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Made in gb
Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon






How do!

So it’ll be at least a week before us Dakkanauts get our mitts on the first book, and even longerer until we’ve seen the full picture. But out there in youtube land, some have been hands on and offered potted versions of the you folding plot.

The one I watched was by Arbitrator Ian, and it’s a pretty decent vid. And here it is.




In short. It’s Quest for the McGuffin as I think most expected. Me, I’m intrigued. But also half expecting the opening up thing to be The Lion’s bedroom. Just because a Daemon wants something and is playing nice, doesn’t mean you’re gonna like That Thing.

Given what we know of Vashtorr and it’s ongoing ascendancy, that does make sense. We’re told it’s empowered by innovation and creativity. If Chaos took over, a chunk of that goes away in favour of ritual and rote. But, give The Imperium Nihilus more of a fighting chance? You rebalance the ledger somewhat, force all sides to adapt and yes, innovate, however slow and comparatively stagnant Imperial Tech is, it does still innovate, sometimes on a massive scale (such as the Primaris project).

   
Made in de
Servoarm Flailing Magos




Germany

It looks promising for sure.

That stuff about the prophecy could very well fit the rumoured return of the Lion, the symbolism is pretty on the nose about it. Circles within circles, ancient knight crying in the ashes of his victory...
   
Made in gb
Automated Rubric Marine of Tzeentch




dorset

well, for those who prefer the written form, the goonhammer review is here:
https://www.goonhammer.com/arks-of-omen-abaddon-the-goonhammer-review/

so, lorewise, this would be the first time in recent 40K lore that they have featured a Non-Great Four aligned demonic entity, at least to my knowledge. Vashtorr is not a deamon prince, but a effectively a Lesser Chaos God. thats rather intresting.

To be a man in such times is to be one amongst untold billions. It is to live in the cruelest and most bloody regime imaginable. These are the tales of those times. Forget the power of technology and science, for so much has been forgotten, never to be relearned. Forget the promise of progress and understanding, for in the grim dark future there is only war. There is no peace amongst the stars, only an eternity of carnage and slaughter, and the laughter of thirsting gods.

Coven of XVth 2000pts
The Blades of Ruin 2,000pts Watch Company Rho 1650pts
 
   
Made in gb
Leader of the Sept







The pedant in me wonders what the difference is

Please excuse any spelling errors. I use a tablet frequently and software keyboards are a pain!

Terranwing - w3;d1;l1
51st Dunedinw2;d0;l0
Cadre Coronal Afterglow w1;d0;l0 
   
Made in gb
Automated Rubric Marine of Tzeentch




dorset

 Flinty wrote:
The pedant in me wonders what the difference is


between vashtorr and the other deamons? at once, very little and quite a bit.

very little, in that his interactions with realspace are basically though the same sets of limits as the godly deamons, needing summons and other tricks to be in it.

but quite a bit, as godly deamons are, to a large extent, reflections of their God, all extremely alike in mindset and continence, whereas Vashtorr is independant, aligned to his own goals, and not a reflection of one of the Gods.

apprantly, hes the guy who runs the newly discribed Soul Forges of the warp, the ones that make Demon Engines like Skull Cannons, Soul Grinders and suchlike. Hes a arms dealer to the Great Four, trying to leverage his position into turning the Four into Five. I don't think he'll succeed, but thats his plan.

To be a man in such times is to be one amongst untold billions. It is to live in the cruelest and most bloody regime imaginable. These are the tales of those times. Forget the power of technology and science, for so much has been forgotten, never to be relearned. Forget the promise of progress and understanding, for in the grim dark future there is only war. There is no peace amongst the stars, only an eternity of carnage and slaughter, and the laughter of thirsting gods.

Coven of XVth 2000pts
The Blades of Ruin 2,000pts Watch Company Rho 1650pts
 
   
Made in gb
Preparing the Invasion of Terra






Being master of the Soul Forge is an interesting thing because none of the Four are allowed to have any stake in running it. A Warpsmith tried to take it over once and its one of the few instances of the Pantheon working together to take it back and ensure its neutrality in the Great Game.
If it suddenly becomes the home turf of another big player in the Game, that would be a significant shakeup for the Dark Gods.
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




Sounds like Vashtorr would be perfect to take on the role of the Machine God (or its avatar) for the Dark Mechanicum.
   
Made in gb
Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon






Seems Fulgrim is confirmed to be knocking around the Imperium Nihilus, much to Abaddon’s chagrin. Probably because he seems to be doing whatever he wants.



   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





From what Ive seen they are moving the setting a position where Abbadon is the defacto ruler of the dark imperium and that will be the setting for quite a long time. Although portages as a baddy the irony will be that both halves of the imperium as the same, he’ll for those that don’t comply, everyone else gets left alone as long as they meet their quotas.

The interesting bit for Abbadon will be that he will also be trying not to let the big 4 take over real space.
   
Made in gb
Leader of the Sept







Fair points, but it seems a bit academic in terms of power level descriptions between a Daemon Prince and a lesser Chaos god. Is the only real distinction that Daemon Princes are elevated mortals, while Vashtorr was a warp entitiy from the start?


Please excuse any spelling errors. I use a tablet frequently and software keyboards are a pain!

Terranwing - w3;d1;l1
51st Dunedinw2;d0;l0
Cadre Coronal Afterglow w1;d0;l0 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





I think vashtor will be the result of some crazy experiment by the dark mech to make a powerful demon engine and they got a lot more than they bargained for
   
Made in gb
Preparing the Invasion of Terra






I mean he isn't though. His origins have already been detailed in that he represents the unchecked advance of technology as a form of Warp diety.
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka







Edited for rule 1

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/01/12 09:25:09


2021-4 Plog - Here we go again... - my fifth attempt at a Dakka PLOG

My Pile of Potential - updates ongoing...

Gamgee on Tau Players wrote:we all kill cats and sell our own families to the devil and eat live puppies.


 Kanluwen wrote:
This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.

Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army...

tneva82 wrote:
You aren't even trying ty pretend for honest arqument. Open bad faith trolling.
- No reason to keep this here, unless people want to use it for something... 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Well I was just speculating cos I’d clearly missed that. But being that he represent the unchecked advancement of technology doesn’t mean he didn’t manifest due to a specific event or set of activities. Slaneesh was born by the actions of the eldar. Why would vashtorr have some similar kind of birth?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/01/12 09:26:00


 
   
Made in gb
Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon






Thing is, he’s not manifested yet. Not as a God.

But he does seem to be an interesting case study in how an entity becomes a God in 40K.

Going right back to Realms of Chaos, there are mentions of independent Daemons and Lesser Gods, with the line between the two being blurred, as it’s just a matter of how much power they hold. The implication of course is all the Gods started off as a fart in a jar Daemon, only to become swollen with power from specific emotions common across the Galaxy (ref Orgo and F’toomsh in The Young One’s, and their likelihood of being summoned, I guess)

So Vashtorr falls into that quite neatly. I’m certainly keen to read his background, hoping for another “square out the park” like we got with Leagues of Votann.

   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Malice is still a thing I believe? Just never talked about.

Wouldn’t it be cool if vashtorr was actually the demon Prince evolution of one of the missing primarchs
   
Made in de
Servoarm Flailing Magos




Germany

mrFickle wrote:


Well I was just speculating cos I’d clearly missed that. But being that he represent the unchecked advancement of technology doesn’t mean he didn’t manifest due to a specific event or set of activities. Slaneesh was born by the actions of the eldar. Why would vashtorr have some similar kind of birth?


If i had to guess i'd say he'll encroach on some of the territory that used to be a minor aspect of Khorne back in the earlier editions: The 'science' of war and murder, basically, all the thing humans cunningly built and invented over the millenia to better kill and maim their contemporaries. Stuff like cannons, shrapnel, mines, machine guns and all that. In the older editions of Epic Khorne had an interesting menagerie of demon engines that incorporated a lot of these. Science and Engineering turned to destructive and evil purposes, in essence.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Going right back to Realms of Chaos, there are mentions of independent Daemons and Lesser Gods, with the line between the two being blurred, as it’s just a matter of how much power they hold. The implication of course is all the Gods started off as a fart in a jar Daemon, only to become swollen with power from specific emotions common across the Galaxy (ref Orgo and F’toomsh in The Young One’s, and their likelihood of being summoned, I guess)


A more recent example of a thing somewhere between Demon and God would be Drach'nyen as it was presented in Master of Mankind - basically the demi-god of the first intentional murder among men.

mrFickle wrote:
Malice is still a thing I believe? Just never talked about.

Wouldn’t it be cool if vashtorr was actually the demon Prince evolution of one of the missing primarchs


Yeah, Malal/Malice pops up about every decade in some side project, mainly as a bone thrown to the old farts Zuvassin, an even lesser known minor deity from back when, recently had a cameo appearance in the boxed game Silver Tower and a novel as well. Necoho remains AWOL, just like it would have liked it




This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2023/01/12 09:26:36


 
   
Made in gb
Leader of the Sept







Tsagualsa wrote:

If i had to guess i'd say he'll encroach on some of the territory that used to be a minor aspect of Khorne back in the earlier editions: The 'science' of war and murder, basically, all the thing humans cunningly built and invented over the millenia to better kill and maim their contemporaries. Stuff like cannons, shrapnel, mines, machine guns and all that. In the older editions of Epic Khorne had an interesting menagerie of demon engines that incorporated a lot of these. Science and Engineering turned to destructive and evil purposes, in essence.



Also encroaches on Tzeench through the powerful change brought on by technological development, Slaanesh due to the search for excellence fe in technical crafting. I can’t think of a Nurgle link off the top of my head, but technical development does lead to things like Crispr.

Please excuse any spelling errors. I use a tablet frequently and software keyboards are a pain!

Terranwing - w3;d1;l1
51st Dunedinw2;d0;l0
Cadre Coronal Afterglow w1;d0;l0 
   
Made in gb
Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon






 Flinty wrote:
Tsagualsa wrote:

If i had to guess i'd say he'll encroach on some of the territory that used to be a minor aspect of Khorne back in the earlier editions: The 'science' of war and murder, basically, all the thing humans cunningly built and invented over the millenia to better kill and maim their contemporaries. Stuff like cannons, shrapnel, mines, machine guns and all that. In the older editions of Epic Khorne had an interesting menagerie of demon engines that incorporated a lot of these. Science and Engineering turned to destructive and evil purposes, in essence.



Also encroaches on Tzeench through the powerful change brought on by technological development, Slaanesh due to the search for excellence fe in technical crafting. I can’t think of a Nurgle link off the top of my head, but technical development does lead to things like Crispr.


Which might explain how he’s not ascended to Godhood just yet. If a device of war is invented? Most of that goes to Khorne as God of war and murder and saying “Boo!” to other people’s Grannies - but Vashtorr still got his scraps of power. Same for the other Gods, with relative scraps being left for Vashtorr to scoff.

This is reflected in the overall threat of Slaanesh to its brothers. Any act of excess or pride leaves at least a morsel on Slaanesh’s table, even if the five course meal went elsewhere.

   
Made in gb
Junior Officer with Laspistol





The Shire(s)

 Flinty wrote:
Tsagualsa wrote:

If i had to guess i'd say he'll encroach on some of the territory that used to be a minor aspect of Khorne back in the earlier editions: The 'science' of war and murder, basically, all the thing humans cunningly built and invented over the millenia to better kill and maim their contemporaries. Stuff like cannons, shrapnel, mines, machine guns and all that. In the older editions of Epic Khorne had an interesting menagerie of demon engines that incorporated a lot of these. Science and Engineering turned to destructive and evil purposes, in essence.



Also encroaches on Tzeench through the powerful change brought on by technological development, Slaanesh due to the search for excellence fe in technical crafting. I can’t think of a Nurgle link off the top of my head, but technical development does lead to things like Crispr.

Hmmm, Nurgle could overlap through the development of bio, chemical, and cyber weapons like computer viruses and phosphex equipment.

 ChargerIIC wrote:
If algae farm paste with a little bit of your grandfather in it isn't Grimdark I don't know what is.
 
   
Made in de
Servoarm Flailing Magos




Germany

 Haighus wrote:
 Flinty wrote:
Tsagualsa wrote:

If i had to guess i'd say he'll encroach on some of the territory that used to be a minor aspect of Khorne back in the earlier editions: The 'science' of war and murder, basically, all the thing humans cunningly built and invented over the millenia to better kill and maim their contemporaries. Stuff like cannons, shrapnel, mines, machine guns and all that. In the older editions of Epic Khorne had an interesting menagerie of demon engines that incorporated a lot of these. Science and Engineering turned to destructive and evil purposes, in essence.



Also encroaches on Tzeench through the powerful change brought on by technological development, Slaanesh due to the search for excellence fe in technical crafting. I can’t think of a Nurgle link off the top of my head, but technical development does lead to things like Crispr.

Hmmm, Nurgle could overlap through the development of bio, chemical, and cyber weapons like computer viruses and phosphex equipment.


Nurgle would feel right at home in the dehumanization and hopelessness of industrialized warfare. The trenches of WW1 are quintessentially nurglish.
   
Made in gb
Leader of the Sept







A threat to Nurgle as well though, in the form of development of cures. Makes me think of Good Omens, and how Plague is replaced by Pollution as one of the 4 Horsepersons

Please excuse any spelling errors. I use a tablet frequently and software keyboards are a pain!

Terranwing - w3;d1;l1
51st Dunedinw2;d0;l0
Cadre Coronal Afterglow w1;d0;l0 
   
Made in gb
Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon






Strictly speaking, any life preserving tech would be feeding Nurgle, as he’s as much a God of Life as plague. Indeed, his fondness for bacteria and viruses and that stems from having no “ranking” of lives. If one of us dies, and billions of bacteria thrive on our corpse, it’s a no-Brainer to him.

There’s a word eluding me. Like profundity, but about proliferation of life and frankly it’s pissing me off!

   
Made in de
Servoarm Flailing Magos




Germany

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Strictly speaking, any life preserving tech would be feeding Nurgle, as he’s as much a God of Life as plague. Indeed, his fondness for bacteria and viruses and that stems from having no “ranking” of lives. If one of us dies, and billions of bacteria thrive on our corpse, it’s a no-Brainer to him.

There’s a word eluding me. Like profundity, but about proliferation of life and frankly it’s pissing me off!


Fecundity?
   
Made in gb
Leader of the Sept







Gesundheit

Please excuse any spelling errors. I use a tablet frequently and software keyboards are a pain!

Terranwing - w3;d1;l1
51st Dunedinw2;d0;l0
Cadre Coronal Afterglow w1;d0;l0 
   
Made in au
Battlewagon Driver with Charged Engine





Plot twist! Vashtorr is actually the ork god Bork! who just happens to be the more mek inclined of the ork gods!
   
Made in de
Servoarm Flailing Magos




Germany

cody.d. wrote:
Plot twist! Vashtorr is actually the ork god Bork! who just happens to be the more mek inclined of the ork gods!


Legend has it that he was imprisoned by the Emperor on Eye's Land for some time before the great crusade
   
Made in gb
Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon






Tsagualsa wrote:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Strictly speaking, any life preserving tech would be feeding Nurgle, as he’s as much a God of Life as plague. Indeed, his fondness for bacteria and viruses and that stems from having no “ranking” of lives. If one of us dies, and billions of bacteria thrive on our corpse, it’s a no-Brainer to him.

There’s a word eluding me. Like profundity, but about proliferation of life and frankly it’s pissing me off!


Fecundity?


Yes! Thank you!

I swear, every time I was trying to recall it, Mr Brain suggested profundity, was told no, then suggested it again.

But yes. Nurgle is about fecundity and rampant life - he just sees no difference between simple and complex life, and will go with fecundity every time. But even so, if it’s Clone Tech, that does feed Nurgle as it’s still new life being born, outside of the usual natural order.

If memory serves from the livestream, it’s less the existence of technology that feeds Vashtorr, and more innovation. So if I designed say, a new Lasgun? That design process is his smorgasbord, with each Lasgun then produced according to the template being, I dunno, a mote of flour dust. Nourishment, but to a much lesser individual degree. But a Jokaero adapting one of said Lasguns, is a sandwich.

Hence I’m pretty sure he’s playing Abaddon for a fool. A final victory of Chaos, before he ascends, would, arguably, cause galactic anarchy, replacing advancement with superstition, ritual and rote. And that constant, constant trickle he gets now is still moving him closer to Godhood than a complete arrest or lessening of that trickle.

And it’s not so much The Imperium he’s sneakily preserving for sake of his dinner table, but the current status quo.

   
Made in de
Servoarm Flailing Magos




Germany

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Tsagualsa wrote:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Strictly speaking, any life preserving tech would be feeding Nurgle, as he’s as much a God of Life as plague. Indeed, his fondness for bacteria and viruses and that stems from having no “ranking” of lives. If one of us dies, and billions of bacteria thrive on our corpse, it’s a no-Brainer to him.

There’s a word eluding me. Like profundity, but about proliferation of life and frankly it’s pissing me off!


Fecundity?


Yes! Thank you!

I swear, every time I was trying to recall it, Mr Brain suggested profundity, was told no, then suggested it again.

But yes. Nurgle is about fecundity and rampant life - he just sees no difference between simple and complex life, and will go with fecundity every time. But even so, if it’s Clone Tech, that does feed Nurgle as it’s still new life being born, outside of the usual natural order.

If memory serves from the livestream, it’s less the existence of technology that feeds Vashtorr, and more innovation. So if I designed say, a new Lasgun? That design process is his smorgasbord, with each Lasgun then produced according to the template being, I dunno, a mote of flour dust. Nourishment, but to a much lesser individual degree. But a Jokaero adapting one of said Lasguns, is a sandwich.

Hence I’m pretty sure he’s playing Abaddon for a fool. A final victory of Chaos, before he ascends, would, arguably, cause galactic anarchy, replacing advancement with superstition, ritual and rote. And that constant, constant trickle he gets now is still moving him closer to Godhood than a complete arrest or lessening of that trickle.

And it’s not so much The Imperium he’s sneakily preserving for sake of his dinner table, but the current status quo.


Vasthorr could, for the near future, end up being something like an Evil Merlin to Abaddon as Evil Arthur... especially if the Lion returns, who also has a lot of Arthurian motives going on, and Arthurian Legend / Dark Ages britannia is one way to look at the Imperium Nihilus. For added tin foil, don't limit yourself to the classics of Arthurian literature, but include the New Age stuff like Mists of Avalon as well, which is chock-full of faux celtic religion and myth, which of course nicely ties into the Eldar background in general and Exodites in particular... hmmm...
   
Made in gb
Infiltrating Broodlord





London

I quite like Vasthorr as an addition. I think it's generally good to reflect the range of Chaos as a bit wider than the four main gods.There are no doubt scores of minor entities that would quite like to ascend, and it's cool to introduce one.

I'd really like to see how he would interact with Void Dragon shards too, that would be a cool story.

Generally the fluff additions for AOO seem *way* better than Psychic Awakening at this point.

I think the key is not so much the return of the Lion (who is a point in the prophecy but not the end), but is likely some mcguffin to push past the Golden Throne for a warp invasion of Terra (which means the key will never actually get built, but it's a decent threat).
   
 
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