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Tried building a knight (imperial or chaos, doesn't matter) list for Nephilim games.

Looking at the rules, they make it impossible to take a titanic unit in anything less than 2000 point games, and the only units that can be placed are armigers/ war dogs.

The reasoning is, you get 3 CP for incursion games (1000 -1999 points) and it the BRB under the super-heavy detachment rules it lists that you can take titanic units only if you spend 6 CP. As you have only 3 CP to spend, no way you can do it.

The only partial workaround is that you use the single super heavy detachment Nephilim rule to take one titanic, but then It can't be the warlord - which means no traits and/or relics for it, which kinda defeats the purpose.

Am I reading this right?

Don't have time to elaborate right now but look at page 64 of the knights codex under knight lances.

ThulsaDoom wrote:

The only partial workaround is that you use the single super heavy detachment Nephilim rule to take one titanic, but then It can't be the warlord - which means no traits and/or relics for it, which kinda defeats the purpose.

That doesnt work.

If a player’s army includes one or more Super-heavy Auxiliary Detachments, they can change the Command Benefits of one of them to: ‘+3 Command points if the unit in this Detachment is not your WARLORD, but it is from the same Faction as your WARLORD’s Detachment, and that Faction is not CHAOS, IMPERIUM, AELDARI or TYRANIDS’.

Lets say you play CSM BL. How do you give the chaos knight the BL faction keyword ? It doesnt have <Legion>. Without BL keyword its not from the faction as your warlord, and you dont get +3 CP.

 KingGarland wrote:
Don't have time to elaborate right now but look at page 64 of the knights codex under knight lances.

So Knight/Traitoris lances are just a special form of the Super-heavy detachment (BRB page 250) or Super-heavy auxiliary detachments ( also BRB page 250) which enable you to have a CHARACTER and also gives back some CP, depending on how many units you have within it, and which are defined in their respective codices, but they are still SUPER HEAVY DETACHMENTS / SUPER HEAVY AUXILIARY DETACHMENTS as listed in the BRB, as can be read from the first bullet point of the KNIGHT LANCES rules (page 64):

"If this Detachment is a Super-heavy detachment, or if you are playing a Combat patrol battle /impossible in Nephilim as it doesn't exist/ and this Detachment is a Super-heavy auxiliary detachment..."

Also here is a note in the BRB on page 250, in the explanation of the Super-heavy detacment which states the following:

"If you only spend 3 Command points then you cannot include any TITANIC units in this Detachment"

So let's look at the second bullet point of the KNIGHT LANCES rule on page 64 of the Imperial knights codex:

"If this Detachment contains between 1 and 2 QUESTORIS-CLASS models...this Detachment's Command Benefits are changed to: '+3 Command points if your WARLORD is part of this Detachment' "

So, in a 1000 point Incurion game, according to Nephilim rules, you get 3 CP. As you CAN'T ADD A TITANIC UNIT UNLESS YOU SPEND 6 CP (as is written in the BRB on page 250) how do you find the extra CP, pray tell?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 p5freak wrote:

ThulsaDoom wrote:

The only partial workaround is that you use the single super heavy detachment Nephilim rule to take one titanic, but then It can't be the warlord - which means no traits and/or relics for it, which kinda defeats the purpose.

That doesnt work.

If a player’s army includes one or more Super-heavy Auxiliary Detachments, they can change the Command Benefits of one of them to: ‘+3 Command points if the unit in this Detachment is not your WARLORD, but it is from the same Faction as your WARLORD’s Detachment, and that Faction is not CHAOS, IMPERIUM, AELDARI or TYRANIDS’.

Lets say you play CSM BL. How do you give the chaos knight the BL faction keyword ? It doesnt have <Legion>. Without BL keyword its not from the faction as your warlord, and you dont get +3 CP.

But I'm not playing CSM, playing clean Chaos Knights - so for example I select three War dogs for a Super-heavy detachment, all of them in a slot of their own, and one additional Super-heavy auxiliary detachment which has a single Abhorrent class. As the War dog detachment contains three Lords of war, it is a legitimate detachment, that according to the Traitoris lances rules refunds me the 3CP invested in them because one of the War dogs is the Warlord. On the side, the Abhorrent class uses the Nephilim rule for auxiliary Super-heavy detachments, and while it costs 3 CP, it also grants 3 CP as the Abhorrent is not the warlord - for a total of 0 CP.

The keyword that all units have is Chaos knights so it is also legit.

Summary:

Start with 3 CP, as is the rule for Nephilim incursion games.

3 War dogs in super-heavy detachment cost 3 CP, and refund 3 CP if the warlord is one of them.

1 Abhorrent in a super heavy auxiliary detachment costs 3 CP and also refunds 3 CP if it isn't the warlord.

Trying to get the Abhorrent to be the warlord:

Start with 3 CP, as is the rule for Nephilim incursion games.

To add an Abhorrent I need to spend 6 CP (as is written in the BRB page 250). As I only have 3 CP it is impossible.

The key point I am questioning here is that the TRAITORIS/KNIGHT LANCES follow the rule listed in the Super-heavy detachments as listed in the BRB page 250, as they are themselves such detachments.
If they do not follow that rule: " If you only spend 3 Command points then you cannot include any TITANIC units in this detachment" please let me know where it specifically says so.

Or, if the argument is that they AREN'T ACTUALLY SUPER-HEAVY DETACHMENTS, where can I find the composition graph for them (you know, the boxes for all the detachments that can be found in the BRB)?

Looks like you're correct.

GW have made it impossible to add TITANIC units in a Nephilim rules Super-Heavy Detachment in an Incursion sized battle because you don't have enough CP to buy the SHD, if you want one of those units to be the Warlord.

MadSpy wrote:
Looks like you're correct.

GW have made it impossible to add TITANIC units in a Nephilim rules Super-Heavy Detachment in an Incursion sized battle because you don't have enough CP to buy the SHD, if you want one of those units to be the Warlord.

So that means I have to apologize for my past three games as I made an illegal list...

Seems to me that it is legal to place a Warlord Titanic Knight into a SHAD, which changes the Command Benefit to +3 Command Points due to the Knight Lance rule. You can then select a second detachment as a second SHAD Knight detachment that benefits from the Nephilim rule to gain +3 Command Points. You now have either 2 Titanic Knights or 1 Titanic Knight and 2 Arimgers for 0 Command Point Cost.

Alternatively, after selecting a Warlord Titanic Knight into a SHAD (net 0 Command Points due to Knight Lance), you can spend your 3 remaining Command Points to purchase a SHD of Armigers for 3 Command Points. This leaves you with 1 Titanic Knight and 3-6 Armigers.

Note that as a Imperial Knights detachment, the SHAD still gains all detachment abilities.

 alextroy wrote:
Seems to me that it is legal to place a Warlord Titanic Knight into a SHAD, which changes the Command Benefit to +3 Command Points due to the Knight Lance rule. You can then select a second detachment as a second SHAD Knight detachment that benefits from the Nephilim rule to gain +3 Command Points. You now have either 2 Titanic Knights or 1 Titanic Knight and 2 Arimgers for 0 Command Point Cost.

Alternatively, after selecting a Warlord Titanic Knight into a SHAD (net 0 Command Points due to Knight Lance), you can spend your 3 remaining Command Points to purchase a SHD of Armigers for 3 Command Points. This leaves you with 1 Titanic Knight and 3-6 Armigers.

Note that as a Imperial Knights detachment, the SHAD still gains all detachment abilities.

There is a BUT: "...or if you are playing a combat patrol battle and this Detachment is a Super-heavy auxiliary Detachment, select one ARMIGER CLASS, QUESTORIS CLASS or DOMINUS CLASS model in this Detachment. That model gains the CHARACTER KEYWORD."

As there is no Combat patrol battle in Nephilim, that first Knight doesn't get the CHARACTER keyword - so even though he can be a warlord he can't take traits or relics, which is kinda the main issue.

So in any case, it is better to have Armigers (one of them warlord) in a SHD, and then the addition of a Nephilim-rule used SHAD for one Titanic, because the option you listed leaves you with 0 CP.

 alextroy wrote:
Note that as a Imperial Knights detachment, the SHAD still gains all detachment abilities.

Not quite true. You will not get household traditions on the large knight because you don't have 3+ models in the detachment, and you won't get the CHARACTER keyword (unless you use the extra WLT stratagem) or eligibility for relics/WLTs because a SHAD only counts in a Combat Patrol game.

Technically, the SHAD gains all the detachment abilities, but some of them don’t have any function if the detachment doesn’t have specific units in them.

So we are both right, me in rules and you in functionality.

MadSpy wrote:
Looks like you're correct.

GW have made it impossible to add TITANIC units in a Nephilim rules Super-Heavy Detachment in an Incursion sized battle because you don't have enough CP to buy the SHD, if you want one of those units to be the Warlord.

With other rules it doesnt' matter do you do X or Y first. CP result is same. Why would it be different here?

Aka it's end result that matters.

3-6+3=0 same as 3+3-6=0

tneva82 wrote:

MadSpy wrote:
Looks like you're correct.

GW have made it impossible to add TITANIC units in a Nephilim rules Super-Heavy Detachment in an Incursion sized battle because you don't have enough CP to buy the SHD, if you want one of those units to be the Warlord.

With other rules it doesnt' matter do you do X or Y first. CP result is same. Why would it be different here?

Aka it's end result that matters.

3-6+3=0 same as 3+3-6=0

Because you can't spend something you don't have. If you have $10 in your pocket and want to buy something from me that costs $20 I don't care if you're getting another $10 next month, I want the full $20 now and you don't have it.

Notably, the text for adding detachments has specific language that requires you to have the CP to add the detachment before you can get the Command Effects of the detachment. It even says if you can't afford the detachment you can't add it.