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Recently over on Reddit, the question was raised how Ogryns are treated in the Imperium. The question hinged on whether or not Ogryns have the chance to live a normal life akin to baseline humans, despite the latter being raised to hate the mutant, since Ogryns are loyal followers of the Imperial Cult in their simple way. Likewise, Black Library books that touch on the subjects were asked for.

It is a good question, and it would be interesting to see people's take on it. Here is my response:

Loyalty Met By Ingratitude: On Imperial Ogryns

If an author would write that Ogryns are treated by human societies in the Imperium, just as if they are baseline humans, then that is a surefire sign of bad writing.

The Imperium is meant to embody all the worst depravities of human history. Loyal Ogryns? Trampled upon. Spat upon. Enslaved and abused. Occasionally maybe even culled by pogroms. Humans who see the value in well treated Ogryns are rare exceptions, usually Imperial Guard veterans or enterprising individuals with an unusually independent mind. Imperial man will hate, fear and despise abhumans such as Ogryns. Look to Necromunda for a taste of Ogryn life under Imperial rule, where Ogryn slaves are commonplace, and where one gang in the system consist of rebelling Ogryn Slaves.

I remember a bland group effort at worldbuilding an Earth-like Imperial planet in 40k over on Warseer forums. In it, the participants had actually written that the world had an Ogryn population, and thus the baseline human population was tolerant of abhumans. That is not how you write to the spirit of the setting. If the world has an abhuman population, then that is always a reason for the baseline humans to hate and despise mutants all the more.

After all, it is rather difficult to hate something distant which you have never seen with your own eyes. Hating your neighbour, on the other hand, could not be easier.

Remember that even the most poor and miserable baseline humans, still has their hatred of filthy abhumans to cling to for some semblance of dignity in the cruel world they call home. Even the lowliest of baseline human underclass can sneer at a mutant underclass below them. The social standing of the dirtiest caste of baselines can still be better than that of shunned and even worse enslaved mutant scum. At least the baseline human paupers can find some comfort in their cultic-approved purity of blood, as true sons and daughters of Holy Terra, unlike those wicked abhumans who have deviated from the true template of sacred seed.

It is the fortyfirst millennium, and there is only man's hate for fellow man.

Its 40k - it varies and depends. You can talk about how you see and want to read the Imperium but there are a million worlds which do, by lore and canon 9scuh as it is) vary.

Don't forget that from the very beginning Ogryns pure and normally unyeilding faith in the Emperor has been noted and well regarded by hardline Imperials such as Commissars. If a Commissar is extolling the virtues of an Ogryn/s to their charges, coupled with the ability of a Ogryn to tear you apart - well their treatment is just as likely to be as good as that of other guard. It is also likely that their relatively simple nature is exploited!

They are also abhumans which aligns them closer to important and sanctioned mutants such as Naviagators rather than revilled like baseline mutants

Ogryns also apparently have their own worlds - or make up the largest proportion of population - whether they are goverened by BONE-headed Governors etc or humans is not to my knowledge stated?

On many worlds yes they will be abused and kept as slaves but so are their human peers but not all.

Here's the thing: on a world with both a human and Ogryn population, the humans might treat humans from another world, with unfamiliar accents/dialects/language, religious practices, etc worse than Ogryn, who while they see as less than are at least familiar.

I think it's fair to say that, as a rule, Ogryn are treated as subhuman. They are, in fact, of lesser intelligence than baseline humans, although they seem to have enormous personal loyalty. I would imagine that in the abstract people feel revulsion and fear of the other, while once they work with Ogryn, they quickly see their value. History has shown us time and again that how terribly bigoted people can carve out all kinds of exceptions when they want to.

So, I would imagine that Ogryn are probably segregaed, after all, you're not going to find an Ogyn terribly useful in a lot of jobs. However, in areas where Ogryn ARE useful, they are so useful that they are tolerated, which, just happens to be the sort of official viewpoint of the imperium.

Ogryn, ratlings, and squats are notable as stable mutations. the Imperium does distinguish them from unstable mutations, or worse, chaotically tinged mutations. Ratlings are also notorious thieves, and they are tolerated, so I'm guessing Ogryn, who are eager to please, are also tolerated in areas where they are useful.

That said, tolerance while useful is a very dangerous place to be, as a minority. Ogryn would probably be quickly scapegoated when there was failure, and seen as the targets of suspicion whenever bad things happen. That Ogryn are abused and even suffer pogroms is certain, but I guess it depends what kind of story you want to tell.

I thought they were tolerated because they are very useful for the right job and capable of being very loyal.

A bit like a farm animal

Once it’s no longer useful you put it down and you might not feel great about it but you don’t feel as bad as if an actual person had died

So they aren’t treated well for humans at all. But are they smart enough to be treated equally? Although if they were that dumb how come they’ve lasted so long. And how come you never see a female Ogryn? Are they reproducing with standard humans?

Blessed is the mind too small for doubt.

Ogryns are very well regarded within the Imperial Guard. Not only are they faultlessly loyal, they’re damned handy in a scrap. This endears them to Officer and Infantry alike.

Sure they’re reputed to smell Bloody Awful, but when a squad of them gets stuck into enemies threaten to overrun your line, it’s gonna be damned hard to say they’re not welcome.

Within the wider Imperium, it will however vary. As Necromunda demonstrates many become close to Sevitors, their massive and resilient frames, not to mention shocking strength useful for all sorts of industrial applications. At least those their limited intellect render them capable of.

This is best demonstrated in the Rogue Trader flavour texts. I’d need to through my copies to find them and give exact quotes. Yes the quotes reflect a childlike nature, but Ogryns aren’t exactly squandered as they’re a precious battlefield resource.

We can also put ourselves into the shoes of a Guardsman and ponder what we’d make of it.

As a Guardsman, many of your foes are going to be terrifying and powerful. Consider an Ork Nob. Ogryns can and will wreck a Nob, meeting brute strength with brute strength. An Ogryn can even give an Astartes are run for their money. Yes skill is a massive advantage to the Astartes, but the Ogryn can still physically over power one, or headbutt it unconscious.

In summary? Whilst an Imperial Citizen might not want to associate with Ogryns, you’d have to search fairly hard to find a Guardsman who doesn’t appreciate having the big lunks around,

mrFickle wrote:
A bit like a farm animal

I was avoiding comparing Ogryn to domestic animals because there's nothing flawed or broken about pets and livestock, they're just not people. Abhumans are people that are corrupted. That's the basis for the contempt.

So they aren’t treated well for humans at all.

the imperium of man is famously a place where nobody is treated well. There are certainly classes of people, and probably entire planets that are fairly comfortable, but the median human in 40k is living a miserable, wretched existence.

But are they smart enough to be treated equally? Although if they were that dumb how come they’ve lasted so long.

this is a super loaded question, because history is full of efforts to show that some people are less intelligent and thus less deserving of rights.

Ogryn intelligence seems to be low but they can speak, and they can aim well enough to justify giving them firearms. They seem to be intellectually limited, but not developmentally limited, meaning while they might struggle with problem solving or following complicated orders, they are capable of self care and routine tasks. Beyond that, we're getting into terrtory where a few lines of GW lore really run against what we know about intelligence.

And how come you never see a female Ogryn? Are they reproducing with standard humans?

Are we sure we haven't? Because Ogryn are a stable mutant, I think it's strongly implied that they are their own breeding population. Either way, when animals of varied size hybridize, it's usually a male of the smaller species and female of the larger, for fairly obvious reasons.

Also? Some literal personal canon, from my time portraying a Rogue Trader during a, erm, Rogue Trader RPG.

I ended up adopting an Ogryn, named Gronk, as my bodyguard (you would, wouldn’t you). Some Nobles we were transporting started getting uppity. I advised that my appointed Seneschal would listen to their concerns. I then appointed Gronk as said Seneschal.

Word kept, and uppity Nobles neatly stonewalled, I went about my business.

While many worlds would treat Ogrun terribly for being Abhumans, and they would definitely be 2nd class citizens, most worlds with populations would probably not have a huge amount of difference. The commoner is taught to abhor the Mutant, but Ogrun aren't strictly seen as mutants. They're abhumans, and the regular joe who constantly sees ogrun as he goes to work will probably just see them as fellow citizens.

For normal human civilians, Ogrun are just fellow citizens living in the underhive. Big oafs that are mostly useful for grunt work. The more ideologically concerned citizens of a more fanatical purist world, or that live in the upper hive, would have time for abhuman hatred, but not the lower citizens.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Polonius wrote:

And how come you never see a female Ogryn? Are they reproducing with standard humans?

Are we sure we haven't? Because Ogryn are a stable mutant, I think it's strongly implied that they are their own breeding population. Either way, when animals of varied size hybridize, it's usually a male of the smaller species and female of the larger, for fairly obvious reasons.

Exactly. Ogrun females look a lot like the males.

As for interreproduction, I would say they could breed with humans. It might be dangerous for a normal human to have a 1/2 ogrun baby since they might be too big. Though they could also not be, Ogrun babies could possibly be the same size as normal human infants when born. But 40k does have advanced medical technology, even for the lowest members of society, so a c-section being available isn't out of the question.

Considering that in the FW Taros and Vraks campaigns Ogryns were used for slave labour in the mines due to their raw strength, not very well.

The only hopes for Ogryns to have some kind of fair treatment is in the Guard. Where the commissar is nice to them in order to get them to do things.

Jarms48 wrote:
Considering that in the FW Taros and Vraks campaigns Ogryns were used for slave labour in the mines due to their raw strength, not very well.

Not to be that guy... but it's not like humans aren't used as slave labor in mines. Ogryn are going to be treated "worse" than baseline humans pretty much across the board, but many baseline humans have a pretty wretched existence to begin with. Heck, in some of hte absolute worst parts, Ogryn might be more valuable than baslines, because of their enhanced strength, stamina, and loyalty.

Again, our own society provides at least a bit of a window. Hatred of the other, coupled with dehumanization and contempt for those "less than," is a powerful technique to unite a society, or to provide a target for the middle classes that isn't the ruling elite. So, sure, you're an indentured factory worker pulling 18 hour shifts, sleeping at your workbench, and eating corpse starch, but at least you aren't a mutant/witch/abhuman/ganger/whatever.

Just to point out it has been said a few times that ogryns aren't one stable population, with different varieties of abhuman ogryns on different worlds, but all the unacceptable ones get genocide'd.

mrFickle wrote:
And how come you never see a female Ogryn?

Didn't the recent Ghazghkull novel ("Prophet of the Waaagh!") have a female Ogryn character?

beast_gts wrote:

mrFickle wrote:
And how come you never see a female Ogryn?

Didn't the recent Ghazghkull novel ("Prophet of the Waaagh!") have a female Ogryn character?

No idea - but the Necromunda story 'Spark of revolution' has a load of Ogryns basically enslaved in a factory run by Goliaths, and there's a few different female Ogryns in it.

I always assumed that in the Guard they were treated more like the stereotypical "burly simpleton" you see in a lot of media. So not necessarily subjected to violence in order to get them to jump through hoops, but given small praises and "rewards" for performing tasks.

Ultimately I don't imagine any punishments or abuses would amount to being clipped around the ear or fear of having their rewards taken away, as an Ogryn would be incredibly capable of just tearing you limb from limb if you upset them too much.

An Ogryn might be happy enough to serve regular human masters on the promise of the emperor's blessing, an extra packet of rations, or even just the reassurance that by killing the enemies of Mankind they're saving people and doing good.

As for actual slave labour in hives or manufactorums, then there's definitely scope for more physical abuse, or even minor lobotomisation to get rid of any aggression.

beast_gts wrote:

mrFickle wrote:
And how come you never see a female Ogryn?

Didn't the recent Ghazghkull novel ("Prophet of the Waaagh!") have a female Ogryn character?

It did ans she was a psyker trainee

if we go according to the darktide snippets of dialogue we get then it is pretty varied.

The vet is pretty chill with the ogryn as is the psyker. It's only the fanatic zealot that has some issues with the ogryn chars, which however don't take smak from the zealot, respectivly bully him from being a "shouty".

incidentally the Vet actually treats him kinda like an apprentice / young one, thanks him and or praises him. Whilest the ogryn pretty much looks at the vet with respect and adoration.

considering we could infer the stereotypical population of the IoM with the zealots representing the more religious fanatic segments whilest the vet represents the more general populus i'd assume that ogryns really just depend where they are. Certainly the vet distates the psyker.

It depends on which Zealot voice you use. One of the voices seems to kinda like the Ogrun

That's not unfair. The Only War RPG - where ogryn party members are an option - suggests opinions vary from 'basically officially tolerated mutants' that a ministorum priest would treat with contempt to a 'slow and simple child' who absolutely believes in 'da Empruh' and is prepared to risk their lives in a heartbeat because if that faith, even if they couldn't clearly articulate exactly WHAT they believe.

And yes, commissars leading ogryns very much end up being leaders rather than enforcers.

I’d still argue overall Ogryns receive better treatment compared to ten a Penny, imminently replaceable Hoomans, simply because when an Ogryn in the right tool for the job, you need them on-side.

They’ll enjoy a greater amount of rations, because they’re dangerous if hungry. Not necessarily better quality, but I can see some Regiments ensuring better quality, because a well fed big lunk is preferable to a poorly fed big lunk when it comes to smashing Ork Warlords into a splutchy pancake.

On the non-combat side of things, I still think we’d see some level of preferential treatment. If you’re a Foundry Boss, and you have Ogryn on staff (servitor or not), their sheer usefulness for heavy lifting and dangerous jobs will ensure they’re looked after, if for no other reason it’ll be a pain in the arse to replace them should you expend them carelessly. Quite possibly expensive, too.

I guess my overall point can be summed up quite succinctly.

There are very good reasons Ogryns, as an Abhuman strain, are tolerated where others are not.

It'll depend on the employment "situation" of the Ogryn. A conscripted soldier in the Emperor's armies might get good treatment (relatively) off the battlefield but a slave on a starship gunnery crew? Doubtful. Plus with Ogryn being what they are, how easy is it going to be to trick them into thinking horrible treatment is actually good because the Emperor says so?

Again we need to consider why the Ogryn is there in the first place. They’re not especially numerous in the Galaxy, or hired/selected for their mental prowess.

If you have Ogryns aboard ship, they’ll have a very specific role. One they’re there to do because of their prodigious strength and resilience. Even without specific augmentations, they’re not crew members you can just replace willy-nilly with a Hooman.

The command staff and overseer will know that. And to know it, is to be forced to respect it, even if you personally don’t like it/them.

Sure they take a lot of effort to train. But once trained, they’re simple enough to be happy in that task, provided they’re fed and watered and told The Emperor is pleased with them.

The other upside is being comparatively simple, once trained they’re described as being really quite personable. This is again shown particularly well in the Rogue Trader era, where the snippets always describing them in a positive light from the Officer’s point of view.

Yes but Ogryn are relatively simple-minded creatures. If a mine overseer can get away with feeding the Ogryn less by convincing it that the Emperor said so, a task that might not be difficult given how much faith the Ogryn place in Him, then they aren't getting treated better.
What about pay? Do Ogryn get paid like regular humans or is their natural subservience and obedience to the Emperor used as a way to get them to work without any actual compensation?
The worst way to think about it is basically "What would a Victorian factory worker do to a child worker?" and then apply that to Ogryn.

I still think you’re over looking the relative difficulty in replacing Ogryns.

Sure, a bad Overseer might decide to underfeed his Ogryn charges - but I suspect they’d soon learn that’s just a fool’s game. Especially if they themselves have an Overseer. I mean, someone is procuring the Ogryns, which means coin is changing hands to get hold of them.

Are Ogryns paid? That’s a bloody good question. Possibly, possibly not. I don’t think there’d be a set answer for that, just as a mere Hooman worker is far from guaranteed of actually being paid beyond bed and board.

I would say Ogryn aren't going to be super easy to replace like normal humans but they aren't that rare. There are Ogryn worlds and a lot of worlds have native Ogryn populations just through the movement of people over thousands of years. They might not get to wander around all happy and free, rather they are likely kept to a section of a given city or in a specific "reserve" but nonetheless the population of Ogryn is going to be significant enough that they can be replaced.

Still not readily replaceable in the grand scheme of things. And when an Ogryn is assigned a job or role? It’s because a job fo role only an Ogryn can do.

Squander them, and you’re gonna be in trouble, either because that job isn’t going to get done any other way (Ship Captain or other flavour of High Heedyin), or with whomever sourced and paid for the Ogryn and their associated training, because you just cost them money, and likely impacted whatever quota or task the Ogryn were expressly there to fulfil.

Plus, the sources all point to Ogryns being valued for their unique properties, with their drawbacks worked around.

Sadly I no longer have my Imperial Infantryman’s Uplifting Primer, so I can’t check what it says about Ogryns. But if memory serves it offers a positive view of them.

MDG, I think you are making the assumption that the Imperium is logical and rational and efficient. It is not. It is full of small-minded bigots and puritans, who will treat abhumans like gak because they deviate from His Pure Form whilst hypocritically espousing the virtues of the Astartes.

Some ogryn will be treated nicely, yes, but many will not even if it is less efficient, because hate cares not about efficiency.

I am also not convinced ogryn are that irreplaceable- generally they provide muscle, which can usually be replaced by either more humans or bionics. They are probably more efficient to house and feed than 5 humans, but efficiency is a secondary concern to damnation when the local preacher is giving another sermon about the degenerates and mutant scum, and to keep an eye on those abhuman fethers for they are one step away from being irredeemable.

Still isn’t matching up with canonical opinions though, where Ogryns (particular combat Ogryns) are well regarded.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Still isn’t matching up with canonical opinions though, where Ogryns (particular combat Ogryns) are well regarded.

I don't think that is surprising and I think it is likely that the Imperial Guard is where ogryns are routinely treated the best within the Imperium. However, I don't think it is a coincidence that Catachans, a famously anti-authoritarian culture, are explicitly called out as being more tolerant of ogryns than most Guard. That suggests that even within the Guard many do not like ogyns.

We also, canonically, know that civilian ogryns are enslaved on Necromunda and formerly on Vraks (before it was purged). The ogryn population on Monglor was sufficiently unhappy that it rebelled against the Imperium during the 3rd War for Armageddon. Civilian ogryns are probably horribly abused on the whole.

This is accurate to what we see in reality, where even quite racist soldiers could grow to respect and trust the specific ethnic troops they were fighting alongside, but often remained opposed to the ethnic groups as a whole. Humans are contradictory and often hypocritical, 40k is supposed to reflect the worst examples of that.

On the Catachans, that may be more respecting the Ogryn’s strength and fortitude, -plus their straight forward outlook.

Even where Ogryns are put to work, enslaved or not, are they really treated any worse than baseline humans? Because that’s the key here. If they’re treated just as awfully, then the answer to “how are Ogryns treated in that circumstance” is at worst “with indifference”, as they enjoy no particular perks or suffer particular injustices solely because they’re Abhuman,

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
On the Catachans, that may be more respecting the Ogryn’s strength and fortitude, -plus their straight forward outlook.

Even where Ogryns are put to work, enslaved or not, are they really treated any worse than baseline humans? Because that’s the key here. If they’re treated just as awfully, then the answer to “how are Ogryns treated in that circumstance” is at worst “with indifference”, as they enjoy no particular perks or suffer particular injustices solely because they’re Abhuman,

Agreed re. Catachans and similar deathworld veterans.

That is a good point re. compared to the baseline humans in the same area. On Necromunda, it appears ogryn are treated worse, being seen as equivalent to servitors despite having enough cognitive function to rebel and form gangs (unlike true servitors who are lobotomised). Unclear for other worlds, although it does appear that true slavery is (relatively) rare for humans, with them being stuck in conditions more like a grim-dark version of the Victorian working class and/or indentured servitude rather than outright chattel slavery. Of course, worlds openly slaving humans do exist, like Tachoman, and lawless places like underhives will have illicit slavery on worlds that otherwise do not practice it. Whereas most accounts of civilian ogryns have them as either a slave caste or feral tribes.