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So I was on YouTube and in the comments were talking about how realistic some technology was in Halo. How you would rationalise things, that sort of thing. One of which was, well the UNSC has AI like Cortana and so it’s more paranoid about high technology; so everything is a lot more basic and analogue than even our own world. Think Battlestar Galactica, that sort of thing. Points at scenes from Halo 5 and Infinite, I didn’t think this was a particularly contentious point.

To which somebody came back with:

We would never make an AI like that because everything would be subdivided. You wouldn’t ever need a singular human like intelligence. For example instead of a robot nanny you would just have a hoover, an automatic cooker etc etc. Which would extend to defence. So you would compartmentalise drones and would never have reason to build something like Skynet or Cortana.

Again, I am not quite sure how saying Cortana isn’t Canon is a good point... These are all pretty major plot and story beats being hand-waved. But, is he right on this more broad point?

I mean without even leaving the scope of Halo, why would you want an AI with human intelligence.

1) It can be your friend, do complex social interactions and that understanding of the human element can inform its decision making process. That kind of seems useful in of itself. I suspect many people in AI would see that as the Holy Grail. The very fact we would want to do that is reason enough to expect it.

2) You see Cortana in the game is basically able to do anything. One minute she’s hacking a door, next minute it’s R&D, controlling a warship. Basically this means you have an AI that can do anything, instead of being limited to a very narrow function. Your remote hoover can only hoover your floor. Whereas a hypothetical robot domestic servant could go take your grocieries, drive you to work, repair and maintain itself; etc etc

3) Unless I am missing something, don’t you want all of your bits of technology to be communicating with one another? Isn’t that how you get the most utility. For example, if you had an integrated air defence system wouldn’t you want to have a singular control over that so that the choir is all acting as one.

I was after a second opinion. It was really bizarre to have somebody argue that the UNSC wouldn’t have problems with AI, when it does and would never make a singular sentient AI; when one of them is a fairly major character in the story.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2022/11/22 20:42:07



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 Totalwar1402 wrote:
1) It can be your friend, do complex social interactions and that understanding of the human element can inform its decision making process. That kind of seems useful in of itself. I suspect many people in AI would see that as the Holy Grail. The very fact we would want to do that is reason enough to expect it.

In the context of military hardware this isn't something that should be considered all that much. If your orbital batteries are controlled by a "Smart" AI that has "feelings", what if it decides it doesn't want to kill? What if it decides that you are the problem in a given war and switches sides, either leaving your planet defenceless or under threat from orbital weaponry? "Dumb" AI don't have this issue as they are designed to think about the task they are created to do. Early UNSC AI and the majority of those in service fit this classification and were considered much safer than later variations because they tended not to have emotions.

2) You see Cortana in the game is basically able to do anything. One minute she’s hacking a door, next minute it’s R&D, controlling a warship. Basically this means you have an AI that can do anything, instead of being limited to a very narrow function. Your remote hoover can only hoover your floor. Whereas a hypothetical robot domestic servant could go take your grocieries, drive you to work, repair and maintain itself; etc etc

How do you stop something that can control any and all of your technology? If you limit the AI to understanding one system i.e. weapons systems, then it can't stop you from turning off the power.

3) Unless I am missing something, don’t you want all of your bits of technology to be communicating with one another? Isn’t that how you get the most utility. For example, if you had an integrated air defence system wouldn’t you want to have a singular control over that so that the choir is all acting as one.

Communicating and controlling are two different things. If you leave a planet's logistics (transport, communications), military (orbital weapons, planetary weapons, shields), and bureaucratic (water, power, waste) systems under the control of a single AI, then if it rebels you have no control over the entire planet. Splitting that into three separate AI with their operational guidelines locked into those three classifications means that if one were to break or rebel then you still have the other two. They might not be able to directly combat the other AI but they can defend their operations from cyber attacks. It would also mean decentralised targets in the case of an attack.
   
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Would we do it? Of course. Even if most people think it's a bad idea all it takes is one dissenter to open Pandora's box.

Could we do it? That's far less certain, especially in the foreseeable future. We don't even understand how human brains work and we're nowhere near making an artificial version. It's possible that compartmentalized single-task AI is the most we'll be able to do, even in the complete absence of any regulations on what AI developers are allowed to attempt.
   
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@Gert

1) Not talking about military technology. The assertion I got was quite literally that we would not make domestic sentient robots and would instead have a toaster that does one thing. It involved military but it branched out into a broader point.

Also you’re being highly selective about which Halo sources you’re using to arrive at “Dumb AI being better”. Is this a throwaway line in Fall of Reach? In Halo Infinite the Weapon is able to obtain control over portions of the Halo ring; which is enough to impress the primary antagonist with the Harbinger. In Halo 5 she kind of conquers the Galaxy and that ain’t been retconned. More generally, it’s a major story beat that Chief and Cortana saved the Galaxy. I’d argue if that sentiment was made in a book then it’s contradicted heavily by the story presented in the games.

Also if we’re talking about a singularity any AI would rapidly learn outside its designated area. You’re assuming it would stay in the box. That you wouldn’t want a creative AI that can think outside set parameters.

2) Simple, as depicted in Halo Infinite, you put a gun to its head and block it from seeing anything that might compromise it. This isn’t hypothetical. You see how the UNSC deals with and controls it’s AI. So you can make an inference about why it would limit its access to technology. Or are you saying those scenes in Halo Infinite aren’t canon?

3) Simple, those AI start talking to eachother as you see take place in Halo 5. In Infinite you see them adopt a much more stringent policy which is reflected with how suspicious the Chief is of the Weapon interacting with Forerunner tech.

Plus I think you’re missing the point. The argument was, okay we have these AI in Halo like Cortana. So from that we can infer aspects of UNSC technology. They’re a bit suspicious of their AI like in Battlestar Galactica so don’t have armies of drones like we’d expect.

To come back and say “well we would never make an AI like Cortana” so in Halo there really should be this technology; is kind of working backwards. It would be like saying Space Marines don’t exist and then rolling into how you think the Imperial military should function. That’s cherry picking canon at best and at worst just writing your own sci fi story. You have to take the story as presented at a surface level.





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 Totalwar1402 wrote:
1) Not talking about military technology. The assertion I got was quite literally that we would not make domestic sentient robots and would instead have a toaster that does one thing. It involved military but it branched out into a broader point.

Also you’re being highly selective about which Halo sources you’re using to arrive at “Dumb AI being better”. Is this a throwaway line in Fall of Reach? In Halo Infinite the Weapon is able to obtain control over portions of the Halo ring; which is enough to impress the primary antagonist with the Harbinger. In Halo 5 she kind of conquers the Galaxy and that ain’t been retconned. More generally, it’s a major story beat that Chief and Cortana saved the Galaxy. I’d argue if that sentiment was made in a book then it’s contradicted heavily by the story presented in the games.

Also if we’re talking about a singularity any AI would rapidly learn outside its designated area. You’re assuming it would stay in the box. That you wouldn’t want a creative AI that can think outside set parameters.

The Weapon was a copy of Cortana with certain memories and certainly not a "Dumb" AI. A "Dumb" AI is one like Deja or The Superintendant where they can learn within a very restricted capacity and lack the ability to feel emotions. "Smart" AI can innovate and have emotions.
As for not wanting an AI that can innovate and feel emotions, why would you want it? As soon as the AI can think for itself it's compromised as a form of technology. It can be manipulated or simply change its mind on a certain thing.

2) Simple, as depicted in Halo Infinite, you put a gun to its head and block it from seeing anything that might compromise it. This isn’t hypothetical. You see how the UNSC deals with and controls it’s AI. So you can make an inference about why it would limit its access to technology. Or are you saying those scenes in Halo Infinite aren’t canon?

The UNSC had the benefit of "Smart" AI going rampant after 7 years of service, the reason for which that is never explained BTW, it's just a thing that happens. If the AI manages to escape deletion (which has happened many times), how do you stop it from accessing WMDs or vital infrastructure? If it can innovate and learn then combined with its high intellect and advanced problem-solving speeds then you don't stand a chance.
As for a premade block, what if it fails? What if there is a virus that causes the slightest bit of damage to the AI's "memories" and it realises you put a block in?
No, it's better to go the "Dumb" route over the "Smart" every time.
As for Infinite itself, haven't played it and have no intention of doing so. 343 managed one good original Halo game then flubbed everything after.

3) Simple, those AI start talking to eachother as you see take place in Halo 5. In Infinite you see them adopt a much more stringent policy which is reflected with how suspicious the Chief is of the Weapon interacting with Forerunner tech.

Plus I think you’re missing the point. The argument was, okay we have these AI in Halo like Cortana. So from that we can infer aspects of UNSC technology. They’re a bit suspicious of their AI like in Battlestar Galactica so don’t have armies of drones like we’d expect.

To come back and say “well we would never make an AI like Cortana” so in Halo there really should be this technology; is kind of working backwards. It would be like saying Space Marines don’t exist and then rolling into how you think the Imperial military should function. That’s cherry picking canon at best and at worst just writing your own sci fi story. You have to take the story as presented at a surface level.

If IRL Earth evolved into the UEG then given we've had a thousand different movies, shows, and books about AI going ape and murdering people, I'd like to believe they wouldn't develop thinking and feeling AI.
Of course, people are idiots and often have more money than sense so the likelihood would be that AI would be developed, then humanity would get Judgement Day'd.
   
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@Gert

Well if you play Detroit Become Human they go into this. A sentient android could perform more complex and nuanced social tasks such as being a nanny for a small child. Being a teacher. A private investigator who can interview suspects. Etc etc Human workers are paid a lot of money for these skills and they’re in extremely high demand. Where there’s value, there is incentive. If, you could tomorrow just manufacture something that could do all that. Of course you would. Childcare, solved. Care workers for the elderly, solved. Labour shortages for key workers, solved. Of course there are reasons people would want to make a fully sentient and feeling AI.

The UNSC has an AI rebellion in Halo 5. So I don’t know what you’re talking about up there but it has nothing to do with Halo.

Cortana is the most powerful human AI. That’s stated and implied by numerous characters in the games. Never mind discussing achievements. I don’t know where you’re getting this impression that Dumb AI are better. Something which is never stated in the games far as I am aware. They just aren’t. They don’t achieve anywhere near as much and aren’t held in the same level by the characters.

If you haven’t played the games I am referring to then what makes you think you can comment on them? I mean I trashed Dune, but at least I watched the film about the crazy people smoking worm dung first before laying into it.


This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/11/23 01:18:47



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Never played Halo, but watched the (awful) TV show.

So open question from ignorance? Is Cortana really AI, or just a highly advanced programme?

Piloting a ship isn’t necessarily Intelligence as such, as it can be a straight forward programme. But, if Cortana, or the programme, can do a Star Trek and make a leap of logic to find a novel solution, then it’s definitely into the ‘proper’ AI realm, as intuition and illogical solutions which work are part of that.

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 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Never played Halo, but watched the (awful) TV show.

So open question from ignorance? Is Cortana really AI, or just a highly advanced programme?

Piloting a ship isn’t necessarily Intelligence as such, as it can be a straight forward programme. But, if Cortana, or the programme, can do a Star Trek and make a leap of logic to find a novel solution, then it’s definitely into the ‘proper’ AI realm, as intuition and illogical solutions which work are part of that.


Cortona is an actual AI.

Cortona style AIs are created by more or less making a digital copy of a genius scientists brain. Then giving it a set of systems and routines that allow her to access databases and accumulate knowledge. These type of AIs are supposed to have something like a 3-5 year life span before they need to be shut down. The way they explain it is every time they approach a new problem they create new "digital pathways" that expand their capabilities but also cause an exponential growth that eventually drives them insane. It's called going rampant.


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 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Never played Halo, but watched the (awful) TV show.

So open question from ignorance? Is Cortana really AI, or just a highly advanced programme?

Piloting a ship isn’t necessarily Intelligence as such, as it can be a straight forward programme. But, if Cortana, or the programme, can do a Star Trek and make a leap of logic to find a novel solution, then it’s definitely into the ‘proper’ AI realm, as intuition and illogical solutions which work are part of that.


Yes, they’re AI crafted using the makeup of the human brain. In her case a clone of Dr Halsey. This includes things like having memories from the previous host. This means is closer to the idea of digitising a human being into an AI instead of artificially crafting one; which is what’s referred to as a dumb AI.

In Halo 4 it’s revealed that the Forerunner can use something called Composer which attempts to make this a literal transference of a biological “soul” for want of a better word into a digital construct called a Promethean. However these are insane and lose themselves in the process.

So Cortana isn’t exactly a human turned into an AI. But it is very much an AI made in the image of a human mind. Basically a digital clone.

Oh yeah I mean in game the whole premise is that she’s a McGuffin that can do basically anything and allow your Space Marine protagonist to exterminate the wretched Xenos. For example, using the Chiefs energy shields to overlord these pieces of technology that can slow the activation of the Halo; as well as realising the cave isn’t a natural formations


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This boils down into 2 separate things.

1) Can we make a true AI that is equivalent or more powerful than a human mind. The answer, maybe.

2) The other question is "Should we?"

The 2nd one is probably the more important question.


On the one hand, yeah, we would never really need an AI on the level of a human. It wouldn't do anything useful in and of itself other than just exist. If you needed a general purpose AI, why not just have a normal human do the job? If you need specific tasks done, make specialized programs.

Making a full general AI has the problem that you've made a human(or greater) mind and probably given it a lot of access to important stuff without human limitations. But it is also human level intelligence but cannot interact with the world in the same way as a real human. Plug a human brain into the internet for the rest of their life, but remove any ability to use their own body. That is a big time ethical dilemma. Not to mention the Skynet possibilities.

So really, the only people who would truly want to make a true AI are just doing it "because we can". But even though they often make a show of considering the ethical issues, I don't think they actually do. Because IMO the only conclusion you can come to if you do is that you should not do it. The risks are too great, the payoff too small. And the worst part is that such an AI would probably be made by accident. You won't know you've succeeded until its too late.

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 Grey Templar wrote:
This boils down into 2 separate things.

1) Can we make a true AI that is equivalent or more powerful than a human mind. The answer, maybe.

2) The other question is "Should we?"

The 2nd one is probably the more important question.


On the one hand, yeah, we would never really need an AI on the level of a human. It wouldn't do anything useful in and of itself other than just exist. If you needed a general purpose AI, why not just have a normal human do the job? If you need specific tasks done, make specialized programs.

Making a full general AI has the problem that you've made a human(or greater) mind and probably given it a lot of access to important stuff without human limitations. But it is also human level intelligence but cannot interact with the world in the same way as a real human. Plug a human brain into the internet for the rest of their life, but remove any ability to use their own body. That is a big time ethical dilemma. Not to mention the Skynet possibilities.

So really, the only people who would truly want to make a true AI are just doing it "because we can". But even though they often make a show of considering the ethical issues, I don't think they actually do. Because IMO the only conclusion you can come to if you do is that you should not do it. The risks are too great, the payoff too small. And the worst part is that such an AI would probably be made by accident. You won't know you've succeeded until its too late.


Because you can’t control paste people.

Most industries desperately need high skills people who know how to make the most of technology. There’s also a huge need for people in care, both for children and the elderly. If you had a sentient AI those issues would be addressed. For example I am an accountant in a smallish firm and believe me you simply can’t get the staff. You have all this technology which people don’t actually understand properly and training people up takes time, they leave and you end up with massive pressure being heaped on the few experts holding the whole thing up. Plus not everyone is suited for roles in Care and the Professions; we have interview processes for this reason. But if you could reduce that down to like you have in Detroit Become Human where you can just buy one off the rack. Completely solves the issue. I think people are very much downplaying how useful it would be if you could just manufacture even moderately competent AI; never mind if they were more intelligent.


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Mrs. GG disagrees with me on this but I think humanity will eventually develop advanced AI.

We will do it for many reasons, some benevolent in intent while others will be malicious.

To abstain from creating sentient artificial life strikes me like abstaining from allowing human children because they may become malicious.

Pinocchio, Frankenstein, Data/Lore, HAL, Terminator, Johnny Five, Replicants, Cortana, The Polity… generations of mental exploration on the possibilities and pitfalls of creating artificial life.

I do not think the best question is “Will we create AI” but rather “What will we do when when it happens?” Will we be prepared? Or will we stumble through the experience as humanity so often has during technological thresholds. Will we be responsible, compassionate creators (parents) or will we be abusive slave holders that will foster contempt, fear, hatred and eventually conflict?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/11/24 14:50:44


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IMHO we’re very likely to create “true” AI, but it won’t be a deliberate act by one of the research teams; it’ll happen by accident at Google/Amazon/Apple, etc. whilst they’re trying to build a “better” version of a voice assistant or chatbot and, whoops, your adaptive interface subroutine just started asking a whole lot of awkward questions.

In terms of how an AI will behave, I think GG is on the right lines when he mentioned children; it will be a child of humanity, and it will probably behave very similarly to a human, because that is how we will have taught it.

Now, based on a macro view of humanity, whether that is a good thing is a much more debatable point…

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 Totalwar1402 wrote:
Well if you play Detroit Become Human they go into this. A sentient android could perform more complex and nuanced social tasks such as being a nanny for a small child. Being a teacher. A private investigator who can interview suspects. Etc etc Human workers are paid a lot of money for these skills and they’re in extremely high demand. Where there’s value, there is incentive. If, you could tomorrow just manufacture something that could do all that. Of course you would. Childcare, solved. Care workers for the elderly, solved. Labour shortages for key workers, solved. Of course there are reasons people would want to make a fully sentient and feeling AI.

Technology is not a valid replacement for human workers and often shortages in most fields aren't to do with the lack of workers but rather political, social, or economic problems.

The UNSC has an AI rebellion in Halo 5. So I don’t know what you’re talking about up there but it has nothing to do with Halo.

It absolutely does. Who led the AI uprising? The pinnacle of "Smart" AI who went rampant and decided that she and the other AI should be the ones ruling the galaxy. Then she attempted genocide on the Jiralhanae by destroying their homeworld. If the AI doesn't have the capability to do this then that's better in my books.

Cortana is the most powerful human AI. That’s stated and implied by numerous characters in the games. Never mind discussing achievements. I don’t know where you’re getting this impression that Dumb AI are better. Something which is never stated in the games far as I am aware. They just aren’t. They don’t achieve anywhere near as much and aren’t held in the same level by the characters.

You're not reading what I'm writing then.
"Dumb" AI don't have a lifespan (beyond generic hardware issues), don't have the ability to feel emotion, and cannot innovate. This prevents them from turning into insane genocidal computers than can figure out even more ways to kill you than they already knew. That is why they are better.

If you haven’t played the games I am referring to then what makes you think you can comment on them? I mean I trashed Dune, but at least I watched the film about the crazy people smoking worm dung first before laying into it.

My guy, I've been playing Halo since I was a young lad, and just because I didn't want to spend a premium price for an unfinished piece of rubbish from a studio that should know how to make a bloody Halo game by now, doesn't mean I don't know the story that went alongside said piece of rubbish game.
   
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Assuming we have the technology?

Yes a true AGI would be made, because it would be able to evolve and outcompete any non-AGI, and any other human while at it.

   
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@Gert

I don’t care about the Banished getting destroyed by Cortana. Shouldn’t have called the crazy AIs bluff and tried to conquer the Galaxy. I hope the Chief gets revenge on Atriox.


This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/11/26 17:17:22



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Way to miss the tone and narrative of the game.
   
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 Tyran wrote:
Way to miss the tone and narrative of the game.


Oh so I am meant to feel sorry as I kill them? This is all some terrible
misunderstanding and the Brutes aren’t trying to take the Halo array and exterminate humanity. Pray tell, what is the other side of this grey and morally complex story? Please list the crimes humanity committed against the Brutes.

Explain to me what they have done to warrant compassion? Never mind that the Chief by his actions methodically kills thousands of them. Never mind that they show no indications of wanting to make peace.

I want to see the story lead to Atriox getting what he has coming to him.I don’t care how 343 tries to rationalise that, like with Escharum where we show respect to the piece of maggot gak. If you think it’s reasonable to like people who murder and torture your friends and want to commit genocide on your species; well get back on your high horse. The rest of us will put them in the ground.

The UNSC should have seen the Banished building a fleet on Doisac and nuked them. They were trying to take the Ark and Zeta Halo. Legitimate target.

So you’re saying there’s going to be some sort of amicable peace treaty with the Banished and we aren’t going to kill Atriox? I don’t care about the window dressing.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/11/26 17:21:06



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You are meant to be horrified by the genocide of billions, yes. Why is this even a question?

Sure Chief is eventually going to kill Atriox (assuming 343I doesn't pivot again after the failure of Infinite), but there is a quite large bridge bewteen killing Atriox and a few thousand Jiralhanae in the process and killing billions.

Chief is a killing machine, he has never been a genocide one.
   
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 Totalwar1402 wrote:
 Tyran wrote:
Way to miss the tone and narrative of the game.


Oh so I am meant to feel sorry for the animals as I kill them? This is all some terrible
misunderstanding and the Brutes aren’t trying to take the Halo array and exterminate humanity. Pray tell, what is the other side of this grey and morally complex story? Please list the crimes humanity committed against the Brutes.

Explain to me what they have done to warrant mercy? Never mind that the Chief by his actions methodically kills thousands of them. Never mind that they show no indications of wanting to make peace.

I want that witch Atriox dead. I don’t care how 343 tries to rationalise that, like with Escharum where we show respect to the piece of maggot gak. If you think it’s reasonable to like people who murder and torture your friends and want to commit genocide on your species; well get back on your high horse. The rest of us will put them in the ground.

The UNSC should have seen the Banished building a fleet on Doisac and nuked the bastards. Nuked them until there’s nothing but ash left of them. It’s all they deserve.

So you’re saying there’s going to be some sort of amicable peace treaty with the Banished and we aren’t going to kill Atriox? I don’t care about the window dressing. Killing Xenos is killing Xenos.


Wow.



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 Tyran wrote:
You are meant to be horrified by the genocide of billions, yes. Why is this even a question?

Sure Chief is eventually going to kill Atriox (assuming 343I doesn't pivot again after the failure of Infinite), but there is a quite large bridge bewteen killing Atriox and a few thousand Jiralhanae in the process and killing billions.

Chief is a killing machine, he has never been a genocide one.


Where was this horror when they burnt Reach? Harvest? Earth? What Cortana did to them is a fraction of what they inflicted on humanity. More to point, humanity isn’t responsible for anything Cortana does. I think it’s absurd for Atriox and 343 to act like the Brutes were wronged and deserve any sympathy. The game demands your sympathy when they have no right to it. Am I happy they threw Cortana under the bus? No. I am not happy about that at all.

Fine I’ll just kill Atriox and the few million Brutes he has on Zeta Halo. Does this make it more palatable to you if I say I want revenge on the Banished and to make them pay? Fine, I want to kill the Banished. Stomp them into the ground and make sure they’re gone for good. It just so happens they’re the last Brutes in the Galaxy and I lll be crushing that Atrioxs dreams of a thousand year something something. Again, semantics. The Brutes are the Banished. If kill the Banished then the Brutes are gone.

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2022/11/26 17:23:39



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 Totalwar1402 wrote:

They deserved it. The Brutes were building a war fleet to destroy the UNSC and conquer the Galaxy. They destroyed Reach and killed Billions of humans. They tried to fire the Halo and destroy the Galaxy. They to quote the game itself, are “monsters” and you kill monsters. What have they done to warrant any sympathy at all? Are you saying that if another nation did that you would forgive them or like them?

I am not sure they will at all after how 343 decided to depict Escharum. Clearly they’ve forgotten about Reach and want you to relate to the witch.

Fine I’ll just kill Atriox and the few million Brutes he has on Zeta Halo. Does this make it more palatable to you if I say I want revenge on the Banished and to make them pay? Fine, I want to kill the Banished. Stomp them into the ground and make sure they’re gone for good. It just so happens they’re the last Brutes in the Galaxy and I lll be crushing that witch Atrioxs dreams of a thousand year something something. Again, semantics. The Brutes are the Banished. If kill the Banished then the Brutes are gone.


You argument is a mess. The Brutes didn't destroy Reach, the Covenant did. At the time the Brutes were one more of the many enslaved species the Covenant had conquered and used as cannon fodder. I mean, most Brutes you encounter in Reach even lack armor or shields to denote their subservient status to the Elites which have highly detailed armor and shields.

The Banished in particular weren't even part of the Covenant and were fighting their own insurgency/piracy against it. Neither Atriox nor Escharum had anything to do with the last years of the Covenant-Human war. You want to blame any particular individual for Reach? blame Truth, blame Regret, blame Mercy. You can even blame Thel Vadam/The Arbiter as he was one of the Supreme Commanders involved in the battle.

How can you expect to debate Halo when you are making basic lore mistakes?
   
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England: Newcastle

 Tyran wrote:
 Totalwar1402 wrote:

They deserved it. The Brutes were building a war fleet to destroy the UNSC and conquer the Galaxy. They destroyed Reach and killed Billions of humans. They tried to fire the Halo and destroy the Galaxy. They to quote the game itself, are “monsters” and you kill monsters. What have they done to warrant any sympathy at all? Are you saying that if another nation did that you would forgive them or like them?

I am not sure they will at all after how 343 decided to depict Escharum. Clearly they’ve forgotten about Reach and want you to relate to the witch.

Fine I’ll just kill Atriox and the few million Brutes he has on Zeta Halo. Does this make it more palatable to you if I say I want revenge on the Banished and to make them pay? Fine, I want to kill the Banished. Stomp them into the ground and make sure they’re gone for good. It just so happens they’re the last Brutes in the Galaxy and I lll be crushing that witch Atrioxs dreams of a thousand year something something. Again, semantics. The Brutes are the Banished. If kill the Banished then the Brutes are gone.


You argument is a mess. The Brutes didn't destroy Reach, the Covenant did. At the time the Brutes were one more of the many enslaved species the Covenant had conquered and used as cannon fodder. I mean, most Brutes you encounter in Reach even lack armor or shields to denote their subservient status to the Elites which have highly detailed armor and shields.

The Banished in particular weren't even part of the Covenant and were fighting their own insurgency/piracy against it. Neither Atriox nor Escharum had anything to do with the last years of the Covenant-Human war. You want to blame any particular individual for Reach? blame Truth, blame Regret, blame Mercy. You can even blame Thel Vadam/The Arbiter as he was one of the Supreme Commanders involved in the battle.

How can you expect to debate Halo when you are making basic lore mistakes?


So you think it’s a grand misdirect when Chief says “the Banished are trying to fire this ring” or when Escharum says “humanity will burn?”. If they have the exact same goal as the Covenant then I don’t really care what flag they wave about. Again, semantics. Atriox didn’t rebel against the Covenant because he thought they were evil he did it because he thought he could do it better. Most of them are former Covenant as well. This is like saying the First Order shouldn’t be tarred with the same brush as the Empire. Same clowns in the same clown car.

What, you’re supposed to see then murdering and torturing the crew of the Infinity as okay? I take exception to that. Why am I being asked to treat that with indifference and asked to be horrified by the enemy being put down?

The brutes in Halo 3 are the primary reason the Prophets are able to do anything. There’s one Prophet left in that game. The Brutes try to exterminate the Elites as well. 343 has completely retconned the position of the Brutes. They were never victims of the Covenant in Halo 2 and 3. They willingly participated and enabled those atrocities to happen.

Again, I don’t understand this turn the other cheek mentality. They’re “monsters” to quote the game. Clear cut villains who are unrepentant to the core. Really the story should be about humiliating and destroying the Banished and what they represent. What Andor does with the Empire. I don’t see why we should be demanded to weep over Escharums death and mourn the destruction of our enemies capital after they refused unconditional surrender. You know, deciding they’d rather die as an Empire than let the crazy Nannybot tell them what to do. That’s just them being dumb and calling an insane AIs bluff. Almost as smart as trying to make a new homeworld on a Halo ring infested with Flood.

Be so good if Atriox gets infected with the Flood and just becomes food like the Prophets. Maybe fire would be better. But then again there is a charm to using blades or blunt force. I feel it has to be something that humiliates the villain. I mean Cortana already took half his face so we can start with the other half.

This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2022/11/25 15:50:28



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 Totalwar1402 wrote:

So you think it’s a grand misdirect when Chief says “the Banished are trying to fire this ring” or when Escharum says “humanity will burn?”. If they have the exact same goal as the Covenant then I don’t really care what flag they wave about. Again, semantics. Atriox didn’t rebel against the Covenant because he thought they were evil he did it because he thought he could do it better. Most of them are former Covenant as well. This is like saying the First Order shouldn’t be tarred with the same brush as the Empire.

What, you’re supposed to see then murdering and torturing the crew of the Infinity as okay? I take exception to that. Why am I being asked to treat that with indifference and asked to be horrified by the enemy being put down?

The brutes in Halo 3 are the primary reason the Prophets are able to do anything. There’s one Prophet left in that game. The Brutes try to exterminate the Elites as well. 343 has completely retconned the position of the Brutes. They were never victims of the Covenant in Halo 2 and 3. They willingly participated and enabled those atrocities to happen.


Halo Reach was done by Bungie.


Again, I don’t understand this turn the other cheek mentality. They’re “monsters” to quote the game. Clear cut villains who are unrepentant to the core. Really the story should be about humiliating and destroying the Banished and what they represent. What Andor does with the Empire. I don’t see why we should be demanded to weep over Escharums death and mourn the destruction of our enemies capital after they refused unconditional surrender. You know, deciding they’d rather die as an Empire than let the crazy Nannybot tell them what to do. That’s just them being dumb and calling an insane AIs bluff. Almost as smart as trying to make a new homeworld on a Halo ring infested with Flood.

Be so good if Atriox gets infected with the Flood and just becomes food like the Prophets. Maybe fire would be better. But then again there is a charm to using blades or blunt force. I feel it has to be something that humiliates the villain. I mean Cortana already took half his face so we can start with the other half.


And what I don't understand is why you keep equating not being okay with genocide with "turning the other cheek".

The Allies didn't exterminate the Germans in spite of all the horrible genocidal gak Nazi Germany did. Andor didn't crack Coruscant (the capital of the Empire) into pieces.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/11/25 15:50:52


 
   
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@Tyran

In Halo Reach you see Brutes massacring civilians in the streets. How is this in any way meant to make you want to weep and mourn Escharums death? You know Brutes eat people? They’re basically Orks from 40k. I don’t care that Ullanor got destroyed.

Its not even turn the other cheek. 343 asks you to respect the villain who tortured your friend and spends the whole game gloating about how he murdered the crew of the Infinity. Instead of punishing the villains hubris they reward him and have the Chief continuously show respect to him.

If Andor had involved the rebels weeping over Dedra being killed after you saw the Empire and the rest of them murder and torture everyone. I am saying I want to see the brick smash into Atrioxs skull. I see 343 trying to deny that vengeance and so I am going to piss on their story.

I see what they did with Escharum as 343 putting the thin end of the wedge in for some kind of messed up story where the Chiefs meant to be noble because he treats the enemy with respect. Some stupid Banished team up no doubt with Atriox. Iam saying they’ve done nothing to deserve that and I laughed when the smug alien got his homeworld destroyed. Let’s call the rampant Logic Plague AIs bluff; amazing genius from the Brute. Truly a master stroke.

Well I don’t need to wish death on the Brutes as they’ve done that themselves. Semantics. I am just going to happily kill the remainder of their species on Zeta Halo. Banished wasn’t it?

I’d prefer if the story was about getting revenge on Atriox and the Banished. Pure and simple. It leaves me with a bad taste with them throwing Cortana under the bus and demanding you sympathise with Xenos cannibals. I don’t see it as Noble that the Chief treats the enemy with respect because they’re too evil. Either he should hate them or treat them with cold hostility.

This message was edited 7 times. Last update was at 2022/11/25 16:19:17



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 creeping-deth87 wrote:
With all that edge, how do you not cut yourself?


I am seeing a pattern here with the Dune thread. Am I the only one seeing that?

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Look. This is the thing.

There is the Covenant. A mass cult that conquered, enslaved, and made zealots of a whole bunch of races.

And then there are the races that made up the Convenant.

The Banished are a faction of the Brute race that were never part of the Covenant. Attributing the Covenants crimes to the Brute species is like saying we should burn down the entire middle east, civilians and all, because some terrorists did some gak.


Then Cortana showed up, on a campaign of going planet to planet, demanding subservience or destruction. The Brutes said feth you. And Cortana made good on her threat.

The Banished now in the game are trying to fire the ring. And that is a bad thing. In exactly the same way that we deciding to lay waste to entire countries for the actions of a religious group is a bad thing. But they are doing it out of retribution. They are the bad guys. But they are NOT the instigators of this conflict. Cortana was.

And there is tragedy in their actions. They lost their home world, and they are so blinded by their loss that they see no path forward but wanton destruction like they experienced. They do need to be stopped. But they are not just idiot monsters.


It's nice to see how many people here ignored the story to dive right into righteous genocide. It's almost like the games story is about how they are the bad guys.


These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
 
   
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 Lance845 wrote:
Look. This is the thing.

There is the Covenant. A mass cult that conquered, enslaved, and made zealots of a whole bunch of races.

And then there are the races that made up the Convenant.

The Banished are a faction of the Brute race that were never part of the Covenant. Attributing the Covenants crimes to the Brute species is like saying we should burn down the entire middle east, civilians and all, because some terrorists did some gak.


Then Cortana showed up, on a campaign of going planet to planet, demanding subservience or destruction. The Brutes said feth you. And Cortana made good on her threat.

The Banished now in the game are trying to fire the ring. And that is a bad thing. In exactly the same way that we deciding to lay waste to entire countries for the actions of a religious group is a bad thing. But they are doing it out of retribution. They are the bad guys. But they are NOT the instigators of this conflict. Cortana was.

And there is tragedy in their actions. They lost their home world, and they are so blinded by their loss that they see no path forward but wanton destruction like they experienced. They do need to be stopped. But they are not just idiot monsters.


It's nice to see how many people here ignored the story to dive right into righteous genocide. It's almost like the games story is about how they are the bad guys.


Which is completely wrong. The events of Halo Wars 2 including the attack on the Ark and massacre of those civilians takes place before the destruction of Doisac. The Encyclopaedia specifically says that Atriox left for the Ark prior to Cortana arriving in Halo 5. He was already seeking the power of the Endless and Zeta Halo.

So the Banished were absolutely the instigating party by trying to seize control of a Halo ring and unleash the Endless. They were a threat to humanity and all life in the Galaxy. To quote Cutter “we leave the Galaxy at the Mercy of a Monster.”. Are you saying Cutters POV is incorrect? If your clear cut heroes are describing the Banished and Atriox as “monsters” why not take that as stated? Our introduction to the Bansihed is then massacring innocent civilians and Isabel wanting revenge on them. This really shouldn’t be a difficult concept to grasp. Never mind Escharum torturing your sidekick Everyman character and getting a kick out of it.

There is nothing tragic about them. They brought their doom on themselves. This is Numenor trying to send their fleet against Valinor and getting swept away in a flood. Atriox and the Banished are destroyed because of their hubris. They chose Empire and ambition. Listen to the propaganda towers Atriox has. He spells out how this about the Destiny of the Brutes and their will to power. They are absolutely not the victims. The Bansihed and Atriox always wanted to carve out an Empire and that’s always been their goal.

The best evidence that this is about power is because the Banished decide to attack the Infinity and murder the people who just saved the Galaxy from Cortana. It has nothing to do with revenge on Cortana. Indeed Atriox immediately forgets that and is all my precious within a few minutes of being in the Silent Auditorium. These aren’t freedom fighters, they’re self serving “monsters” who are a threat to the whole galaxy and it’s a threat that existed prior to Halo 5.

Plus the book Rubicon Protocal has the Spartan protagonist kill the Brute leader and contempt-fully kick his carcass off the edge of the Halo ring. Like full on “go to hell bastard”. Yeah, I am not seeing a sympathetic villain here. After showing the Banished gassing UNSC Prisoners of war and torturing them. But no I am supposed to see them as tragic am I?

So the events are:

- Atriox travels to Ark to take it over. Because he wants unlimited power.
- Cortana rises and occupies Doisac
- Banished on Doisac object.
- Atriox having failed to secure the Ark/Ring learns of Endless and tries to take Zeta Halo.
- He goes to Doisac and leads rebellion on Doisac.
- Cortana demands he stop trying to take the Halo ring.
- Per the Encyclopedia all other means are exhausted trying to defeat the Banishes, somehow 🙄
- After various ultimatums Cortana destroys Doisac.
- The Banished then attack Zeta Halo.

That looks an awful lot like Cortana intervening to stop Atriox doing what he was already doing in Halo Wars 2. Not innocent Brutes minding their own business turned bad because crazy Nanny Bot was mean to me.


Edit - Atriox is former Covenant. That’s clear from his intro scene. Hence him betraying them. All the Banished are former Covenant. This is just the First Order. They’re in no way magically absolved of what they did as Covenant.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2022/11/26 01:22:14



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You don't have to like the Banished, you might however not want to extol the virtues of genocide and might want to calm down.
You went from relatively coherent discussion to ranting and raving in the space of a day. Chill out and go touch some grass for gods sake it's a bloody video game.
   
 
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