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This isn't a thread about why GW shut down WHFB. It's a thread for trying to figure out why so many people abandoned the game within a few years of the 8th edition release (2010). In the local area, we used to have quite a lot of people playing. The scene dried up way before End Times.
I remember going to an 'Ard Boyz. The only other guy who showed up was the local cheater. He said he would beat me. I offered to play him anyway. He refused. We then rolled for the prizes and he won with his (possibly loaded) dice. I drove to the other store in the area, which only had one or two guys who'd shown up for the competition. Lost to Dwarfs.
Compared to mid 7th edition where there were a good 12 people at the local tournament. I remember seeing the shiny new high elf plastic dragon. One of my friends bought the new plastic stegadon for the tournament. (He *still* hasn't painted the blasted dinosaur.) Good memories of my orcs bashing marauders of chaos and my solitary 40 pt troll swallowing a lone vampire.
The decline wasn't just in my area. Here's Hoodling's Hole review of Storm of Magic:
Spoiler:
The release of Storm of Magic has been something of a strange thing. In the past when an expansion to Warhammer was released, most of us would have jumped at it and then made our own assessments once we got our hands on it. However, this time it has been different. The expansion has come at a time when most of the community (locally, at least) is bitter and angry at Games Workshop for their heavy-handed attempts to curb the influence of overseas internet sellers, and when the rather botched release of Finecast and the associated price rises have been viewed with scepticism at best. Basically, GW have not made many friends recently.
In addition to this, parts of the community are still making up their minds about Warhammer 8th edition, and whether they like the game or not. To say this has been a drawn-out process is an understatement (the edition could be a quarter of the way through its life-cycle already; how time flies!).
...
Unfortunately, they may have missed their mark. It would seem most players have in fact not been waiting for these things. It was nearly 2 months since Storm of Magic had been released, and I still had not seen a copy outside of a store yet. In fact, nobody I knew had bought it. Eventually an executive decision was made and the club bought a copy out of its (rather limited, rarely used) coffers. At least then we could make a decision for ourselves. Having read through it, I thought I would share what I have found.
So why did so much of the playerbase lose interest? Was it the rules? Anger at GW? The expense of buying so many models? Something else?
I played a couple of games of 8th. The mechanics were what drove me off, and that was before the Army Books cemented the deal. I went back to playing 6th.
Moving your massive block of wound counters directly towards the opposing massive block of wound counters until one or other is either nuked by a mega spell, or loses combat due to their opponent's magic banner and runs away, isn't very compelling gameplay.
here most people already stopped playing late 7th, especially after the Deamon book things declined and comps could only compensate a little (this was the time of "we don't need a FAQ/Errata because we don't make mistakes" GW)
with 8th, a lot of people took the chance to leave, they were already off before it and as there was no real improvement in balance (as there was no real update to the army books from GW just the "wait for the new one") they took the chance before they invested any money
another reason was that there were people who never liked the comp systems used in 7th and upgrades/buff made to old armies (that were hard fought to get accepted in the first place) were gone again as those did not accept them to be carried over
Rules changes by the community for Beastmen or Bretonnia to make them ok-ish for 7th, removed so they were literally unplayable
Then there was a part of the community who really liked the changes, and favoured games that made use of those.
Hence there was in increase in points for standard games to have enough room to get the strong heroes and large units in and arguing heavily against any community FAQ/Errata
Overall, many small little things combined, with an important factor that it already started end of 7th and the new Edition could not convince people that it will be in improvement but made sure that the downward spiral started in 7th continued
Harry, bring this ring to Narnia or the Sith will take the Enterprise
I started with 5th, played a lot of 6th, a little of 7th, and I don't think I played any of 8th.
Part of it had to do with the stage of life I was at. Married with two young kids meant that I didn't have much time/money to invest in ANOTHER edition of the game I'd been playing for 10+ years and had purchased rules for 3x at that point.
Specific to 8th edition, I didn't like random charge distances, and I HATED how big everything was getting. The large "miniatures" were WAY bigger than when I started due to the advances in plastic technology/usage. The unit sizes went crazy so that you needed to have 40 models for just ONE unit.
8th was plenty of fun. The tournament scene around here showed no sign of abandonment, so for middle Sweden the answer is that people did not stop playing 8th. Most moved onto 9th Age following the End Times, but there is still an 8th community in the capital.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/11/01 03:43:51
n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.
It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion.
Endtimes alienated a lot of players, which cut down on the number of people who were really devoted to the game. and the lack of further support saw a lot of those less devoted to the game moving on to other games. i know Kings of War got a huge insurge of players after GW shuttered WHFB. lot of people playing it today with their old WHFB armies too.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/03/05 02:01:20
2023/03/06 21:51:20
Subject: Re:Why did people stop playing 8th Edition?
Both increasing unit size and how much the sets cost was always going to dry up new interest.
There was no gateway into the game, you need 1000's of points just to start (and it didn't help they killed off the gateway specialist games)
End Times was a joke and ran rough shod through pretty much everything that went before and most of the story was horribly contrived. That whole fiasco just needs to be purged as a bad memory!
Rather than the smaller scale writing of the past it all went into epic epicness which started destroying the feel of the world.
Getting more 'high fantasy' models that again moved it away from the grittiness of the past.
GW targeting a different demographic.
Bloat and imbalance (either designers didn't care or had no time to care)
Losing well thought of game designers (Andy Chambers, Rick Priestley etc - not to say they didn't occasionally have stinkers, but they did care about the quality they put out and tried to learn)
Also some external factors:-
People getting much more use to things instantly, reading a book and planning for hours was becoming less of a thing (again especially for the target demography of lots of money, little time, churn and burn thinking). Warhammer needed time to really appreciate.
"Because while the truncheon may be used in lieu of conversation, words will always retain their power. Words offer the means to meaning, and for those who will listen, the enunciation of truth. And the truth is, there is something terribly wrong with this country, isn't there? Cruelty and injustice, intolerance and oppression. And where once you had the freedom to object, to think and speak as you saw fit, you now have censors and systems of surveillance coercing your conformity and soliciting your submission. How did this happen? Who's to blame? Well certainly there are those more responsible than others, and they will be held accountable, but again truth be told, if you're looking for the guilty, you need only look into a mirror. " - V
I've just supported the Permanent European Union Citizenship initiative. Please do the same and spread the word!
"It's not a problem if you don't look up." - Dakka's approach to politics
and then after all of that, GW withdrawing all the model support, no new books, and a million different fan groups promising to rewrite the game into a 9th edition.
2023/03/06 22:50:09
Subject: Re:Why did people stop playing 8th Edition?
Both increasing unit size and how much the sets cost was always going to dry up new interest.
This was a huge thing. Warhammer was always a ranks and flanks game, but new rules basically made giant units unflankable, which meant that many games became contests between two 50+ model units. Which, if they were skavenslaves would be pricey, but if they were phoenix guard or greatswords started to make your eyes water.
Getting more 'high fantasy' models that again moved it away from the grittiness of the past.
This hit me hard. Not sure if we're representative, but the ultra high fantasy of AOS is a pretty smooth transition from the 8th edition models.
2023/03/07 02:47:05
Subject: Re:Why did people stop playing 8th Edition?
Both increasing unit size and how much the sets cost was always going to dry up new interest.
This was a huge thing. Warhammer was always a ranks and flanks game, but new rules basically made giant units unflankable, which meant that many games became contests between two 50+ model units. Which, if they were skavenslaves would be pricey, but if they were phoenix guard or greatswords started to make your eyes water.
Getting more 'high fantasy' models that again moved it away from the grittiness of the past.
This hit me hard. Not sure if we're representative, but the ultra high fantasy of AOS is a pretty smooth transition from the 8th edition models.
Agreed. Another contributing factor to me walking away during 8th to go back to 6th.
Needing 200 models for a skirmish game ended it for me. Price, treshhold, set up of a given game. It was a whole day affair. I didnt want to build an entire sunday around a game. I want to do it in half a day.
This came on top of a lot of goodwill robberies like selling 16 models in a box when 20 was the 'minimum' to play the unit and stuff like that. And then unit fillers got banned at least semi officially.
At the end the game did the unforgivable in 8th. It got boring. You put up a 50 man strong unit. Stormvermin. Spearmen. Marauders. You name it. Only for it to be destroyed by a random spell. Very anticlimatic after spending months painting the superunit, setting it up etc.
Let the galaxy burn.
2023/03/27 06:19:44
Subject: Re:Why did people stop playing 8th Edition?
The one single reason I never played 8th (outside of the school club I run when kids asked me to -maybe twice) was random charge ranges. I liked some of the changes from 7th to 8th, some were questionable for me, but this single one was an immediate dealbreaker.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/03/27 06:21:01
In 6th, the average regiment box was for about 20 models, and you only needed 4 model files in order to get a rank bonus. Thus, a box got you an effective +3 rank bonus, and an extra four models to boot, meaning it was a standalone unit.
Come 7th-8th, you now need 5 files for a rank bonus, and many regiments gradually moved to being sold as 10 models, so you now need two boxes to field a basic unit. Combine with 8th adding hordes, and you now need a minimum of 4 boxes to have a single horde...
Contrast this with a Tactical Marine box coming with 10 models, letting you field two 5-man squads and fulfilling your basic Troops Choices, and this changes how you perceive cost of entry.
Combine with other changes, such as breaking how Bound Spells work, Mysterious Terrain, and most the armybooks summing up to "copypaste jobs" from 7th plus the big monster of the day (for example, Orcs&Goblins didn't get any new units besides the Arachnarok), plus reducing the number of unique magic items per armybook drastically for the sake of a larger list of core items, and it also left a lot of veterans soured. (I, as a budding Empire player, lamented the loss of Aldred's Casket of Sorcery).
Because the thread starts with an assumption people are tempted to answer with 'because'.
8th is still played, and those who affirm its death do so in favour of other systems that have the same or more problems.
6th was moved on from for a reason.
Hordes existed, but only a few factions could have them, goblins and skaven for instance. The rational for horses was similar though, give the unit cheap stubborn via a character or hatred.
For all the gripe about 8th, just one rule in 6th (and prior) tops them. The old hatred rules which gave Ld10 selectively. Ld10 night goblins vs dwarves, why bother turning up to play, you wont get through the horde.
Unit killer spells also were very much a thing. However in 8th anyone could haver them, except dwarfs. In 6th they were privilege for some factions, notably High elves and Tzeentch. Most spells were overly expensive and did a wet farts damage, except Green Fire and Flames of the Phoenix and one or two others.
People complain at 8th for having broken magic, when 6th was doubly broken because access to extreme damaging spells was lobsided. Most lores of magic in 6th struggled to do much.
As for bloat. 6th did give us Ravening Hordes which was very streamlined, but that was never intended to stay.
This thread needs some honesty.
Truth be told WHFB was and is a flawed system and the flaws run deep. We just enjoy it nonetheless. Everyone here has nostalgia goggles firmly in place, its a matter of which ones, 6th, 8th, early T9A. Its a hoobby so there is no problem with that. The real problem is that too many don't realise they are wearing them and think their own assessments to be objective.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/03/29 12:23:37
n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.
It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion.
Orlanth wrote: Because the thread starts with an assumption people are tempted to answer with 'because'.
Reread the start of the thread. The question pertains to why the player base thinned out so bad during 8th, bad enough for GW to go Scorched Earth with the system and move forward with AOS.
Orlanth wrote: 8th is still played, and those who affirm its death do so in favour of other systems that have the same or more problems.
Neither the original poster NOR anyone else in this thread said that 8th isn't being played at all. And as far as "the same or more problems"? This is a classic case of someone's personal preferences being mistaken for empirical data.
The respondents to this thread are giving their anecdotal evidence as to why they stopped 8th, or in some cases how they didn't as there is a total absence of a consensus within the player base that left. Just because "For me personally" isn't at the beginning of every post does NOT mean it should not be inferred. In fact, I'd say it's obvious that it SHOULD be inferred.
Orlanth wrote: 6th was moved on from for a reason.
Hordes existed, but only a few factions could have them, goblins and skaven for instance. The rational for horses was similar though, give the unit cheap stubborn via a character or hatred.
I'll assume horses was supposed to be hordes, and I'll move on from there. You are correct that not everyone had horde armies, and there weren't any benefits to running them other than having lots of units on the board.
You are incorrect about transferring Stubborn or Hatred to a unit, though. COMPLETELY incorrect. The only time Stubborn is brought on to a unit by a character is when there is a special rule that specifies such. Hammerers are the best example. However, I sincerely doubt anyone would consider that unit a cheap Horde unit, so kind of doesn't back up your claim.
Also, 6th WAS moved on from for a reason: current edition bias. At least by the fanbase. It was moved on from the studio because in typical GW fashion the excesses of a few writers created army book problems that were fixed by amending the main rules rather than replacing the army books. GW has always been the type that has a problem with creating a 'solution trying to find a problem'.
Orlanth wrote: For all the gripe about 8th, just one rule in 6th (and prior) tops them. The old hatred rules which gave Ld10 selectively. Ld10 night goblins vs dwarves, why bother turning up to play, you wont get through the horde.
Now this is flat out unequivocally false. Hatred does not give a unit LD10 in 6th.
*Rules for Hatred and Stubborn attached*
You've had a rather long and proud history as a 6th Ed. naysayer on here, but on this one you are completely off base. Rather than assume you're flat out lying I'll assume you simply don't know the rule completely, like all those people who claim you consolidate 2D6" in 3rd Ed. 40K.
Orlanth wrote: Unit killer spells also were very much a thing. However in 8th anyone could haver them, except dwarfs. In 6th they were privilege for some factions, notably High elves and Tzeentch. Most spells were overly expensive and did a wet farts damage, except Green Fire and Flames of the Phoenix and one or two others.
Once again, certain factions having things other factions didn't was not uncommon back then. In fact EVERY faction had something that none of the other factions did. It isn't nearly as gamebreaking as you play it off.
While we're at it, let's discuss how lethal those spells actually are:
Green Fire, if you actually manage to get it for your randomly generated spells, is cast on a 9+ and causes the unit affected to fight itself. So unless you are fortunate enough to cast it on a unit with strength improving weapons, a 20 man unit statistically scores 10 hits and wounds 5. Saves from there. Damn. I can see how this is comparable to Purple Sun. For the sake of argument, we run the same scenario with halberds or great weapons. Wounds go from 5 to 7 or 9 depending on weapon statistically. Still not the unit killer you advertise. Also, pretty sure that'd draw out scrolls or a disproportionate amount of dispel dice depending on what magic you have on top of that.
Flames of the Phoenix hits every model. Absolutely. At St. 3, which means half the unit wounded for anything T3. Still get saves, so if you're lucky you'll get 10 dead, but probably not. Closer to 6. Now hit Saurus, Chaos Warriors, Orcs, or Dwarfs. Totally different outcome. That's ALSO assuming that the person gets the spell if they didn't pay for Seer AND that you make the casting roll of 11+. Remember that you can't 6 dice spells in 6th like you can spells in 8th.
Orlanth wrote: People complain at 8th for having broken magic, when 6th was doubly broken because access to extreme damaging spells was lobsided. Most lores of magic in 6th struggled to do much.
Even those spells you listed didn't do much. 6th was all about psychology and unit pressure, casualties were light from EVERY direction. People complain about the 8th system being broken because it WAS. When something is universally exploited from every documented game result currently available to read/watch online, it shifts from fluke to design.
Orlanth wrote: As for bloat. 6th did give us Ravening Hordes which was very streamlined, but that was never intended to stay.
One thing we agree upon, and hopefully will be the same case for The Old World.
You're right, because I couldn't find it earlier in this post...
Orlanth wrote: Truth be told WHFB was and is a flawed system and the flaws run deep. We just enjoy it nonetheless. Everyone here has nostalgia goggles firmly in place, its a matter of which ones, 6th, 8th, early T9A. Its a hoobby so there is no problem with that. The real problem is that too many don't realise they are wearing them and think their own assessments to be objective.
Nostalgia goggles, eh? What about those people who play said editions and are new to Warhammer completely? There are quite a few of those popping up thanks to TWW, and they are landing on pretty much every one of the popular editions evenly. It could be, would you possibly agree, that people simply have preferences that aren't definitively right or wrong, and that one's personal preference doesn't invalidate someone else's?
BlaxicanX wrote: A young business man named Tom Kirby, who was a pupil of mine until he turned greedy, helped the capitalists hunt down and destroy the wargamers. He betrayed and murdered Games Workshop.
I noticed. Just figured he misremembered how long it was a thing.
BlaxicanX wrote: A young business man named Tom Kirby, who was a pupil of mine until he turned greedy, helped the capitalists hunt down and destroy the wargamers. He betrayed and murdered Games Workshop.
Eldarain wrote: I noticed. Just figured he misremembered how long it was a thing.
And I would have extended that level of courtesy if he hadn't been a bit of an anti-6th commenter on here, and spread a few other nuggets of misinformation. I tend to give everyone the benefit of the doubt to an extent, and I didn't get flat out rude. Nor WOULD I, as I actually value Orlanth's opinion on here. We've had several discussions in the past that were disagreements but more than civil. I'd like to hope this isn't going to be the start of a trend...
Orlanth wrote: Because the thread starts with an assumption people are tempted to answer with 'because'.
Reread the start of the thread. The question pertains to why the player base thinned out so bad during 8th, bad enough for GW to go Scorched Earth with the system and move forward with AOS.
Rethink your reply. This was peak Kirby, GW was on the ropes due to poor management choices and poorer pricing.
The respondents to this thread are giving their anecdotal evidence as to why they stopped 8th, or in some cases how they didn't as there is a total absence of a consensus within the player base that left. Just because "For me personally" isn't at the beginning of every post does NOT mean it should not be inferred. In fact, I'd say it's obvious that it SHOULD be inferred.
You are incorrect about transferring Stubborn or Hatred to a unit, though. COMPLETELY incorrect. The only time Stubborn is brought on to a unit by a character is when there is a special rule that specifies such. Hammerers are the best example. However, I sincerely doubt anyone would consider that unit a cheap Horde unit, so kind of doesn't back up your claim.
You vehemently prove my point with gusto. Thank you.
The problem with 6th and rules like Stubborn that not only were they overpowered, but they were not universal. Steadfast meant you could get stubborn anywhere, prior to Steadfast you were either privileged to get broken rules or you were not.
As for Hatred. I concede that it was 5th and earlier.
Also, 6th WAS moved on from for a reason: current edition bias. At least by the fanbase. It was moved on from the studio because in typical GW fashion the excesses of a few writers created army book problems that were fixed by amending the main rules rather than replacing the army books. GW has always been the type that has a problem with creating a 'solution trying to find a problem'.
That is GW in a nutshell, but you misread the cause. GW changes rules editions to sell more books. It was never intended to be fixed.
Green Fire, if you actually manage to get it for your randomly generated spells, is cast on a 9+ and causes the unit affected to fight itself. So unless you are fortunate enough to cast it on a unit with strength improving weapons, a 20 man unit statistically scores 10 hits and wounds 5. Saves from there. Damn. I can see how this is comparable to Purple Sun. For the sake of argument, we run the same scenario with halberds or great weapons. Wounds go from 5 to 7 or 9 depending on weapon statistically. Still not the unit killer you advertise. Also, pretty sure that'd draw out scrolls or a disproportionate amount of dispel dice depending on what magic you have on top of that.
Magic heavy armies can reliably get any spell in a single lore. It is not guaranteed but likely if you chase it. Tzeentch, doubly so. Also you choose the target so yes you will target a unit with great weapons and in all likelihood 2+ it off the table.
Flames of the Phoenix hits every model. Absolutely. At St. 3, which means half the unit wounded for anything T3. Still get saves, so if you're lucky you'll get 10 dead, but probably not. Closer to 6. Now hit Saurus, Chaos Warriors, Orcs, or Dwarfs. Totally different outcome. That's ALSO assuming that the person gets the spell if they didn't pay for Seer AND that you make the casting roll of 11+. Remember that you can't 6 dice spells in 6th like you can spells in 8th.
Then its S4 next magic phase, then S5. In reality the opponent doesn't get a magic phase after Flames of the Phoenix, because they mass dice dispel it. If they fail that then the targeted unit is as good as dead.
You cant 6 dice spells in 6th, but you are also uncapped in magic dice accumulation. Tzeentch and Vampire armies with 20 magic dice were not uncommon. Like I said, selectively broken, as the eight regular winds of magic were very lacklustre.
Orlanth wrote: People complain at 8th for having broken magic, when 6th was doubly broken because access to extreme damaging spells was lobsided. Most lores of magic in 6th struggled to do much.
Even those spells you listed didn't do much. 6th was all about psychology and unit pressure, casualties were light from EVERY direction. People complain about the 8th system being broken because it WAS. When something is universally exploited from every documented game result currently available to read/watch online, it shifts from fluke to design.
Casualties were again selectively light. Let us take shooting as an example. Most shooting was a fart in the wind, until two ranks fire was introduced. The odd exceptions that were not were magnified because of it. 8th volley guns were as broken as 6th volley guns, but 8th had alternate means of effective shooting.
Also single rank close combat favoured single rank monsterous units. Fight in extra ranks made infantry more viable, it went too far the other way, characters became less important and thus overpriced.
With magic, and there were a select few other mass death spells, but only a few. Lobsided access was as much of a problem.
As for people complaining 8th was broken, you mean you, it is not a universal sentiment. 8th remains popular, there are YouTube channels doing 8th edition battle reports.
All WHFB was broken, but 8th was not especially broken or 6th especially stable.
Orlanth wrote: Truth be told WHFB was and is a flawed system and the flaws run deep. We just enjoy it nonetheless. Everyone here has nostalgia goggles firmly in place, its a matter of which ones, 6th, 8th, early T9A. Its a hobby so there is no problem with that. The real problem is that too many don't realise they are wearing them and think their own assessments to be objective.
Nostalgia goggles, eh? What about those people who play said editions and are new to Warhammer completely?
I would certainly not say 'start with 6th'. Go to AoS, Kings of War or T9A, then walk back.
There are quite a few of those popping up thanks to TWW, and they are landing on pretty much every one of the popular editions evenly. It could be, would you possibly agree, that people simply have preferences that aren't definitively right or wrong, and that one's personal preference doesn't invalidate someone else's?
That would be a wiser comment if only you applied it to yourself.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/03/31 12:18:13
n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.
It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion.
Since we seem to be straying off topic, I'll contribute to that by saying when I got into WFB a couple of years ago (playing online via TTS, so the need to buy £10k of rats or w/e to play a horde wasn't an issue), we went for 7th edition with the 6th edition army books, mostly because of all the things Orlanth seems to consider advantages (every unit having a pile of special rules, all factions having access to symmetrical options). 8th edition gave the impression of being both overcomplicated and boring, at least in terms of putting together an army list (which was our first criterion). I've never actually played a game of 8th, so perhaps it would be actually really smooth and exciting in play, but the books and the sentiment of the reviews didn't give that impression.
I certainly think the premise of the OP is reasonable; I've never seen any lfg posts for 8th edition in my various fora, pretty much just 6th, 9th age, and WAP.
I remember two of my last few games with offical rules.
50 skeleton archers in what was considered are medium sized game. All fire, got 1 wound though, with my lord not killing enough to pay for her points.
Hard counters and not well designed where just built in it felt.
It’s been a long while I pulled out my army books to play.
Then my wood elves got updated lol. They gave what seemed to be amazing infantry that I don’t think ever didn’t hit way above there weight. I forget what rules combo, but it just felt crazy at the time.
Also, I hated my monsters get blown apart from cannons. Some felt basically dead 50/50.