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Made in gb
[DCM]
Stonecold Gimster






Hi,

I've been trying to build my Sons of Horus Army, but I'm getting confused by the Transport options.

Question 1.
There are entries in the Liber Hereticus Troops section called Dedicated Transports. Can I use any of these I choose for units of troops? Or, can I only use them if there is a Dedicated Transport section written in the rules for the particular troop unit itself?

Question 2.
I have a unit of 5 Justaerin Terminators. It is stated they are allowed to have a Land Raider Proteus as a dedicated transport. If they become a retinue squad to my Praetor, it states they join his unit. His entry does not have a dedicated transport listed. So are these now stuck on foot?

Question 3.

My unit of 5 Justaerin Terminators are allowed a dedicated transport. If I make the unit larger, are they stuck on foot as the Dedicate Transport entry only has an entry for 5 or less.


Sorry folks, I'm really baffled by this dedicated transport stuff.

My Painting Blog: http://gimgamgoo.com/
Currently most played: Silent Death, Xenos Rampant, Mars Code Aurora and Battletech.
I tried dabbling with 40k9/10 again and tried AoS3 - disliked both, but I'm enjoying HH2 and trying Battletech Classic and AS out 
   
Made in gb
Preparing the Invasion of Terra






1 - Each unit entry will say if it can take a Dedicated Transport and what form that can take.

2 - Characters are not considered when allocating a Dedicated Transport to a unit as they join the unit during the game, not during the list-building stage. As long as the transport capacity of a Dedicated Transport is not exceeded when you add the Character to the unit there will be no issues.

3 - Each unit will have a limitation on whether it is allowed to take a certain transport based on unit size. For example, Legion Terminators can take a Proteus or Dreadclaw if they number no more than 5 models or a Spartan if they number 5 or more. In your case, if you take more than 5 Justaerin you would not be able to take a Proteus Carrier as their Dedicated Transport.
   
Made in se
Slaanesh Veteran Marine with Tentacles





Sweden

And a follow up clarification on 3).

If you take more than can fit in their allowed Dedicated transport, you could instead buy a Spartan from the Heavy Support section and transport them in that.

Dedicated Transports are basically a way to buy certain types of transportation without them taking up Force Organisation slots.

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Made in au
Purposeful Hammerhead Pilot





Another clarification on 1) unit that are in the "dedicated transport" section of the book can only be taken as a dedicated transport for another unit (by that unit having the option to select that transport in its entry - for example tactical squads can have a rhino if they number 10 models. Allowing them to select a rhino as a transport vehicle which does not take up a force organisation slot. Due to the rhino having a transport capacity of 12, you could attach an apothecary and a techmarine to the unit and they would still be able to deploy in their dedicated transport and enter it during the game. If you attached an apothecary and then joined with dying deployment with an independent character, they could still begin the game embarked on that rhino and enter it during the game.

If you joined them with an apothecary and a techmarine, and joined an independent character to them, they would be unable to deploy in the transport ot enter it until one member of the squad is killed or the independent character leaves. They would still be able to select the rhino during the army list building stage though due to consisting of 10 models at the time they purchased the transport.

Transports that are in the fast attack or heavy support slot may be selected as a unit in that slot (ie a dreadclaw drop pod) and may then have any unit that meets the transport capacity deployed them or enter them during the game.

They may also be selected as a dedicated transport for a.unit, provided they meet the same.requirements as all the other dedicated transport rules. Ie the unit has the option for a dreadclaw in its army list entry, and they number the correct number of models to purchase it. In this case they are the only.unit that is allow d to deploy in the transport, but after the game starts any unit may enter or.exit the transport provided the model has transport capacity for them.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




my reading is correct on all points there
   
Made in gb
[DCM]
Stonecold Gimster






Great. Thanks for the help all of you.

If I'm understanding this correctly:

  • The transports that are listed as dedicated transports (Rhino, Drop Pod, Dreadnought Drop Pod and Termite Drill) can only be taken if they are listed in the dedicated transport of a unit's entry. These do not take up any 'slots'.

  • Any other transport capable vehicles can be taken in their respective slot (eg Heavy or Elite) and used by any unit of my choice (provided it has the capacity)


  • If this is correct, it means I'll remove the Drop Pod from my GW wants list. The only entry I can find capable of using a drop pod is a veteran squad. Is that right?


    My Painting Blog: http://gimgamgoo.com/
    Currently most played: Silent Death, Xenos Rampant, Mars Code Aurora and Battletech.
    I tried dabbling with 40k9/10 again and tried AoS3 - disliked both, but I'm enjoying HH2 and trying Battletech Classic and AS out 
       
    Made in gb
    Longtime Dakkanaut




    there is a rite of war for a drop pod assault that allows (IIRC) to exchange a rhino for a drop pod

    there may also be other legion specific rites of war that swap and change transport options about

    a bit like how "deep strike" is somewhat rare
       
    Made in au
    Purposeful Hammerhead Pilot





     Gimgamgoo wrote:
    Great. Thanks for the help all of you.

    If I'm understanding this correctly:

  • The transports that are listed as dedicated transports (Rhino, Drop Pod, Dreadnought Drop Pod and Termite Drill) can only be taken if they are listed in the dedicated transport of a unit's entry. These do not take up any 'slots'.

  • Any other transport capable vehicles can be taken in their respective slot (eg Heavy or Elite) and used by any unit of my choice (provided it has the capacity)


  • If this is correct, it means I'll remove the Drop Pod from my GW wants list. The only entry I can find capable of using a drop pod is a veteran squad. Is that right?



    Correct.

    As stated, drop pods are very rare except for rites of war which normally means you end up with a LOT of them or almost none. Weirdly the rite of war that allowed casual drop pod use for the raven guard was altered to remove that bonus
       
    Made in gb
    [DCM]
    Stonecold Gimster






    Bobug wrote:
     Gimgamgoo wrote:
    Great. Thanks for the help all of you.

    If I'm understanding this correctly:

  • The transports that are listed as dedicated transports (Rhino, Drop Pod, Dreadnought Drop Pod and Termite Drill) can only be taken if they are listed in the dedicated transport of a unit's entry. These do not take up any 'slots'.

  • Any other transport capable vehicles can be taken in their respective slot (eg Heavy or Elite) and used by any unit of my choice (provided it has the capacity)


  • If this is correct, it means I'll remove the Drop Pod from my GW wants list. The only entry I can find capable of using a drop pod is a veteran squad. Is that right?



    Correct.

    As stated, drop pods are very rare except for rites of war which normally means you end up with a LOT of them or almost none. Weirdly the rite of war that allowed casual drop pod use for the raven guard was altered to remove that bonus


    Thanks again all. I think I have it sorted now.

    The only final thing to check...

    The Justaerin Terminator squad (5 or less) can have a dedicated Proteus which means I save a Heavy slot, and I can join my Praetor to them in game.
    OR
    The Justaerin Terminator squad become a retinue to the Praetor becoming part of his unit, and save on their Elite slot. They'd then have to get the transport with the Heavy slot.

    I guess I need to plan my army as to whether I use up a Heavy or an Elite slot for them.

    My Painting Blog: http://gimgamgoo.com/
    Currently most played: Silent Death, Xenos Rampant, Mars Code Aurora and Battletech.
    I tried dabbling with 40k9/10 again and tried AoS3 - disliked both, but I'm enjoying HH2 and trying Battletech Classic and AS out 
       
    Made in au
    Purposeful Hammerhead Pilot





    Although it could be argued that's a slightly grey area, most people would play it that you can take the Proteus as dedicated for the unit with the praetor attached. I've never seen anyone actually play it otherwise, but no doubt someone on the internet will happily argue semantics
       
    Made in gb
    Preparing the Invasion of Terra






    The Praetor gets attached once the game starts while the Land Raider is bought for the Command Squad during the List Building pre-game stage.
    It's the same thing as with Apothecaries or Techmarines. Yes, they have to be assigned to a unit but not until the game starts and the unit is deployed.
    Anyone arguing otherwise can't read.
       
    Made in de
    Regular Dakkanaut




    Berlin

    I assume Bobug talks about the deployment of the Praetor. I do not see this as a grey area.

    Read Praetor as "Praetor or Delegatus"

    Normally an independent character is free to join a unit at deployment:
    „An Independent Character can begin the game already with a unit, either by being deployed in unit coherency with it or, if the unit is in Reserve, by you informing your opponent which unit it has joined.“ And an Apothecarion or TechMarine would have joined their respective units before deployment already.

    With a Praetor and it's retinue it's different:
    „The Retinue Squad must be deployed with the model selected as its Leader deployed as part of the unit and the Leader may not voluntarily leave the Retinue Squad during play.“
    The retinue has to be deployed with him not only at the the same place, but also at the same time. And it is setup as a single unit.

    Furthermore:
    „The Retinue Squad does not use up a Force Organisation slot and is considered part of the same unit as the model selected as its Leader.“
    So even during list creation, they will form a single unit consisting of two elements.
    Each element has its own rules of creation. The Praetor is not part of the Retinue Squad, so he is ignored regarding the retinues-elements dedicated transport limit rule.

    But it will affect the addition of an Apothecarion to the unit. An Apo can't join an unit containing an IC or models with Terminator Armour, so this will affect only a Praetor with Artificer Armour joined by a Legion Command Squad.

    „However, before the first turn begins and any models are deployed to the battlefield, all models in an Apothecarion Detachment must be assigned to another unit from the same Detachment of the army they were selected as part of“

    Some people argue that the Apothecarion can join the retinue, because ICs join units during deployment and the Apothecarion joins before deployment.

    But as we have seen „The Retinue Squad does not use up a Force Organisation slot and is considered part of the same unit as the model selected as its Leader.“ the Retinue will not exist as a separate unit after list creation. Allocating Apos can only happen after list creation, so the unit that the Apo would have to be added to would be the "Praetor with Retinue" and this is not allowed, because th Praetor is an IC.

       
    Made in au
    Purposeful Hammerhead Pilot





    Not talking about apothecary and command squadsate. I'm on about the unit size of a retinue with an IC attached for transport selection
       
    Made in gb
    Preparing the Invasion of Terra






    Doesn't matter because the Praetor/Delegatus isn't deployed as part of the unit until during the game. While you can only purchase a Command Squad if you have a Praetor/Delegatus they are not an add-on to the HQ unit and said HQ unit does not matter when purchasing the Transport for the Command Squad at the list building stage. HH2 also specifically buffed the transport capacity of all vehicles to make sure the issue of attaching a character to a unit did not cause problems.

    This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/01/28 13:04:21


     
       
    Made in gb
    Longtime Dakkanaut




    the buff to transport capacity specifically to allow a character or two as attachments is one of the most sensible things GW have ever done

    I would further add that a literal reading of the rules as they are written is a short path to insanity, I know, I tried, the coloured lights and music are fun

    approach it from "what appears to be the intention?" and talk to people you play against

    for me the logic is thus:

    when building your force the command squad is a "retinue" unit, thus taken because you have a character that allows it, who when the game starts will deploy and join them and stay there.. the command squad can have a transport, as long as you don't buy a command squad such that the boss dude has to ride outside its golden.

    when Horus Heresy was 1st Edition Space Marine in 6mm your boss dudes had command squads on the same base, and they had transport..

    not to mention if the grunts get a ride the boss ain't walking

    also: bling the transport, if the enemy can;t tell which has the boss dude from low orbit, its not 40k or 30k
       
    Made in us
    Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer




    The dark hollows of Kentucky

    Orrrrrrr.....what Gert said. Procs to Herty Gerty, he hit it. Also, one of Dakka Dakka's best 30k
    rules resources, despite our occasional disputes, if I may say so myself... .

    This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/01/28 22:07:35


     
       
    Made in au
    Purposeful Hammerhead Pilot





    Just for the record. I do agree with you 😂
       
    Made in gb
    Preparing the Invasion of Terra






    Leopard, you're overcomplicating things. The rules are not convoluted or confusing, you just need to sit down and actually read them.
       
    Made in gb
    Longtime Dakkanaut




     Gert wrote:
    Leopard, you're overcomplicating things. The rules are not convoluted or confusing, you just need to sit down and actually read them.


    I have, several times, that wasn't the point I was making.
       
     
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