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Gloss varnish for shiny bits, yes or no?
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Made in nl
Regular Dakkanaut





I’m just wondering what the policy is on using gloss varnish for the shiny parts of miniatures. I normally use mat for everything but I’m thinking of going over some weapons and armor with gloss. Does anybody else do that?
   
Made in us
The Marine Standing Behind Marneus Calgar





Upstate, New York

Sort of?

I use some gloss paints. From GW’s technical range, the green and blue soulstone paints, and the gloss BftBG for red. Is use them for wax seals, lenses, power weapons, etc.

And I don’t varnish my minis, so that gloss coat is the final layer.

   
Made in ca
Stormin' Stompa






Ottawa, ON

I'll occasionally put som gloss on things like jewels and lenses. I have also been experimenting with gloss on metallic bits. Although, it mostly just makes them look wet.

Ask yourself: have you rated a gallery image today? 
   
Made in us
Lieutenant General





Florence, KY

Vallejo has a Satin Varnish you could try instead.

'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents
cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable
defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'

- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty
Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
 
   
Made in us
Scarred Ultramarine Tyrannic War Veteran






Maple Valley, Washington, Holy Terra

I make selective use of gloss varnish for some shiny bits. I find that it's an easy and effective way to create different textures.

"Calgar hates Tyranids."

Your #1 Fan  
   
Made in au
Grizzled Space Wolves Great Wolf





 Mr Nobody wrote:
I'll occasionally put som gloss on things like jewels and lenses. I have also been experimenting with gloss on metallic bits. Although, it mostly just makes them look wet.


Gloss varnish can definitely make things look wet, it needs to be applied very thin.

Actual gloss paints rather than gloss varnish over matte paints can work better. Do the parts of the model that won't be glossy, matte varnish the model, then paint the glossy bits with gloss paint and either don't varnish them or just give them a super thin coat of varnish.

You can also use glossiness as a form of contrast. For my 15mm scale Thousand Sons, I used Tamiya Clear Red (super glossy), then when I shaded it I used a matte black wash, but I was careful to sweep the matte wash into the crevices and used a clean brush to wipe it from the raised surfaces. So the raised surfaces are satin/gloss (because the wash residue does leave some matteness even when it's cleaned off, it wasn't super glossy), but the crevices are matte, and I like the effect. Here's a pic: https://www.dakkadakka.com/gallery/1147932-.html but the picture doesn't really give a good feel of how they look in person where the light reflections dance on the raised surfaces.

Another way of using gloss varnish in a similar idea is to wipe most of it off your brush, and just lightly stroke the raised surfaces, making the raised surfaces shiny while the crevices stay matte.

But, use very little gloss varnish or it'll start to look wet.


This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2023/01/26 04:07:02


 
   
Made in fi
Buttons Should Be Brass, Not Gold!






Varnish and paint glossyness is a very underutilized thing in miniature painting circles. But it is a huge topic in modelling. Why GW never talks about glossiness/matteness of paints is a headscratcher to me - It matters quite a bit to the results!

I'm still experimenting with shininess & roughness when it comes to miniatures, but I feel there's a lot of depth and dimension there which could be tapped into. Controlling shininess is less demanding than controlling roughness (demands mad modelling & painting skills!), so a good area to get into.

So far, I use the properties of the paints themselves to dictate glossiness. Tamiya X1 black is a go-to for anything I want looking like a lens, its gloss is just perfect for that!

In terms of varnish, I have only been utilizing glossyness to aid in specific tasks (ie gloss coat makes oil washes pool less etc), but there's no reason why you couldn't use it for manipulating surface glossiness as well. It's just that varnishes are tricky in general IME. You can totally mess up a paint job going in too heavy with a varnish, or using the wrong kind/dilution with one.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2023/01/26 10:49:14


 
   
Made in nl
Regular Dakkanaut





So far I'm really enjoying this thread. I think it's very useful. I like the idea of using glossy paints but I also do want to varnish my miniatures to protect them so I'm supposing I'll lose some of the glossiness if I put mat varnish over them.

I'm also concerned about the wetness issue. Sometimes I've found I get that by over applying shade paints or Lahmian medium. I've got a few minis at the moment with some "wet" patches and am hoping that I can get rid of them when I apply the mat varnish (at the moment it's too cold out to spray. Waiting for the spring!)
   
Made in de
Huge Bone Giant






Sounds like you should look into brush on varnishes (I like the Vallejo ones myself). You can apply them very selectively. Much better than working with a spray if you want different effects on different parts of a model.

 Mr Nobody wrote:
I'll occasionally put som gloss on things like jewels and lenses.


It's not the only places where I use gloss varnish, but gems are certainly something I wouldn't want to paint without a glossy finish anymore.

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Why is the rum always gone? 
   
Made in gr
Regular Dakkanaut





The key point is to dilute enough.

Especially if you don't have an airbrush. You have to dilute gloss varnish to almost nothing, and then apply it several times. Be patient, but the effect will be good.

and,in the case of Vallejo paints,by occasional chance, I found that the effect of glaze medium seems to be more shin than that of gross varnish.(it no certainly.)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/01/26 12:47:14


 
   
Made in au
Grizzled Space Wolves Great Wolf





 tauist wrote:
Varnish and paint glossyness is a very underutilized thing in miniature painting circles. But it is a huge topic in modelling. Why GW never talks about glossiness/matteness of paints is a headscratcher to me - It matters quite a bit to the results!


I think the basic reason for that is that what is considered the "ideal" for miniature painting is to have all lighting painted on often in a hyper-realistic way, so texture tends to be painted on. But in scale modelling, the goal is often to achieve something that looks real... just smaller, so people try to emulate the texture more.

Not sure why GW doesn't talk about it more though, as they don't really talk much about painting textures either.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
WWW-STL wrote:
The key point is to dilute enough.

Especially if you don't have an airbrush. You have to dilute gloss varnish to almost nothing, and then apply it several times. Be patient, but the effect will be good.

and,in the case of Vallejo paints,by occasional chance, I found that the effect of glaze medium seems to be more shin than that of gross varnish.(it no certainly.)


If it's used super dilute it can be easy to accidentally apply it like a wash where it sinks into the crevices, which is usually the opposite of the desired effect.

Whether it's dilute or neat, I try to remove most of it off my brush before applying it, so only a small amount ends up on the model with each brush stroke. It's bad for brushes though, don't use a nice brush.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/01/26 14:10:48


 
   
Made in gb
Thane of Dol Guldur





Bodt

I don't use gloss for anything other than marble bases. Some people say to use it on gemstones etc, but I've just painted the reflections and light points on, so why create others with an artificial shine?

Marble bases are slightly different, because you can't paint the light/shadows on them.

As for gloss over metallics, nonsense. I say this all the time. Metallic shine is not the same as gloss/wet shine. Same as the above example, you have the metallic flakes creating their shines, why add a different source of reflection? Matte over metallics is fine. It doesn't really remove any of the metallic shine.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/01/26 16:36:00


Heresy World Eaters/Emperors Children

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Made in nl
Regular Dakkanaut





Now I’m wondering about the opposite. I’ve got some miniatures that ended up with some wet looking patches by over applying shade paints. Can I stop them looking wet by using mat varnish?
   
Made in au
Grizzled Space Wolves Great Wolf





 queen_annes_revenge wrote:
I don't use gloss for anything other than marble bases. Some people say to use it on gemstones etc, but I've just painted the reflections and light points on, so why create others with an artificial shine?



I kind of agree with the gemstones thing, while they are supposed to be shiny, the typical way to paint them is to paint that shine into them, and the gloss varnish will just distract from that.

But, it all depends. I think the advantage of painting them gloss is that painted on shine is static, it lacks that dynamic where the light dances on them. So if you're painting for the display shelf versus static images, the gloss can give that dynamic effect, but usually at the cost of obscuring the shine and depth that was manually painted on.

As for gloss over metallics, nonsense. I say this all the time. Metallic shine is not the same as gloss/wet shine. Same as the above example, you have the metallic flakes creating their shines, why add a different source of reflection? Matte over metallics is fine. It doesn't really remove any of the metallic shine.


I think the argument for painting metallics with gloss is either 1. to protect them or 2. to bring back some shine that was lost to a matte varnish.

Metals are shiny for various reasons, one is they have free electrons on the surface that can absorb then re-emit light of the same wavelength, but also there's a question of surface finish. A well polished metal will reflect like a mirror (perhaps a carbon steel sword that's been polished to a shine and oiled to prevent corrosion), a rough surfaced metal (e.g. a sand blasted surface) will look dull (granted, still more lustrous than a non-metal, but it won't appear to have strong specular reflections).

The metallic flakes gives the metal their lustre, but there's still the surface finish to consider.

Most metallic paints are in and of themselves glossy to push more towards the polished metal look. A layer of matte varnish gives a rough surface texture that can make the metal look dusty or rough or sandblasted or oxidised. The dusty effect can be used to advantage by painting matte into the crevices and leaving the exposed areas in their bare metallic finish or using just a touch of gloss varnish to bring back the shine that had previously been lost to a matte varnish.

In terms of protecting them, applying a gloss varnish over a shiny true metallic finish isn't ideal IMO, but it's way better than applying a matte varnish, assuming "shiny true metallic" is the goal.

I tend to think that ideally you just leave the bare metallic rather than varnishing it, as a varnished metal will almost always look like there's something on top of the metal. But I have seen scale models of polished aluminium aircraft where the modeller says they put a layer of gloss varnish over it but to my eye it I couldn't see it, they must have done super thin coats through an airbrush to achieve it.

NMM is something completely different though, you generally don't want to paint a NMM with a gloss varnish.





Automatically Appended Next Post:
Jandgalf wrote:
Now I’m wondering about the opposite. I’ve got some miniatures that ended up with some wet looking patches by over applying shade paints. Can I stop them looking wet by using mat varnish?


Sure, you can do that. But make sure you're mixing your shade paints properly, the matting agent can sink to the bottom and take some serious shaking to get it mixed in on certain colours. In my experience the current batch of GW shade paints can be applied pretty heavily before they start to gloss up.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2023/01/26 19:15:09


 
   
Made in fi
Buttons Should Be Brass, Not Gold!






Shininess and wetness are two different things, agreed.

I can understand wanting to paint the light effects etc, this is the traditional miniature painting way.. But these days, I find realistic techniques more interesting. I try to avoid OSL and never paint gemstone light fx, preferring LEDs and glossy paints instead. These create more realistic looking light fx, especially for "FW style" illustrationesque photography
   
Made in us
Grisly Ghost Ark Driver






Jandgalf wrote:
So far I'm really enjoying this thread. I think it's very useful. I like the idea of using glossy paints but I also do want to varnish my miniatures to protect them so I'm supposing I'll lose some of the glossiness if I put mat varnish over them.
Use a brush-on gloss varnish. It gives you more control as you gloss only the areas you need.

I seal my figures starting with a gloss varnish spray, then "flatting" it out with a matte spray. [Previous experience has shown me that matte varnish does not protect for very long, but I don't like the glassy look that gloss coats give.] If something needs more shine, I go back with the brush gloss varnish.

Another reason to use a gloss varnish is if you are applying the slide-on decals that one soaks in water. Most manufacturers advise transferring the decals to a glossy surface. So either you can spray the whole model, apply decals then flat varnish afterwards, or if it's a few tiny decals, just brush the gloss on those spots.

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Made in ca
Stormin' Stompa






Ottawa, ON

Jandgalf wrote:
Now I’m wondering about the opposite. I’ve got some miniatures that ended up with some wet looking patches by over applying shade paints. Can I stop them looking wet by using mat varnish?


Most definitely. I find a matte or satin varnish over the whole model helps give everything a uniform sheen. Ill give my 'dirty' models a matte varnish and my cleaner and more colorful armies a satin finish. And I feel my paint blends look nicer under a coat of varnish.

Ask yourself: have you rated a gallery image today? 
   
Made in nl
Armored Iron Breaker






Struggling about in Asmos territory.

Depends on the look I want, when I want something to look wet and rusty sure, when I want something to look weathered I'll use matte.

Soulstones etc always gloss, same with vizors and scopes etc.

"Why would i be lying for Wechhudrs sake man.., i do not write fiction!"

 
   
Made in gb
Thane of Dol Guldur





Bodt

Also, gloss varnish being more protective than matte is a myth that needs dispelling wherever it pops up.

Heresy World Eaters/Emperors Children

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Made in ca
Stormin' Stompa






Ottawa, ON

 queen_annes_revenge wrote:
Also, gloss varnish being more protective than matte is a myth that needs dispelling wherever it pops up.


Yeah, that's more of a thing with house paint. Any varnish will be leagues more durable than a latex paint, no matter the sheen.

Ask yourself: have you rated a gallery image today? 
   
Made in us
Grisly Ghost Ark Driver






 queen_annes_revenge wrote:
Also, gloss varnish being more protective than matte is a myth that needs dispelling wherever it pops up.
Not a myth. I had to repaint after the Testors Dullcote FAILED. I've not had a problem since changing to the double coat. Even if it is a pain.

Kings of War: Abyssal Dwarves, Dwarves, Elves, Undead, Northern Alliance [WiP], Nightstalkers [WiP]
Dropzone Commander: PHR
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Made in au
Grizzled Space Wolves Great Wolf





 queen_annes_revenge wrote:
Also, gloss varnish being more protective than matte is a myth that needs dispelling wherever it pops up.


I actually tested this in a somewhat scientific manner many years ago, gloss -> matte was tougher than only matte, but not by much. I posted the results several years ago on dakka.

Gloss varnish had the benefit that it's harder to get the initial bite on a glossy surface, but also a dried blob of gloss varnish had a more rubbery feel, so it can probably absorb slightly more energy before failure. I only did scratch tests though, not impact testing.

I'm not sure where the idea that matte is just as tough as gloss came in, it's conventional wisdom because it's basically true, it makes sense that the matting agent used to make varnish matte also interferes with the resin to make it weaker, the only thing is maybe the difference between 2 coats of matte and one coat of gloss/one coat of matte is smaller than people might think.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
 goblinzz wrote:
AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Initial impressions after a a few hours, all are very easy to scratch with a pin. But scratching with a nail there's clear differences...

VMC (nothing else) - extremely easy to scratch
VMC -> VMC -> VMC - extremely easy to scratch
VMC -> Matte -> Matte - slightly harder but still easy to scratch
VMC -> Satin -> Satin - same as matte
VMC -> Gloss -> Gloss -a little bit harder to scratch than satin or matte. It seems mostly that my nail slips over the surface instead of biting in and doing damage.
VMC -> Humbrol Clear -> Humbrol Clear - the toughest so far. It's quite a bit harder to gouge, but when it finally does fail a bigger chunk comes off.

Of course, none of them would be fully cured yet, it's only been a few hours. I'll have a look again tomorrow night. At the moment the paint feels more chalky/brittle than the varnishes which seems to be why it's scratching easier.

Maybe I should have tried one VMC -> gloss -> matte.


Legend! Any further results after curing time?
Sure why not! It's been ~18 hours since I applied it. So still not what I'd call "fully cured" but a lot further in to it.

I swapped from trying to scratch it with my finger nail to using the back (blunt) side of some toothpicks I had lying around. I also did a VMC -> gloss -> matte swatch because I know that's what a lot of people actually use in practice.

VMC (nothing else) - still quite easy to scratch, I have to apply a bit of force but not much.

VMC -> VMC -> VMC - MUCH easier to scratch. The 3 coats of paint (applied a few hours apart) is super weak to scratching. Much weaker than 1 coat. I have to apply almost no force to remove the paint.

VMC -> Any type of varnish. Very resilient to the toothpick. Holding the toothpick 3/4" from the end, the toothpick is typically snapping at the same time as the paint starts scratching. I can scratch it if I try hard enough, but I'm having to apply enough force that it's hard to gauge.

So 18 hours in, all the varnished ones are winning but I need a new method of scratch testing. I tried the back (chamfered) side of a metal drill bit but that makes it too easy to scratch all of them with very little force so it's again difficult to gauge. So I need an intermediate material to do my scratching. My toothpicks are quite cheap and old so maybe I just need to buy some better toothpicks, or perhaps fashion a gouging device from plasticard.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ok I tried a piece of sprue as a scratching device. This is a bit stiffer than the toothpick so is giving me a better range.

VMC (nothing else) - easy to scratch
VMC -> VMC -> VMC - MUCH easier to scratch and when it scratches the paint comes off in bigger chunks.
VMC -> Matte -> Matte - much harder to scratch, requires significantly more force than the single coat of VMC.
VMC -> Satin -> Satin - same as matte
VMC -> gloss -> matte - it feels ever so slightly tougher than matte->matte, but not a big difference. If I had proper equipment I'd definitely expect bigger numbers, but how much bigger? I dunno.
VMC -> Gloss -> Gloss -a little bit harder again. At this stage it mostly seems like things are more likely to slip over the gloss surface rather than biting in, which means I have to apply more force to get the paint to scratch/gouge.
VMC -> Humbrol Clear -> Humbrol Clear - still the toughest. Even though the Humbrol Clear was very thin when applying it, at this point it FEELS the thickest for some reason, quite an interesting comparison to the Vallejo gloss.


I'll wait longer for it to cure more, but I don't expect the unvarnished ones to ever get as tough as the varnished ones because I have another model sitting next to me that was primed at the same time as my test model but fully painted, and even after months of time to cure it's not as tough as the one I varnished only 18 hours ago.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tested them again. It's been a bit under 26 or so hours and I can feel the difference from 18 hours. But the trend is still the same...

3 coats of VMC < Single coat VMC < matte vallejo varnish = satin vallejo varnish < gloss then matte vallejo varnish (but not by much) < gloss vallejo varnish < humbrol clear

At this point the tougher ones (humbrol clear and gloss vallejo varnish) actually take quite a lot of force to scratch with my plastic sprue scratcher. At this point the humbrol stuff is tough enough that it even takes a bit of force (though not much) to scratch it with the back of a metal drill (compared to all the others that scratch with almost no force). I'm running out of area to test my scratches so I'll wait a while before I test them again to get an idea of what they're like when they're almost fully cured.


AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Alright, about 48 hours later I've tested it again. My final results on a scale of endurance from weakest to strongest, I'll try and space them out by roughly how different they are

1 - 3 coats of VMC applied over primer a few hours apart
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2 - single coat of VMC over primer
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3 - single coat of VMC followed by 2 coats of Vallejo satin
4 - single coat of VMC followed by 2 coats of Vallejo matte
5 - single coat of VMC followed by 1 coat of Vallejo gloss and 1 coat of Vallejo matte
|
|
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6 - single coat of VMC followed by 2 coats of Vallejo gloss (note that you can mar the gloss surface before the paint itself scratches, but to actually damage the paint is considerably harder).
|
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7 - single coat of VMC followed by 2 coats of Humbrol Clear, even to mar the glossy finish takes a lot more effort than the Vallejo stuff.

However, if what you try and scratch it with is significantly harder than the paint (like metal), it's very easy to scratch all of them.

Keep in mind Humbrol Clear is a different animal, it's still an acrylic varnish but it's super thin, designed for good self levelling and seems to have an ammonia thinner in it.

Just for the hell of it I put a drop of paint, a drop of gloss and a drop of matte on a sheet of aluminium foil to see what differences there were. The matte varnish is more brittle than the gloss which has more of a rubbery finish and the paint is quite soft and susceptible to damage.

So it seems the traditional wisdom is true. Gloss > Matte > bare paint. The one that sort of surprised me was 3 layers of paint is easier to damage than 1 layer (because it's easier to bite in to it and gouge it off).

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/01/28 01:29:49


 
   
 
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