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How do!

Fog up? Inevitable, this thread is going to mention female Space Marines. But it is not, repeat, not a thread about such a thing.

It is however, a study of Genhancement, and Abhuman status.

As we know from three Primary Sources, Abhumans aren’t rare within The Imperium and Galaxy. And with the revelations of Leagues of Votann, we now have a strong suggestion that perhaps no Abhuman is the result of random mutation or natural evolution, but the result of deliberate, presumably informed genetic tinkering. Yes, even Beastmen and the wilder examples of Abhuman.

We also know that Astartes are but one example of Genhanced individuals. That is common, garden or baseline humans later souped up through science, surgery and just a bit of 40K magic. The Primarchs do not fall into this category, as at no point were they human. I’m not sure where Custards fall on this loose categorisation though. Perhaps someone can clarify.

Necromunda has House Goliath. Originally intended as strong, hardy but deliberately short lived workers, able to survive harsh environs for the good of the Hive. They’ve grown somewhat beyond those original parameters, as through quirk of evolutionary survival, a once barren slave stock can now reproduce in the old fashioned way - but also includes Vat Born and folk Genhanced from Human to Goliath. The in-universe Jury is out as to whether Goliaths have crossed the line into Abhuman status.

But we can see is Abhumans and the likes of House Goliath breed true. Ogryns birth Ogryns, Ratlings birth Ratlings, Goliaths birth Goliaths.

What isn’t clear is whether they can breed with baseline humans - and if so, what characteristics such offspring might have.

As for Astartes? Due to their lifestyle and lack of meaningful, normal interaction with the ladies, we don’t know for certain whether or not an Astartes is fertile.

We do however know that an Astartes isn’t just a human with extra gubbins squelched in. They’re changed on a genetic level, commonly described as post-human. As such, that might well affect their, y’know. Let’s be polite if a bit poncey and call them gametes. If it did? And provided the genetic change isn’t enough to cause speciation (where animals with common ancestors can no longer produce offspring), does this mean one could take Astartes Spangle, and a human egg, and produce some kind of hybrid?

And what if female Astartes or even Primarchs occurred? Provided it’s not an entirely new process which provides equivalent outcomes, would two such post-humans produce post-human offspring? Or are the genetic alterations not carried over?

Speculate with me Dakka!

Probably not. The process that marines go through seems to be a little more extensive and might have some warp nonsense involved.
Marines are barely human, imo, probably closer to golems considering how much you have to "mold" them. They go through a lot of modifications.

Making them infertile would probably be by design too because you don't want your race of genetically engineered killing machines to replenish their numbers themselves for security reasons.
Just look at the Orks.

Apparently Lucas the Trickster slept around a lot, but I don't know if it's a witcher sort of thing where he can have "fun" but nothing happens afterwards, or if it was meant to be before his surgery.
If it's the former then Fenrisian women must be made of sterner stuff.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
And with the revelations of Leagues of Votann, we now have a strong suggestion that perhaps no Abhuman is the result of random mutation or natural evolution, but the result of deliberate, presumably informed genetic tinkering. Yes, even Beastmen and the wilder examples of Abhuman.

You have a quotation from the Squat Handbook indicating this?

Quotation not right now as I’m out and about.

But.

The Kin all come from Cloneskein. They’re essentially all Designer Babies, and always have been.

Their early history is suitably obscured by the March of time, but the Kin freely accept as a First Truth that they’ve always been a clone race. And it’s confirmed the Cloneskeins existed since they were sent to mine the Galactic Core.

From there it does get a wee bit ambiguous. But certainly they’re not, and seemingly have never been, the result of baseline humans affected by different environs, with the changes driven by Natural Selection.

Given they are Abhumans, it’s therefore entirely possible (but by no means confirmed) that all Abhuman species aren’t the result of natural processes, but entirely artificial selection.

There is room for both to a certain degree. Ratlings for instance? Speculatively, their forebears could’ve been entirely baseline human who, in a time of famine, used Cloneskein tech or similar lineage of tech, to ensure future generations were smaller, thus requiring fewer daily calories. It’s a drastic solution to famine but kind of a valid one. Speculating further, that could explain their famed appetite (you can shrink the body, but the instinctual appetite level remains etc)

Ogryns similarly are believed to hail from former Penal Worlds, with their bulk and strength the result of higher gravity. That could be true. But again, such a drastic shift from Human Standard could be the result of deliberate tinkering.

Not in a “tcoch, do your own research whilst I flounce off” way, I strongly urge any fan of 40K background to pick up or otherwise read the Votann and Goliath books. They’re ace!

I'd heard the stuff about the Kin's origins, but I don't see a logical path for applying that to other abhumans.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

Given they are Abhumans, it’s therefore entirely possible (but by no means confirmed) that all Abhuman species aren’t the result of natural processes, but entirely artificial selection.

"Abhuman" is just a normative social/cultural classification. It's not like there's a single marker test that can be performed on a creature that determines the presence or absence of the abhuman particle. Equally, "baseline human" is already a generalization. So it would be just as logical to speculate that all baseline humans in the 40K setting are the product of forgotten genetic engineering. Or that Tyranids are.

The conclusion doesn't follow from the premises. What you're speculating is:

P1: Squats are genetically engineered.
P2: Squats are called abhumans.
C: All things called abhumans are genetically engineered.

Edit: to illustrate why that thinking is obviously false, consider the following argument constructed in the same way:

P1: Ogres are tall creatures.
P2: Ogres are stupid creatures.
C: All tall creatures are stupid creatures.

Kind of. Ish.

The timescales in play, when applied to evolution, really aren’t that long. From now to 40K is 39,000 years.

The existence of Cloneskeins confirms that, at least at one particular point, humanity had the capacity to engineer the basic human genetic code into forms better suited to other planets. That in itself is a better explanation than “it just happened” to my mind.

Of course, this is my opinion draped in somewhat informed speculation.

It also lines up with the whole ‘there are no wolves on Fenris’ thing from SW lore.

There’s heavy implication between Prospero Burns and Battle of the Fang that the native Fenrisiens were genetically modified back in the day pre-DAoT.

In the HH series they also bump into all sorts of humans with various modifications.

It may well be that pretty much every human world had some degree of modification and it’s just a question of whether the Imperium considers it substantial enough to make someone an abhuman (or even a non human as per the faction in the Rogal Dorn book).

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Kind of. Ish.

The timescales in play, when applied to evolution, really aren’t that long. From now to 40K is 39,000 years.

The existence of Cloneskeins confirms that, at least at one particular point, humanity had the capacity to engineer the basic human genetic code into forms better suited to other planets. That in itself is a better explanation than “it just happened” to my mind.

Of course, this is my opinion draped in somewhat informed speculation.

It might not require genetic tech though. Traditional selective breeding can radically alter the phenotype of an organism in a short timeframe, so some abhumans may well be generated that way.

I suspect the common abhumans (ogryn, ratlings, beastmen) likely have several independent origins that have resulted in phenotypes that are sufficiently similar to group together. For example, I think it is entirely possible that some ogryn evolved naturally, some from selective breeding programs, and others from specific genetic engineering. The Imperium probably doesn't care much and just puts the filthy abhumans to work as labourers and bullet shields.

 Haighus wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Kind of. Ish.

The timescales in play, when applied to evolution, really aren’t that long. From now to 40K is 39,000 years.

The existence of Cloneskeins confirms that, at least at one particular point, humanity had the capacity to engineer the basic human genetic code into forms better suited to other planets. That in itself is a better explanation than “it just happened” to my mind.

Of course, this is my opinion draped in somewhat informed speculation.

It might not require genetic tech though. Traditional selective breeding can radically alter the phenotype of an organism in a short timeframe, so some abhumans may well be generated that way.

I suspect the common abhumans (ogryn, ratlings, beastmen) likely have several independent origins that have resulted in phenotypes that are sufficiently similar to group together. For example, I think it is entirely possible that some ogryn evolved naturally, some from selective breeding programs, and others from specific genetic engineering. The Imperium probably doesn't care much and just puts the filthy abhumans to work as labourers and bullet shields.

Well, with this next bit if an actual scientist turns up I may end up with a whole load of egg on my face….but.

From my point of genuine ignorance? If a world has variant gravity enough that the Ratling or Ogryn form is the inevitable evolution? It seems extreme enough that you or I as baseline, bog standard humans couldn’t do much of anything. Because (and I’m just about, kind of, if you squint just right and the light is just so) smart enough to know that gravity changes a lot of things, including the air mixture at different elevations.

So given the short window of evolutionary opportunity and the extremes of Abhuman….ism? Yeah. Abhumanism feels right in my Brian. I just don’t see there being enough time and bog standard boring hooman tolerance for the like of Ogryn and Ratling Abhumans to be unassisted adaptations.

Perhaps, and this does seem perfectly possible, it was folk like us spending a generation or four in orbit sussing out the exact bits and bobs and additions and that to ensure the next generation could handle life planetside?

Because populating a new planet that doesn’t have at least roughly Earth standard conditions is gonna be deadly?

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

The timescales in play, when applied to evolution, really aren’t that long. From now to 40K is 39,000 years.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

So given the short window of evolutionary opportunity and the extremes of Abhuman….ism? Yeah. Abhumanism feels right in my Brian. I just don’t see there being enough time and bog standard boring hooman tolerance for the like of Ogryn and Ratling Abhumans to be unassisted adaptations.

I don't think there is a universal rule of evolution. It's a theory that applies to a closed system -- earth.

The vast majority of sanctioned Abhumans, Ogruns and Ratlings included, are almost certainly genetically compatible with normal humans. The offspring will just be a mix of the features, possibly with potential issues but still technically compatible. I imagine a human might find it difficult to carry an Ogrun child to full pregnancy safely, but the opposite is probably fine. Of course, Ogrun and human babies could be the same size when born and ogruns just grow bigger in the end, so it may not be an issue at all.

In many of the novels, it is clear that abhumans are very very common. To the extent that many people that might be considered normal humans are actually abhumans. In the Eisenhorn books one of his early friends was Arianhrod, a women from a planet with unusually tall and strong humans, minimum a full 2 meters in height, and deadly warriors. While not strictly seen as Abhumans, they were definitely divergent enough to where we could consider them a subspecies.

So really every human in 40k is divergent in some fashion. Its just a question of how much that determines if you are an abhuman. Just unusually tall or strong or short, just a slightly odd human. If you're oddly short/tall and have extremely divergent features like tails, different ears, etc... you are an Abhuman(as long as you are genetically stable and not wildly mutating).

The more "cosmetic" Abhumans are probably the result of deliberate tampering. Like the Felid abhumans. Ogruns and ratlings are said to be as a result of the high gravity of their homeworlds, so either deliberately changed to fit or naturally did so. But cat people are purely because some people wanted to be cat people.

 Grey Templar wrote:
The vast majority of sanctioned Abhumans, Ogruns and Ratlings included, are almost certainly genetically compatible with normal humans. The offspring will just be a mix of the features, possibly with potential issues but still technically compatible. I imagine a human might find it difficult to carry an Ogrun child to full pregnancy safely, but the opposite is probably fine. Of course, Ogrun and human babies could be the same size when born and ogruns just grow bigger in the end, so it may not be an issue at all.

In many of the novels, it is clear that abhumans are very very common. To the extent that many people that might be considered normal humans are actually abhumans. In the Eisenhorn books one of his early friends was Arianhrod, a women from a planet with unusually tall and strong humans, minimum a full 2 meters in height, and deadly warriors. While not strictly seen as Abhumans, they were definitely divergent enough to where we could consider them a subspecies.

So really every human in 40k is divergent in some fashion. Its just a question of how much that determines if you are an abhuman. Just unusually tall or strong or short, just a slightly odd human. If you're oddly short/tall and have extremely divergent features like tails, different ears, etc... you are an Abhuman(as long as you are genetically stable and not wildly mutating).

The more "cosmetic" Abhumans are probably the result of deliberate tampering. Like the Felid abhumans. Ogruns and ratlings are said to be as a result of the high gravity of their homeworlds, so either deliberately changed to fit or naturally did so. But cat people are purely because some people wanted to be cat people.

I am pretty sure the fish people are also deliberately crafted. Although there is at least an obvious survival benefit on ocean worlds.

 Altruizine wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

The timescales in play, when applied to evolution, really aren’t that long. From now to 40K is 39,000 years.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

So given the short window of evolutionary opportunity and the extremes of Abhuman….ism? Yeah. Abhumanism feels right in my Brian. I just don’t see there being enough time and bog standard boring hooman tolerance for the like of Ogryn and Ratling Abhumans to be unassisted adaptations.

I don't think there is a universal rule of evolution. It's a theory that applies to a closed system -- earth.

True, but my understanding is that even with a change to the environment, it still takes generations for it to occur, especially in such drastic ways as an Ogryn’s size?

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

 Altruizine wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

The timescales in play, when applied to evolution, really aren’t that long. From now to 40K is 39,000 years.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

So given the short window of evolutionary opportunity and the extremes of Abhuman….ism? Yeah. Abhumanism feels right in my Brian. I just don’t see there being enough time and bog standard boring hooman tolerance for the like of Ogryn and Ratling Abhumans to be unassisted adaptations.

I don't think there is a universal rule of evolution. It's a theory that applies to a closed system -- earth.

True, but my understanding is that even with a change to the environment, it still takes generations for it to occur, especially in such drastic ways as an Ogryn’s size?

That greatly depends on the extent of the evolutionary pressure. Mere morphological variations like gigantism or dwarfism are relatively quick to appear, especially if it allows the individuals to settle into a vacant ecological niche:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Island_gigantism
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insular_dwarfism

With artificial selection, speciation and morphological differences can appear at an even quicker rate. There are significant morphological differences between e.g. German Shepherds, Dachshunds or Pugs from ~150 years ago and from today easily recognizable on the earliest photographs of them compared to more recent pictures. Or take the extreme variety in breeds of horse, sheep or cattle that all come from a handful of common ancestor populations at most and have differentiated in the last 5k-10k years.

If you take into account that selection on colonized worlds probably was not 100% natural to begin with but was at least nudged along by selection of viable embryos and stuff like that, abhumanism seems not too out there.

To pick up a point asked earlier: Custodes, and Assassins and Gland Warriors for that matter, are essentially a gene-hanced baseline human, not an abhuman. The difference is creation by surgery rather than being 'born that way'.


The difference is that marines are a teenage human implanted with what's essentially mass produced extra organs, whilst custodes are infants who are given custom-designed personalised genetic enhancement at the cellular level.

Officio Assassins are similar, being far picker about 'raw materials' and using dark age archeotech enhancement methods, which is why a temple Assassin just looks like an ordinary person not an 8ft tall obviously enhanced killing machine despite being more dangerous.

Gland Warriors are about the lowest tier of this. The Elysian D99 and the Lostock 23rd got some basic surgical implants to cope with hostile environments better than a normal human and then thrown into battle en masse like normal guard....

Stability is the difference between Marie s and command abhumans. Abhumans will bread genetically stable abhumans. Not enough divergence between generations to be classed as dreaded mutants. Marines and assassins, if they can reproduce, will make humans, plain and boring. So whether it’s by design or evolution, the outcome has to be stable enough not to be condemned as a mutant and eradicated.

I’m not sure it is that clear cut.

Marines for certain are changed on a genetic level. Which suggests that, if they’re capable of reproduction, those changes would be part and parcel?

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I’m not sure it is that clear cut.

Marines for certain are changed on a genetic level. Which suggests that, if they’re capable of reproduction, those changes would be part and parcel?

I think the marines changes render them incapable of normal breeding otherwise the geneseed collection wouldn’t be required. You’d just let them go make the beast with two backs with folk. Changing someone’s genome doesn’t necessarily mean those changes are stable enough to be passed on in the gametes of individual (at least in 40k science as it’s portrayed, someone who has had gene therapy, say for cystic fibrosis, they don’t pass that genetic manipulation onto offspring).

Whether this stacks up with current genetic science is irrelevant, most 40k genetic manipulation stuff was established long before we had the understanding we have now, which is still changing.

Abhumans are considered stable compared to mutants. As in you get the same presentation in each generation. That clearly doesn’t happen with marines or assassins or things, either because they don’t pass on the changes or they can’t because they are rendered infertile.

I think the lack of similarly altered women is the biggest hurdle to “pure bred” Astartes babies. I mean, we’re all a bit of both our parents. So post-human and human may simply be incapable of getting an egg on the boil.

Apologies for the slightly childish language. This is done partly because it amuses me, but also to show I really don’t consider myself an expert, and don’t want anyone taking what I’m posting to heart.

I'd say the biggest hurdle is that becoming an Astartes removes all sexual function and reproductive ability.

I’m not persuaded that’s the case, but is instead a fan assumption.

Happy to be pointed to an educational source on the matter of course, as I can’t and don’t claim to be all-knowing.

Of course you're not.

You can google the countless reddit discussions about it if you want, "space + marine + sex + reddit" should give you what you need (including full excerpts of the puny thimbleful of sources that address it indirectly, which is as close as it's ever addressed).

But I mean, it's obvious. There's a VAST amount of fiction that's been produced to fill this universe out, and there isn't a single coherent example of a marine having sex. In addition, as designed lifeforms, it makes no sense for them to have retained sexual function, because it could only interfere with their design and duty. It makes no sense for them to have retained reproductive abilities for the same reason, and also because if those existed they'd be leveraged in some way. We know the Emperor/Imperium has no mercy or sentimentality on these sorts of issues and no interest in preserving a semblance of humanity.

And, frankly, if you're able to convince yourself of tenuous, easter egg-fueled theories like the Men of Gold were Microsoft and abhumans are worker clones you simply must also believe that the huge black hole of evidence for SM sex speaks for itself. You can't simultaneously accept a tiny slate of evidence for one theory and reject an enormous one for another theory. Most people who can't accept that are guilty of motivated reasoning that probably comes from a really really ugly place.

It’s more that no reports doesn’t equate to not being capable of.

It’s entirely possible that the psycho indoctrination deals with the impulse for How’s Your Father - but that doesn’t mean a Marine is then physically incapable.

If it could happen, we would have seen it.

No designer would choose to utilize psychoconditioning over a physical, permanent solution to the problem.

But is it a problem?

If as this thread is looking to explore, the genetic tinkering means a Marine can’t procreate with a human? There’s no problem there.

As for rumpy pumpy in general? They don’t exactly spend much time around Wimmins, do they? And even if they did? Still not exactly a problem.

Being infertile, not having it off and not having the necessary equipment are very different things.

I once read a well-composed fan theory that argued that the real Space Marine, i.e. the implants, were a parasitical organism that simply reproduces by infecting human host. Food for thought for sure

On the other hand, Homo Sapiens Astartes may be some sort of Klepton that co-reproduces with Homo Sapiens Sapiens, although not sexually per se...

If you can find that theory, I’d love to give it a read.

If marines can produce children it isn’t in fluff. Whether this issue is inability or disinclination it doesn’t matter I suppose. I am open to female marines being allowed and they exist in my custom chapter so in my head cannon they can’t reproduce because if they could they would and we needed all that progenoid collection and stuff.

I got very intrigued when reading a gaunts ghost novel where a child claimed his dad was a marine, only for it to be dismissed fantasy by a poor orphan child very quickly. It’s intriguing though, that marines could have normal human families dotted around the galaxy. I don’t think marine life would blend well with family life.

Well, in 40K, what passes for Normal Family Life? I suspect that’s gonna vary wildly from planet to planet?

Andykp wrote:
It’s intriguing though, that marines could have normal human families dotted around the galaxy. I don’t think marine life would blend well with family life.

It would probably look a lot like familiy life in feudal systems or the age of sail, with the nominal head of the family being absent for years or, in the imperial timescale, even decades per stretch, and the de facto rule of the estate delegated to the wife or wives, sons, relatives or other stewards. That of course would constitute a fascinating opportunity for all sorts of family drama, court politics and crime, from infidelity to corrupt stewards. And of course the existence of a functionally immortal, but extremely absent lord of estate is in itself a intriguing concept to explore. Think Ivanhoe/Robin Hood, Crusaders, Charles Dickens for inspiration for the shenanigans that could ensue. Would probably make a good Warhammer Crime novel, or even series of novels.