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Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




I haven't played for years. I left a long time ago because of how GW treated my army. I played CSM and Daemons. But after that WD that buffed flamers/screamers just to sell some models; Only to nerf them to oblivion right after. It left a really bad taste in my mouth.

I also hated the change where I had to roll on a million random charts before every battel, and during every fight depending. They added so much RNG. It was no longer an army you build prior to the game. But is built randomly when you play. It mad my matches take so much longer... Had to spend 10 mins before each match rolling on charts :/ And it pissed me off so I quit.

My question is does chaos still have a million random charts used for upgrades? Or are they back to how they used to be; and I can actually pick a psychic power per say? Instead of having to roll for one at the start of every battle. Because I might come back if I can pick my upgrades again. Otherwise I think I will just stay away still. I hated that change so much!!!

If it is still this way I think I will finally just put my army up on ebay instead. I don't feel like holding on to my models anymore. Especially if I ain't going to be using them. I think it was 2017ish when I stopped playing. Almost 6 years ago. Anyways those models are just collecting dust and probable need a new home. As GW just seems to hate me, or at the very least did everything they could to make me hate them.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2023/01/19 21:21:07


 
   
Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Cardiff

Well. This thread will end well.

 Stormonu wrote:
For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
 
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




Ehh end well? From the looks of it... It isn't even going to get started. Doesn't look like anyone is willing to answer the questions. Which says a lot!
   
Made in us
Sneaky Sniper Drone




Pacific Northwest

I always thought those "roll to select wargear/powers from a chart" were optional if both players agree.

Dakka's Dive-In is the only place you'll hear what's really going on in the underhive. Sure, the amasec is more watery than a T'au boarding party but they can grill a mean groxburger. Just watch for the occasional ratling put through a window and you'll be alright.
It's classier than that gentleman's club for abhumans, at least.
- Caiphas Cain, probably

 
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut





So...

The game itself is fairly different from what it was- subfactions all have special rules now, and a lot of folks feel that the some of the CSM subfaction abilities either don't match the fluff, or are objectively bad.

Wargear isn't as customizable now as it was.

The trend of things being superpowered on release and then getting nerfed still happens.

But on the plus side, you do pick your psychic instead of generating them randomly, and I haven't seen a whole lot of random tables.
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare






I don't know how the Chaos armies operate these days in terms of RNGs, but I do feel the need to express my continuing dissapointment at the splitting up of Chaos Space Marines into numerous individual armies, with each army book having a $50 price point. And also the feeling of somehow having more books but fewer options . . .

I've been spending time with the free, online ruleset Grimdark Future, by One Page Rules. If you can convince anyone else to try it out with you I'd give it a go. It's got some shortcomings, but it's a great way to get models on the table for a compelling game.

https://onepagerules.com/portfolio/grimdark-future/

Caveat: Haven't tried the Chaos faction yet, just Eldar, Orks, Space Marines and Nids.


And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in tw
Fresh-Faced New User




i also recommend the 'grimdark future game' by one page rules, it is all free and what i play with my students and feels good.

i have a feeling you would not like the current edition, it plays less like a 'wargame' (not that 40k was ever serious about that aspect) and maybe more so like a card game such as magic. but its all subjective, some people been playing 30 years and say current is their favorite. however, it is expensive (and for me too complicated).
   
Made in us
Daemonic Dreadnought





Eye of Terror

angryfan wrote:
My question is does chaos still have a million random charts used for upgrades? Or are they back to how they used to be; and I can actually pick a psychic power per say? Instead of having to roll for one at the start of every battle. Because I might come back if I can pick my upgrades again. Otherwise I think I will just stay away still. I hated that change so much!!!

I shared these concerns. Skipped 7th and came back for 8th.

The new distaste is monopose models, reductions in unit sizes, optional gear restrictions for units, screwy charge mechanics, and removing upgrades like jump packs for Chaos Lords. Feels like we're being nudged away from older units and pushed towards newer ones. Also, $40 single character models and $10 infantry are now a thing.

Sure, now you can pick whatever you want. No, you can't take that option that was there since 2nd ed, we removed it from the game. Might you be interested in this other thing instead?
   
Made in ie
Battleship Captain





Good news: everything is pretty reliable so RNG isn't much of an issue now
Bad news: everything is so reliable that the game is bland and nothing much exciting or swingy happens.


 
   
Made in de
Longtime Dakkanaut



Bamberg / Erlangen

If you want all the options with a good internal and external balance, coupled with nearly 0 randomness in the whole game and a modern alternative activation ruleset, may I direct you towards my signature.

Core rules, Chaos demons, Thousand Sons, Chaos Space Marines and Death Guard army lists (among others) are all available in English language.

   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





No more crazy charts.

Points are freely downloadable ( https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/01/5iSs9obkISmPlK4t.pdf ).

Get Battlescribe for actual unit rules then you'll have everything you need to play and see if you like it at all without any investment.

Note that we're in tournament seasons if you do "matched play" and this one is "Arks of Omen". Wahapedia doesn't have all the rules for that one up yet, but "Nephilim" was the one prior and is quite similar.

Alternatively, if you're more narrative focused then try the actual narrative book:
https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/arks-of-omen-abaddon-2022-eng

It offers a troop focused boarding action style play.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2023/01/22 08:44:42


 
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




Thanks to everyone who replied. I'll try not to rant. But GW gives me PTSD from time to time. So I probable will anyways.

But after looking at the new rules online. And the finding I can't field fatewaver in my Chaos Deamons along with many other wired things. I decided I should probable just do an inventory/count of my models and put them all up Ebay.

I have so many models that I magnetized so I could swap out gear and stuff. And it looks like all that work I did is mostly wasted. Most of the gear options seem to be completely gone. I just don't see the point in even trying anymore.

Plus to field just the units I already have would cost me more than $200 dollars in codex's. Just to play with the crap I already have. GW keep on saying they are a model company and don't care for the game balance/rules. Well when I used to follow them anyway. But then... Why do I have to pay so much just to play with models I already own?

It is going to probable take me a few weeks to photo everything and get it listed. But I don't feel like paying so much just to play a game I already paid for. Anyways thanks for all the info everyone. It was very helpful!!! You guys rock. I wonder how much a 4th edition rule book will go for... Probable nothing lol.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/01/22 05:49:07


 
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle





In My Lab

Fateweaver still exists, though.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in in
[MOD]
Otiose in a Niche






Hyderabad, India

angryfan wrote:
I haven't played for years. I left a long time ago because of how GW treated my army. I played CSM and Daemons. But after that WD that buffed flamers/screamers just to sell some models; Only to nerf them to oblivion right after. It left a really bad taste in my mouth.



I've got some bad news for you on that front...
   
Made in au
Calm Celestian




angryfan wrote:
Thanks to everyone who replied. I'll try not to rant. But GW gives me PTSD from time to time. So I probable will anyways.

But after looking at the new rules online. And the finding I can't field fatewaver in my Chaos Deamons along with many other wired things. I decided I should probable just do an inventory/count of my models and put them all up Ebay.

I have so many models that I magnetized so I could swap out gear and stuff. And it looks like all that work I did is mostly wasted. Most of the gear options seem to be completely gone. I just don't see the point in even trying anymore.

Plus to field just the units I already have would cost me more than $200 dollars in codex's. Just to play with the crap I already have. GW keep on saying they are a model company and don't care for the game balance/rules. Well when I used to follow them anyway. But then... Why do I have to pay so much just to play with models I already own?

It is going to probable take me a few weeks to photo everything and get it listed. But I don't feel like paying so much just to play a game I already paid for. Anyways thanks for all the info everyone. It was very helpful!!! You guys rock. I wonder how much a 4th edition rule book will go for... Probable nothing lol.
It's trying to play a game or two, GW is very differently externally now. They have started to regularly update rules and points for armies based on - data they have gathered, like from events.

Is it perfect? No. But they care enough to try now. (A bigger improvement than it should be)

   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




 JNAProductions wrote:
Fateweaver still exists, though.


Yes... But why is he stuck in thousand sons only? He is a greater deamon. It makes no sense to me. Also spawn cost 21 points in thousand sons army, but 25 points in a CSM army... To many stupid things like this. That make me feel like they still just don't care and are still looking solely for cash grabs.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/01/22 10:13:57


 
   
Made in us
Pestilent Plague Marine with Blight Grenade





angryfan wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
Fateweaver still exists, though.


Yes... But why is he stuck in thousand sons only? He is a greater deamon. It makes no sense to me. Also spawn cost 21 points in thousand sons army, but 25 points in a CSM army... To many stupid things like this. That make me feel like they still just don't care and are still looking solely for cash grabs.


If I'm not mistaken, any CSM army that's not one of the god-specific legions can take a detachment of any daemons they want, with the detachment being up to 25% of your army.
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

angryfan wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
Fateweaver still exists, though.


Yes... But why is he stuck in thousand sons only? He is a greater deamon. It makes no sense to me. Also spawn cost 21 points in thousand sons army, but 25 points in a CSM army... To many stupid things like this. That make me feel like they still just don't care and are still looking solely for cash grabs.


One thing GW has been steadily doing - more so in AoS, but also now in 40K too - is giving the god specific forces more focus.
Heck AoS doesn't even have a single demon army any more. It doesn't exist. Instead each of the 4 Gods* now sport their own army, with demons and unique mortal follower models. It means combined demonic armies aren't really a thing any more as there are restrictions on how many allied models you can take, but it also means that god specific things are much better supported. It also means that, as time passes, we should see more demons and more units for those forces. Because now that they are split into 4 separate armies there's more room to give each god more unique and fancy things without tripping over what the other gods already had.

40K looks like its doing similar with 2 armies now well supported with unique character marines (mortals) and demonic forces. It's still a slower ongoing update, eg Slaanesh hasn't had a turn yet, but moving forward it means that whilst combined arms demonic forces might be less of a thing; individual demonic forces will be far more.



Limits on allies are also present as a means to stop the souping issues of the past. Where you could soup armies together, esp Imperial and Chaos, to create very broken forces; whilst other armies (at the extreme Tyranids) would have far fewer choices and options. Restricting allies means making smart allied choices for theme and specific options whilst keeping the core of the army "pure"




*Technically 5 as the Great Horned Rat is now one of the Great Demon Gods in the Warp

A Blog in Miniature

3D Printing, hobbying and model fun! 
   
Made in de
Longtime Dakkanaut



Bamberg / Erlangen


I get your disappointment about the current state of army lists and restrictions / options. I want to restate to give my homebrew a try out with a good friend of yours. I think alot of the things you dislike in the past and current state of affairs are remedied there. It is not official and thus it's harder to find other players, but still. Give it a try
   
Made in us
Master Engineer with a Brace of Pistols





washington state USA

a_typical_hero wrote:

I get your disappointment about the current state of army lists and restrictions / options. I want to restate to give my homebrew a try out with a good friend of yours. I think alot of the things you dislike in the past and current state of affairs are remedied there. It is not official and thus it's harder to find other players, but still. Give it a try


Yep, our group allows any codex between 3rd-7th ed based mostly on 5th ed rules. with a few imports from 3rd and 4th ed. our chaos players will only use the 3.5 chaos codex and the 4th ed demon codex to expand the options for demon units.

playing older editions is great fun and GW will never screw with you again, you just need to find an active local like minded group.
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




 ArcaneHorror wrote:
angryfan wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
Fateweaver still exists, though.
Yes... But why is he stuck in thousand sons only? He is a greater deamon. It makes no sense to me. Also spawn cost 21 points in thousand sons army, but 25 points in a CSM army... To many stupid things like this. That make me feel like they still just don't care and are still looking solely for cash grabs.


If I'm not mistaken, any CSM army that's not one of the god-specific legions can take a detachment of any daemons they want, with the detachment being up to 25% of your army.
Well when I read it they get special rules as long as they don't take up more than 25% of the army and don't have some specific units in it. Otherwise they don't get the rules. Also I didn't see the added rules as being that great or worthy of keeping all the restrictions for them. I didn't see a limit of 25% or less for X amount of any kind of points. But maybe I just read it wrong. As I was just mostly skimming the new rules.

But what this means is that I have to use detachments of a thousand sons army. Just to include one model. I used to be able to pick up as an extra HQ/heavy. But now he is only an HQ and needs a whole thousand sons detachment. Which may require me to buy some other unit just to field him. So I didn't bother even trying to theory craft a list. As I pointed out the books alone would cost me more than $200. Which just seems like a big money grab to me.
I never played AoS or read its lore. And I don't see how they make abaddon work in that scenario. You know the warlord who has every chaos god's mark. Who now has a whole game made after him. And is core to the creation of CSM to begin with. It might work for AoS... And that's cool it is a different game. But it 100% sucks in 40k.
 aphyon wrote:
Yep, our group allows any codex between 3rd-7th ed based mostly on 5th ed rules. with a few imports from 3rd and 4th ed. our chaos players will only use the 3.5 chaos codex and the 4th ed demon codex to expand the options for demon units.

playing older editions is great fun and GW will never screw with you again, you just need to find an active local like minded group.
I started in 4th ed... Never played in 3.5 I might have to try that one day. And 4th was my favorite for sure (Because of 1 deamon prince upgrade. LOL). But I don't have many friends around me that play 40k. Since I moved to a different state. And haven't gotten into a gaming store forever. So, I think I'll just have to give up on that. I don't know why you guys include 6th and 7th... Those editions are what made me quite. Charts upon Charts upon Charts. And Balance so bad it only makes you cry whenever you try. In 6th or 7th I knew if I won before the match even started. Just based on the faction I was about to face.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/01/22 20:35:41


 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





Either find/start a group using non-GW rulesets or sell the minis.

Once you hit the point where GW's rules changes pushed you out of playing, it'll happen again, no matter what the current state of the game is. After that, it's either find something else to play in the wider hobby, or stay in a leave-come-back-leave-again cycle within the GW Bubble. Better to sell everything off and leave wargaming altogether than endure the latter, though the former offers more options and joy than ever before.
   
Made in us
Master Engineer with a Brace of Pistols





washington state USA

I started in 4th ed... Never played in 3.5 I might have to try that one day. And 4th was my favorite for sure (Because of 1 deamon prince upgrade. LOL). But I don't have many friends around me that play 40k. Since I moved to a different state. And haven't gotten into a gaming store forever. So, I think I'll just have to give up on that. I don't know why you guys include 6th and 7th... Those editions are what made me quite. Charts upon Charts upon Charts. And Balance so bad it only makes you cry whenever you try. In 6th or 7th I knew if I won before the match even started. Just based on the faction I was about to face.


I started in late 3rd myself. 4th was a big improvement in core rules and continued IMHO with 5th with a few minor mistakes.

The 3.5 codex is what made chaos. it has all the options and each legion aligned to the specifc chaos gods have rules that make them play like the lore describes. in the case of the reference previously in this post. there are no special detachments for taking demons for example. you can take them within each aligned faction (world eaters can only take Khorne demons etc..) or you can play one of the undivided factions to access all the demons or the word bearers if you want to run a super demon heavy army as they can replace normal heavy/elite and fast units with even more demons.

The 4th ed demon codex is used within that framework to access more variety in our games. for example, blood crushers did not exist as a model in 3.5 but we allow them to be used in their role with the older codex.

I think you need to understand also how we use 6th and 7th ed in our games. you can use the codexes from 6th/7th but they have to operate under hybrid 5th ed rules. this allows all the codexes that were new to the game-GSCs, ADMECH, deathwatch etc.. as well as if any of the codexes that fit your preferred army however. there are only the 22 USRs allowed from the 5th ed rule book, there are no detachments, formations and the like allowed and you must follow the original FOC. we additionally liked a few rules from 6th and 7th like snap fire and overwatch and feel they add alot to the game in the 5th ed rule set. aside from admech and deathwatch most players opt for the older more thematic codexes mostly from 3rd and 4th with a few from 5th.

If you would like more detail i have an entire topic on that and older editions.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/789567.page

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/01/22 23:15:39






GAMES-DUST1947/infinity/B5 wars/epic 40K/5th ed 40K/victory at sea/warmachine/battle tactics/monpoc/battletech/battlefleet gothic/castles in the sky,/heavy gear 
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




hmm that does sound better. I never liked overwatch so much. It kind of made the game more heavily focused on ranged units... And I love my melee. Its what forced me to get a fatewaver and play more ranged stuff.

But it does sound more interesting maybe I'll see if I can find a group around me willing to do something like that.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka




NE Ohio, USA

angryfan wrote:
hmm that does sound better. I never liked overwatch so much. It kind of made the game more heavily focused on ranged units... And I love my melee. Its what forced me to get a fatewaver and play more ranged stuff.

But it does sound more interesting maybe I'll see if I can find a group around me willing to do something like that.


While your at that, check out things like Battlescribe. Depending upon who you end up playing with you might not have to spend .10 on new books, let alone $200+ to play the current edition.
BTW, 10th Ed is highly likely to arrive this summer.
   
Made in us
Master Engineer with a Brace of Pistols





washington state USA

Overwatch doesn't prevent CC by any stretch of the imagination in 5th. but then the volume of fire is generally less especially compared to the arms race that is 8th ed +. needing 6+ to hit give a slight chance for the assaulted unit to do something (especially if they are terrible in CC like tau). but aside from flamers, template weapons cannot overwatch.

As a general rules in the older editions i try to build balanced armies in the sense that half the army is more shooting based the other half is close combat based as i know close combat will happen as a matter of course. especially given the number of units that can scout/outflank, deepstrike, infiltrate or be summoned in the case of the 3.5 chaos codex.

building a good community is by my experience the most important part of miniature war gaming. a good group of players who can get together for social activity, move models and roll dice while both players have an enjoyable game is far more important than just who wins or loses.

Unfortunately, the current people running GW are far removed from the games creators, and that mind set. most of whom have moved on or retired. leaving the marketing department to cater to a certain type of player base that i would rather not interact with.

The reality is that current 40K is the churn you are constantly chasing. it is the business model that supports constant new releases(and nerfing), codex creep, and a new edition every 3 years. they have the largest market share and great models making it even harder to say no.

Until you walk away like i did after 8th ed dropped and just enjoy the game as it was. or play other games from better companies.





GAMES-DUST1947/infinity/B5 wars/epic 40K/5th ed 40K/victory at sea/warmachine/battle tactics/monpoc/battletech/battlefleet gothic/castles in the sky,/heavy gear 
   
Made in us
Pestilent Plague Marine with Blight Grenade





angryfan wrote:

But what this means is that I have to use detachments of a thousand sons army. Just to include one model. I used to be able to pick up as an extra HQ/heavy. But now he is only an HQ and needs a whole thousand sons detachment. Which may require me to buy some other unit just to field him. So I didn't bother even trying to theory craft a list. As I pointed out the books alone would cost me more than $200. Which just seems like a big money grab to me.


In the upcoming World Eaters codex, there's going to be a daemonkin army of renown that allows World Eaters and Khorne daemons units to be souped together, so it's possible that something similar might come to the Thousand Sons, Death Guard, and Emperor's Children. I do agree with you that the books are ridiculously expensive. I'd wait for tenth edition before buying any of them.
   
Made in au
Calm Celestian




Why would you be spending 200 on rulebooks?

   
Made in us
Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer




The dark hollows of Kentucky

Lammia wrote:
Why would you be spending 200 on rulebooks?

9th edition CSM, that's why. OP is a CSM + Daemons player, that's two codexes right off of the bat. If they also use any Cult Marines besides Noise Marines? Y'know, Plague Marines, Khorne Berzerkers, Rubrics? That's another codex for each, as gw stripped all of those from the CSM codex while leaving them as Elites options for CSM. So, if you want the rules for any one of those units, without going to "unofficial" sources, it's an additional codex for each one.
   
Made in ch
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Lammia wrote:
Why would you be spending 200 on rulebooks?

9th edition CSM, that's why. OP is a CSM + Daemons player, that's two codexes right off of the bat. If they also use any Cult Marines besides Noise Marines? Y'know, Plague Marines, Khorne Berzerkers, Rubrics? That's another codex for each, as gw stripped all of those from the CSM codex while leaving them as Elites options for CSM. So, if you want the rules for any one of those units, without going to "unofficial" sources, it's an additional codex for each one.


Ding Ding Ding.

This here.
IF you have an old CSM army, chances are that you have A: Cult Marines and B: Daemons.
depending upon how many differing types of the above you have. It's frankly bizzare because all GW would've to do was add the datasheets to the CSM dex.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units."
Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?"
Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?"
GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!"
Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.  
   
 
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