure. I forget if it was a somewhere I read or a podcast that said the Kin were like an ancient machine or process for resource collection that have lost their origins and purpose. So with that, they're still run by an AI system that with machine-like logic would want to have backups and failsafes, like you described. Isolated groups of Kin could operate and reproduce far from cloning facilities or the Votann in a self sufficient manner. Their built-in innate stoicism and greed driving them towards protecting their own and gathering resources. (This is the logic make me I think there could be "feudal" Kin worlds)

The old lore was that male Squats could be long lived. They could have several children before joining the military brotherhoods and fulfilling obligations to serve. From the old White Dwarf:

Each Squat has an obligation of military service to his stronghold, and can be called to serve for a period of 30-70 years in the Brotherhood. However, because Squats live long and breed slowly, a tradition requires that a Squat may not be called to the Brotherhood until he has sired and raised two sons to maturity, which in Squat terms is the age of 70 Terran Standard years. Thus, the continuity of the race is not threatened by its military activities.

If the Kin can birth and raise children, maybe their possible long lives help them balance that with other obligations?

I'm fairly sure one of the Loremaster videos (or somewhere) mentioned there are cloning guilds, so it doesn't sound like the cloning thing is entirely dependent on the Votann doing it. The Necromunda Squats could have taken the cloning tech with them, but then again I think the codex mentioned some Squats/Kin settle other worlds and even on Imperial planets sometimes, and presumably they wouldn't be taking the tech with them all the time.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I’d urge caution on the assumption that Necromundan Squats seemingly being able to have babies the old fashioned way, therefore so can the Votann.

Now to be fair, I’m not currently aware of anything to contradict your assumption. But, do keep in mind the Squats of Necromunda have been essentially isolated for 10,000 years.

That’s plenty enough time for the Votann to have fully embraced cloning - or even for their cloning to have gone down the SG-1 Asgardian route, where copies of copies of copies caused genetic drift which claimed their baby making abilities.

Yes I’m aware Votann aren’t straight up clones, rather being composite creations, but all made from stock DNA.

The Leagues have been a clone race from the start, though - at least since they arrived in the galactic core - it's not something that happened after the Necromunda Squats settled.

Why would a clone race even have genitals. They have a single hole for waste removal that's it. Think chickens without the eggs.

Boosykes wrote:
Why would a clone race even have genitals. They have a single hole for waste removal that's it. Think chickens without the eggs.

Yes but then you're getting into the sticky questions around gender presentation and secondary sexual characteristics.

There are feminine and masculine heads on the sprues, but if they're all sexless clones, there would be no reason to have any physical variety. From a practical perspective they'd all look somewhat androgenous as sexless clones.

But we still get what appear to be feminine heads and the berserk bodies they've been put on have breastplates while the masculine heads are bare-chested.

Boosykes wrote:
Why would a clone race even have genitals. They have a single hole for waste removal that's it. Think chickens without the eggs.

Because the bits and bobs are useful for hormonal balance. Ask any pre-menopausal woman that’s had a hysterectomy, or a bloke who’s lost his goolies.

Not needing them for reproduction doesn’t equate to not needing them. Plus, it’s a genetic engineering job that’s….largely pointless. You gain nothing by removing them, so why bother?

I guess on that thought, why even have male/female Kin? Starting to be a bit like the question about why are there no female space marines. In this case, the presence of male/female might be an artifact and/or point to biological reproduction being a backup. Ex - A crashed Kin ship could establish a colony if no cloning facilities were available. Goes back to my thought that maybe there are feudal or less developed Kin and that might kinda explain the old Squats.

Even for relationships, I just wonder how they would be tight knit and familial without brothers/sisters/mothers/fathers. It doesnt seem very dwarf like to not have family ties like that. I guess we wont know more until more is published, either some fiction or another codex.

Anyways, moving back to differences and retcons... from White Dwarf 111:

In the Age of Rediscovery, the Squat Home Worlds have undertaken to provide the Imperium with a tithe, which takes the form of Brotherhoods being sent to serve with the Imperial Guard, or indeed as complete Squat forces under the Imperial banner. Space Marines are noted for their intolerance to Abhuman races, whom they see as tainted and genetically impure, and the Administratum will not generally post Squat troops to areas where they will be in close contact with Marines.

It seems that the old Squats were very much just an abhuman faction of the Imperium, whereas I just cant see the new Kin doing things like paying tithes or serving under the Imperial banner... unless there is some sort of trade, mercenary, or life oath/allegiance situation going on.

Does the codex go into much about the relationship with Imperials or Marines? Any stories about Marines that might tolerate or not tolerate abhumans/xenos?



Automatically Appended Next Post:
For the Necromunda Squats, there is a blurb on the Warhammer 40K lexicanum:

https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Ironhead_Squat_Prospector

Reading that and another thread on Reddit it sounds like they have tech similar to the Imperium and do have a Votann, though no confirmation about cloning. Not sure if the actual book 'Necromunda: Book of the Outlands' might elaborate.

gravitywell wrote:
I Goes back to my thought that maybe there are feudal or less developed Kin and that might kinda explain the old Squats.

Anyways, moving back to differences and retcons... from White Dwarf 111:

In the Age of Rediscovery, the Squat Home Worlds have undertaken to provide the Imperium with a tithe, which takes the form of Brotherhoods being sent to serve with the Imperial Guard, or indeed as complete Squat forces under the Imperial banner. Space Marines are noted for their intolerance to Abhuman races, whom they see as tainted and genetically impure, and the Administratum will not generally post Squat troops to areas where they will be in close contact with Marines.

It seems that the old Squats were very much just an abhuman faction of the Imperium, whereas I just cant see the new Kin doing things like paying tithes or serving under the Imperial banner... unless there is some sort of trade, mercenary, or life oath/allegiance situation going on.

Does the codex go into much about the relationship with Imperials or Marines? Any stories about Marines that might tolerate or not tolerate abhumans/xenos?

The old depicition of the squats don't exist anymore and never did as they were before, the Leagues as they are now ARE the old Squats. They've been replaced.

The Leagues frequently trade and operate as mercenaries, including with the Imperium.

gravitywell wrote:
I guess on that thought, why even have male/female Kin? Starting to be a bit like the question about why are there no female space marines. In this case, the presence of male/female might be an artifact and/or point to biological reproduction being a backup. Ex - A crashed Kin ship could establish a colony if no cloning facilities were available. Goes back to my thought that maybe there are feudal or less developed Kin and that might kinda explain the old Squats.

Even for relationships, I just wonder how they would be tight knit and familial without brothers/sisters/mothers/fathers. It doesnt seem very dwarf like to not have family ties like that. I guess we wont know more until more is published, either some fiction or another codex.

Anyways, moving back to differences and retcons... from White Dwarf 111:

In the Age of Rediscovery, the Squat Home Worlds have undertaken to provide the Imperium with a tithe, which takes the form of Brotherhoods being sent to serve with the Imperial Guard, or indeed as complete Squat forces under the Imperial banner. Space Marines are noted for their intolerance to Abhuman races, whom they see as tainted and genetically impure, and the Administratum will not generally post Squat troops to areas where they will be in close contact with Marines.

It seems that the old Squats were very much just an abhuman faction of the Imperium, whereas I just cant see the new Kin doing things like paying tithes or serving under the Imperial banner... unless there is some sort of trade, mercenary, or life oath/allegiance situation going on.

Does the codex go into much about the relationship with Imperials or Marines? Any stories about Marines that might tolerate or not tolerate abhumans/xenos?



Automatically Appended Next Post:
For the Necromunda Squats, there is a blurb on the Warhammer 40K lexicanum:

https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Ironhead_Squat_Prospector

Reading that and another thread on Reddit it sounds like they have tech similar to the Imperium and do have a Votann, though no confirmation about cloning. Not sure if the actual book 'Necromunda: Book of the Outlands' might elaborate.

It was said in the codex that they view family much like the Tau do. The view their work group as their family more than anything else.

As for the differences between the old and new lore there is one small connection mentioned in the codex. There is a small part about the Emberg-Aegnir Bloc, a small league that was destroyed to the last by Hive Fleet Leviathan to protect their Votann (that is now extra insane). It is likely that this is the Squats from old that we know. The fact that they looked so different could be explained with them being a more "feral" league then the others and their small size could be used to explain why they played ball with the imperium like they did. These are just my guesses though.

Their relationship with the imperium is complicated. They know they are descendants of humanity but like to keep the imperium at arm's reach as it could give the imperium greater claim over them. It is also said that the more intolerant marines and inquisitors are quick to label them as xenos and attack. With the mechanicus they avoid when possible and destroy when they cannot.

Nah, I think you're right, I think that old stuff is all retconned. It might be possible they might try to explain old stuff or reference it... but probably not much. I think some old artwork has come up in warhammer-community articles, so there might be some effort there to say the old stuff is now part of the new. There is the artwork in the release showing old school armor (bottom left).



Maybe they'll do something like take that Leman Russ quote and spin it into a story or something like that. My theory around feral or less advanced Squats explaining the old story is a bit of stretch based on the gap of knowledge we have about Kin cloning/reproduction. We'll see what they do. White Dwarf #111 has the Squats alongside Imperial Guard who are fielding a Beastmen Assault Platoon and Human bombs.... sometimes that old stuff is just dead and gone! I do think its interesting to look at what the old Squat story was and see what is the same or what has changed.

Basically, all the instances of Squats or Stuff-That-Might-Be-Squats before the reintroduction of the Leagues have been turned into various Leagues or groups of Kin.
The idea that the entire Squat race was devoured by the Tyranids has been reworked into that Imperial-aligned League. Likewise, the Demiurg that were allied with the T'au are also another League with specific Cloneskeins that made them look more alien than their kin and as such it also allowed this group to protect the continued existence of the other Leagues by claiming to be a Xenos race.

The relationship with the Mechanicus has definitely been changed...

Even today, expeditions are mounted from the Squat Home Worlds in search of lost strongholds, and these expeditions are often accompanied by Adeptus Mechanicus personnel, eager to discover lost Squat technology.

the Adeptus Mechanicus is fascinated by the apparently natural technical expertise of the Squats and the Techpriest is present as an observer to learn more about Squat skills on behalf of the Imperium.

Individual Squat Engineers with impressive reputations may be directly recruited by the Imperium, and some have been known to reach senior positions within the Adeptus Mechanicus.

Considering that they now likely have men of stone and very likely have men of iron as part of their civilization now that is a given.

I'm not a fan of the Votaan, but I do appreciate that they went dang near all the way in making them not-Squats.

The look, fluff, etc., that GW has given us is different in so many ways, that it seems fair to keep them almost entirely separate. Humanoids that probably have a similar antecedent, but have evolved in vastly different directions with different results. There really is no need to try and work the Votaan cloning, supercomputers or other nonsense into the Squat history. Votaan is Votaan and Squats is Squats.

So don't bother trying to retcon or reconcile them. Far easier, more coherent, and more sensible to just let them be very distant and very divergent branches of the same very-old tree.

 KingGarland wrote:
Considering that they now likely have men of stone and very likely have men of iron as part of their civilization now that is a given.

Speculation is that the Kin themselves are the Men of Stone.
An artificially created race (which the Kin are via Cloning) that was created to explore deep space (the Galactic Core and Eastern Fringe are pretty deep), were known to be great builders and were responsible for creating the Men of Iron (the Leagues build big and have A.I. constructs fully integrated into their society), and they had a natural resistance to the Warp (the Cloneskeins of the Votann barely register in the Warp and the species has no real Psykers as even psychic Cloneskeins barely reach even the lower power levels of other races).

I mean they have done a reasonable job of reconciling the previous iterations and the newer lore in the Votann codex. The Leagues are fairly disparate and some are on good terms with the Imperium and some aren't. But basically, that was a small portion of the Leagues and not the whole which we see in more detail now. The old Squats haven't been replaced they were just a smaller part of an unseen larger whole. The point of them being "Leagues of Votann" is that some are quite different. It's up to you when modelling your army how much you want to convert them to suit that.

The trouble with picking bits up online and from Lexicanum is that they are either repetitions of the same few pieces or taken out of context.

The main "retcons" are down to how the current 40k lore stands.

The relationship with the Mechanicus has definitely been changed...

Since you bring this up, surely this is fairly straightforward. The Adeptus Mechanicus is now a playable faction, which it wasn't for a long time. You need to create conflict between the two because it is a tabletop wargame. Same as with the Imperium.

On the reproduction side of things I'd agree with the idea that they can reproduce naturally. Clone tech might be the most efficient way but leaving it as the only way they can reproduce would leave them very dependent on access to be specific tech. Having the redundancy of reproductive organs as back would be prudent design, which is evident elsewhere with their shielded souls etc.

I think the lore is great - it connects with the older lore and leaves plenty of room for your own interpretation. They seem to have quite varied cultures within and across the leagues.
Hopefully they will add more lore through narrative campaign books and BL novels soon.

Their souls aren't shielded though, they just don't have "normal" ones. They're naturally weaker, likely as a result of them being artifical lifeforms (Artificial in the sense that they are made via technology and not through natural reproductive means).

gravitywell wrote:
Nah, I think you're right, I think that old stuff is all retconned. It might be possible they might try to explain old stuff or reference it... but probably not much. I think some old artwork has come up in warhammer-community articles, so there might be some effort there to say the old stuff is now part of the new. There is the artwork in the release showing old school armor (bottom left).

That artwork of an older-stype Squat/Kin i'd presume is their mercenary gear, based on Grendl Grenlsen and the old Squats box being called "Space Dwarf Mercenaries".

 Gert wrote:
Basically, all the instances of Squats or Stuff-That-Might-Be-Squats before the reintroduction of the Leagues have been turned into various Leagues or groups of Kin.
The idea that the entire Squat race was devoured by the Tyranids has been reworked into that Imperial-aligned League. Likewise, the Demiurg that were allied with the T'au are also another League with specific Cloneskeins that made them look more alien than their kin and as such it also allowed this group to protect the continued existence of the other Leagues by claiming to be a Xenos race.

Maybe I've just missed something as I've not got the codex myself, but those don't sound quite right from what I've seen? Tthe Emberg-Aegnir Bloc that got wiped out by the Tyranids wasn't what the "The Tyranids Ate the Squats" became, instead that was changed into the Leagues overall having so much trouble with the Tyranids that a rumour started spreading about them all being wiped out, which the Imperium obviously didn't verify before accepting it as fact. I've not read anything say the Demiurg situation was caused by a specific cloneskein either, and the Seran-Tok Mercantile Leagues has interacted to the Tau often but I don't think it was just that particular league that became known as the Demiurg. It's just one of the many names they've used.

 Olthannon wrote:
The Adeptus Mechanicus is now a playable faction, which it wasn't for a long time. You need to create conflict between the two because it is a tabletop wargame. Same as with the Imperium.

I never thought of that. Cant have them seem like besties if they’re going to be fielding armies against each other.

Somewhat related on Squats/Mechanicus... I don't have the book "Realms of Chaos: The Lost and the Damned" from 1988, but the wh40k lexicanum has:

Chaos Squats often serve as the armorers and artificers of Chaos armies, using their technical abilities to construct Daemon Engines. It is thought that Chaos Squats are responsible for the maintenance of Chaos Titans as well.

https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Chaos_Squat

It's interesting how much they had worked out since that book was published a year before White Dwarf #111. I think that's gotta be retconned with the story of the Mechanicus being better fleshed out.

Anyways, there is the precedent for chaos squats, but with the kin it feels like a blank slate now.

 Gert wrote:
Their souls aren't shielded though, they just don't have "normal" ones. They're naturally weaker, likely as a result of them being artifical lifeforms (Artificial in the sense that they are made via technology and not through natural reproductive means).

Is that described any more? It seems like it would be a plus with regards to chaos, but there has got to be a downside as well. This seems like something that will get developed more.

 silverstu wrote:

Hopefully they will add more lore through narrative campaign books and BL novels soon.

I've read some people online saying the new Kin are not very grimdark for the 40k universe... but this seems like just a starting point with lots of great directions they could go. I think we'll get a lot more interesting stuff. Honestly the old Squat lore, other than chaos corruption, was pretty clean.

gravitywell wrote:

I've read some people online saying the new Kin are not very grimdark for the 40k universe... but this seems like just a starting point with lots of great directions they could go. I think we'll get a lot more interesting stuff. Honestly the old Squat lore, other than chaos corruption, was pretty clean.

There's a case that could be made that Squats were the real good-guys of Rogue Trader. Things were simpler, so there wasn't as much to compare too, but they were the cleanest of the factions at the time. Even among the other good-ish guys, they didn't have the fall of the eldar, or the iron fist of the imperium, etc... The worst that could be said about them was that they would hold a grudge forever.

I'm not a fan of Votann, but there's nothing wrong with having a faction that is a bit of a foil to the rest of the factions' grimdark-ness. IIRC, Tau was that at first before they grimed them up a bit.