Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Hello Everyone,

I got a 3d printer and intend to build a proxy army to play one-page rules and 40k.

How difficult is it to find games with a proxy army? Can you play in hobby shops?

Nobody from somewhere else than your hometown, will be able to answer that for your area.

Where I live players usually do not have any problem with proxies as long as it is obvious what they represent.

Stores are the same, even the local GW store manager has no problem with it, but I spent enough money there to make them lenient.

If you do not have any relation with the store/storemanager it is difficult to say.
If your opponent is one of the store regulars, you should be safe usually. Otherwise, it depends on how you get on with the manager.

Why not visit the game stores in your area and steer the conversation towards using 3D printed models.

I have thousands of dollars over the years dumped into GW games, any game I am playing not only do I not care if you use old hammer, printed, or proxy models, we did this back in the day all the time for models that were not available or out of print. I had a lizardmen army when they first came out, and most of the models did not even exist. So, I converted tons of children's dinosaur toys into game models. No one cared.

However, it is really up to the people you play games with, and their rules. In my opinion if someone is so hardcore about official models only, they are probably no fun to play with. Just don't be cringe or a jerk about it, use models that at least can be represented as the models in question.

Firstly I can highly recommend OPR Grimdark Future, really good game - a friend has a fully printed Samurai Tau army and its super cool.

Going on, It's a tricky question that has a few variables to consider but mainly your opponent and the place you want to play in.

Opponent is nice and easy, just check with them beforehand.
Using proxies is obviously easy to clear with people you know, with strangers its not quite as simple but there are a few things you can do to help.
Make them look cool - people in this hobby like cool models so if they look good then you'll likely be fine -if they are shapeless unpainted blobs less so.
Make sure they are equipped correctly and easy to differentiate - the guns are identifiable and the units dont all look alike, this is one of the main issues with proxy armies - they can put alot of extra mental load on your opponent in an already complex game, making it unfair and leading to issues.
Following on from the above, I've seen people with really cool proxy armies have a little print out showing pictures of each unit and listing exactly what it represents, makes life alot easier for your opponent and helps avoid any confusion as its all clearly written down.

The place you play is the other issue, obviously playing in someone's house is no issue but playing in a store or tournament venue might be.
Store owners can understandably be against the use of 3D printed models as it is a direct threat to many of their revenue streams and they may not want people showing off their cool much cheaper alternative models in the shop to potential customers. This can be smoothed over by making sure you still buy all your paints and other supplies there but I think stores banning full 3d printed armies is not to be unexpected.

In tournaments it will often depend on how much involvement GW has, likely if they are supplying prize support they may have stipulated that no 3d prints are allowed as part of the deal, similarly if a store is involved in the tournament they may have similar issues to the above.

In general just ask ahead of time and try not to be an arse about it (going on about how much cheaper your models are in front of a shop of customers for instance) and you should be fine for pick up games.

Most hobby shops i would think don't really care as long as you support the store in other ways(buy paint, glue, dice etc..) and help build the community.

GW stores obviously are a no-go they won't even allow their own older miniatures in the store if the game is not currently supported.

 aphyon wrote:
Most hobby shops i would think don't really care as long as you support the store in other ways(buy paint, glue, dice etc..) and help build the community.

GW stores obviously are a no-go they won't even allow their own older miniatures in the store if the game is not currently supported.

Guess I am never going to a GW store then! I have 1000s of minis from Rogue trader, 2nd ed, up to WHFB 5th edition, 90s Necromunda, etc. I spent $1000s with them when I was younger (literally blew my entire teenage paychecks on these things), and their new stuff is so expensive. What a dumb move by them. Oh well

The thing you need to understand about GW stores and the business model. yes they have tables and terrain for games but it is mostly for demo purposes and anybody who plays in the store is quite literally a prop to sell models stocked in the store. that is why you could not come in with say BFG or WHFBs at the moment and be allowed to play in the store as they have no product for those games to sell. even though they are official GW product.

The stores are also not generally community friendly like an independent store. they usually have no bathroom access you cannot eat in the store and you can only play current GW games. they also tend to be open for much shorter hours.

 aphyon wrote:
The thing you need to understand about GW stores and the business model. yes they have tables and terrain for games but it is mostly for demo purposes and anybody who plays in the store is quite literally a prop to sell models stocked in the store. that is why you could not come in with say BFG or WHFBs at the moment and be allowed to play in the store as they have no product for those games to sell. even though they are official GW product.

The stores are also not generally community friendly like an independent store. they usually have no bathroom access you cannot eat in the store and you can only play current GW games. they also tend to be open for much shorter hours.

I literally bought a new model kit from a local game store two weeks ago, and not because I needed it. I did not need it, I have enough old hammer models to field several full armies, but I did it to support my local game store. I get GW's biz model, and I understand their logic, but I still feel this is asinine. Also, when vendors/manufacturers act like this, it just makes me and probably many other folks to just 3D print models instead

I mean that model is the same business model for ANY game store. 3rd party or own brand. The only difference is that brand stores are bound to limited product lines and want to support those lines.

Also a good many GW stores only have a small number of tables these days - they have 2 or 3 not 20 or 30. So they can't afford to have tables taken up playing games that can't be sold to people walking past.




3rd party stores of course have different interests. Many might not be as fussy, but they might also charge you to use the tables (flat charge or a subscription fee); they might limit table times - eg Wargames get set times and days and the rest of the time its board games or - for many - card games.

Also you can bet if a 3rd party store were only seeing people playing with out of print models (so only bought and traded second hand and not through the store); or 3d printed ones (where the store isn't providing a printing service); then you can bet their rules would start to change. Free tables might be charged for; supported games might be imposed.



At the end of the day, as much as the staff might love gaming in all its forms, stores have to break even and profit from business. Gaming space is part of that and its also part of advertising for the store. It has to earn its keep otherwise the store stops earning money and passion from the staff is not food on the table or rent and taxes.

Indeed it depends on the store. thankfully our store has a large play are with 8 4X8 tables for various gaming plus a number of smaller ones along with fold up card tables on a first come, first serve basis at no charge. the only renting out they do is for big events that will take up most of the game space. the gaming area itself drives sales and impulse buying. the guys playing specter operations don't get their minis from the store for example, but they do buy their terrain and paint there. other players have bought items based on playing games we introduced them to.

 Overread wrote:
I mean that model is the same business model for ANY game store. 3rd party or own brand. The only difference is that brand stores are bound to limited product lines and want to support those lines.

Also a good many GW stores only have a small number of tables these days - they have 2 or 3 not 20 or 30. So they can't afford to have tables taken up playing games that can't be sold to people walking past.

yeah I get it, it is their biz, they can do what they want. They will also do everything to market their product and not market any other product or competitor. It is biz 101, but at some level you gotta like take care of your community too. Look at the big backlash in D&D right now with the OGL revision where WOTC wanted to maximize their monetization of their product. They almost got most of their customers to quit using their product.

3rd party stores of course have different interests. Many might not be as fussy, but they might also charge you to use the tables (flat charge or a subscription fee); they might limit table times - eg Wargames get set times and days and the rest of the time its board games or - for many - card games.

Of course this is relative to your stores and locations, but the 3 big gaming stores near me I have gone to and talked to employees recently, they don't care if you use proxies. As long as everyone else is cool with it. They get that the hobby is expensive as hell, and not very accessible, and they want to make it more accessible. I have also seen a lot of stores have both public and private tables. Public are first come first serve, and private you gotta rent so you schedule. The private ones are in a different room so you get some level of privacy.

Also you can bet if a 3rd party store were only seeing people playing with out of print models (so only bought and traded second hand and not through the store); or 3d printed ones (where the store isn't providing a printing service); then you can bet their rules would start to change. Free tables might be charged for; supported games might be imposed.

Not in my experience, which is anecdotal. I have tons and old hammer models, and models from games like Star Wars table top (circa 1992), Mutant Chronicles Warzone, L5R, and other minis that are from games that no longer exist. As long as you are up front with your gaming group and everyone is cool with non official models they are generally in my personal experience ok with this. Also, so many people have 3D printers now, and 3D printers are sometimes the only way to get parts for your old hammer models, or for models from games that don't exist anymore. Like Epic 40k, totally defunct and dead game, but if you wanted to play it, you can find all the custom proxy minis online to print and play. This is what makes 3D printing pretty damn great, you can resurrect old games that are no longer in print. I have been thinking about printing a 3D dungeon set for Warhammer Quest myself since I enjoyed that game and it is a fun game to co-op with your pals.

However, it is always up to the biz owner of these stores to settle the rules and expectations. Since I buy other things from these stores (dice, RPG books, other minis, terrain bits, lots of paints, etc) I think they know their customers are gonna spend money every time they are there vs kicking them out for not having the official models.

At the end of the day, as much as the staff might love gaming in all its forms, stores have to break even and profit from business. Gaming space is part of that and its also part of advertising for the store. It has to earn its keep otherwise the store stops earning money and passion from the staff is not food on the table or rent and taxes.

This is exactly why you allow for proxies and 3D printed models. Stores aren't moving GW product like crazy because it is uber expensive and that means it is not as accessible to gamers than their cheaper competitors. If you are in the game store 1-2 times a week playing games with your fellow community members, you are much more likely to purchase things in the store each visit, versus not going at all since your stuff is banned and not spending any money there. I have definitely purchased more non GW stuff in the past few months getting back into table top gaming than I did 40k stuff. I bought the cheapest starter kit with the rules and a space wolf dreadnought since I cannot find my old hammer bjorn the fell handed. Some how Bjorn got lost when I stored all my old hammer minis in boxes in my friends and family's basements. I have on the other hand purchased tons of paints, terrain building materials, cans of primer and sealant, tons of tools and other modeling items, etc from the game stores. They have so much more to sell than the super expesnive GW boxed sets, and I feel they move that product more often simply because it is more accessible to the general public.

Bottom line is, I definitely make sure to spend a few dollars every time I go to the game stores because I want them to remain in business, but I don't plan on dropping over $150 for a tiny war band of minis when I have 100s to 1000s of existing miniatures I have purchased over the years. Things I don't have or need fixing I will 3D print. I will probably buy some official newer models here and there, but damn dude I just got burned on all my WHFB armies when I found out so many of them are just not useful anymore.