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So I've been a fan of Guard Armor for some time (save when I have the misfortunate to have to assault through tidal waves of ordinance those guys throw out) and they have actually started on something I actually like in the more recent releases.

The Guard is a galaxy spanning organization and while you think that having tanks like the Russ where everyone has the exact same tank would be the best from a logistics standpoint. You'd be correct on that as well.

But I like that we are seeing a fairly large diversification in Guard chassis. The Rogal Dorn, Macharius and to a lesser extent the Malcador all fill the same niche. But because the industrial basis of the guard is so dispersed, between separate Forge World, Industrial Worlds and the other sundry pieces of Imperial infrastructure, it makes sense that almost like the Soviet Union and her T-64/72/80 lines all being in production at the same time, that the Guard would also end up with multiple tanks all designed to fulfill similar roles but be functionally incompatible with each other. These tanks all occupy the spot between a Leman Russ and a Baneblade, and do so at various ages of the Imperium but still serve alongside each other. This is a nice World building piece in my opinion because having such a varied armory shows the issues with the Imperial system being able to keep everyone on the same page.

A guard Army in say the Ultima Segmentum may be reliant upon Macharius Tanks for his Heavy Armor, while another Commander in another Guard Army Corps in say, Segmentum Solar, has to rely upon Rogal Dorn Tanks for the same job. It helps create a fair amount of depth to the Guard's logistical side.

If you read the Imperial Guardsmen Uplifting Primer (which is in-universe a heavy piece of propaganda, but also has instructions for guardsmen requisitions), it's pretty clear that the logistics of the guards are incredibly stringent.

The lasgun is a good weapon, but they are perfect for the guards due to low upkeep, reliability, and comparably low ammunition cost, perfect when your goal is arming trillions of meatbags with the life-expectancy of a warm bucket of spit, in Antartica. And the near-uniformality of IG gears made sense due to the fanatical adherence to STCs.

So the Leman Russ had always made sense, specifically due to its chassis, which is the same as those used by the Chimera and many other IG vehicles. Pretty much the only difference is extra armour plating, engine, and the gun. Replacement parts are therefore better standarised, help by the fact that differences between Forge Worlds may be minor enough to allow for general use, given they all produce off the same STC (or at least STCs with only minor differences), further streamline logistics and therefore the job of monitorum.

The Macharius is a super heavy tank that's meant to supplement the lack of Baneblades. So its eccentricity is more the result of a compromise -- after all, having a super heavy tank is better than having no super heavy tank, logistics be damned.

The Malcador was more a sign of the Imperium's decay, more than anything, as it predates the Leman Russ and even now has few Forge Worlds still producing replacement parts for them. They are a dying breed. DKoK favors them due to tactical synchronicity, but most only use them as mascots. It's also a MBT despite its size.

We don't yet know much about the Rogal Dorn -- is it a new tank whose STC was re-discovered only recently? Is it an ancient design from the reconquest recently coming out of mothball? If it's the last one, I think it can be a good background story telling thread to show how desparate the Imperium has gotten.

Besides it's not an MBT, but rather something between it and a Super Heavy Tank -- such a role necessitates that it largely cannot share parts with either anyway.

 lcmiracle wrote:


So the Leman Russ had always made sense, specifically due to its chassis, which is the same as those used by the Chimera and many other IG vehicles. Pretty much the only difference is extra armour plating, engine, and the gun. Replacement parts are therefore better standarised, help by the fact that differences between Forge Worlds may be minor enough to allow for general use, given they all produce off the same STC (or at least STCs with only minor differences), further streamline logistics and therefore the job of monitorum.

But the Leman Russ has a very very different Chassis, hasn't it?

panzerfront14 wrote:
The Rogal Dorn, Macharius and to a lesser extent the Malcador all fill the same niche.

Rules-wise yes, fluff-wise less so.

The Malcador is effectively an obsolete version of the LRBT. It's only slightly larger than a LRBT and armed with very similar weapons. Lore-wise it was originally a fast tank in the 30k era, not a heavy tank, but the Imperium is no longer able to build a reliable version of the Malcador's engine and most of their supplies of the tank are hoarded in vast planet-sized warehouses for last ditch emergency use. When it does have to be used on a 40k battlefield it fills the same general role as the LRBT and is far too poorly armed and armored to compete with even a Macharius-scale enemy. It's only really an intermediate tank because back in 5th (IIRC) edition GW made it a very small superheavy unit and all superheavy units had some major defensive buffs that normal units lacked.

The Macharius is intended to be a Baneblade competitor, not a true intermediate tank. The original idea was that it lacks the Baneblade's multiple secondary weapons and some of the advanced targeting computers and such but its main gun is comparable to a true Baneblade-scale tank and it has similar durability. The intent was that because true Baneblades are always in short supply the Macharius could be an easier to build alternative: not quite as good but better than not having a superheavy tank at all. This is a variant of the original fluff for the Baneblade, that the FW Mars and Lucius pattern kits represented a true Baneblade but countless counterfeit versions were produced by lesser forge worlds that couldn't make the real thing. The Macharius technically has a bit of a different backstory in being a separate STC design rebuilt from fragments rather than a direct attempt to clone the Baneblade but it still fills that same concept. It's only in the tabletop game that it falls well short of being a true superheavy unit, as GW has neglected to allow its rules to keep up with power creep.

As for the Dorn? Who knows. Its design seems like much more of a deliberate mid-size tank but GW has given us barely more than "it's a cool tank and it is really cool" for lore.

What would have been a good and not too far fetched explanation: Leman Russ has a welded steel hull, Rogal Dorn a cast hull. Not every Forgeworld has the ability for high quality, large scale casting, so there you have both types

It’s also ease of construction.

Not all arms and armour are produced by Forgeworlds. Indeed many systems simply lack such a planet nearby.

And so the mass deployed armour is relatively basic enough that regular manufacturom can churn them out en masse. And given such creations are also part of your Tithe, keeping them fairly regimented allows that resulting Tithe to be distributed to Regiments in the field as replacements, or to freshly raised Regiments where their world lacks its own manufacturoms - such as Agri Worlds.

In turn, this creates a fairly standardised fighting force across The Imperium’s far flung worlds. The result that any Lord General or similar bigwig can take quick stock of the forces at their disposal, and know what they can and can’t do in terms of strategies.

Yes different worlds will have their variances in Leman Russ and Chimera etc, but those tend to be relatively minor. Slightly faster, stronger armour because of an abundance of a given mineral local to their place of construction etc. But despite those, a Leman Russ is a Leman Russ is a Leman Russ (erm…except when it’s a Primarch) and so in terms of overall logistics it still works.

And that’s just the assembly and deployment of the tanks themselves. The same holds true for sticking to certain patterns of weapons, as that reduces the book keeping side of logistics as simple as possible. If you have say, 30 sub-types of Leman Russ, but their Battle Cannons are all entirely standardised, that’s one shipment of shells, not “well types 1, 5, 7, 22 and 29 need Shell sub-type A, type 2 specifically needs Shell sub-type B” etc.

This also offers some protection against mis-delivery of ammunition. Even if you and another warzone’s ammo gets switched in transport, there’s still a solid chance you can use them anyway (never guaranteed, even down to otherwise highly standardised for just that reason Lasgun, as highly is not completely)

Armageddon is a good example as a hive world that produces vast numbers of Chimeras and Leman Russ (particularly the former), as well as variants. Hive worlds are huge centres of industry.

Forge worlds typically focus on the high-end stuff, although they also create enormous quantities of lesser equipment.

Also worth noting things like the Macharius and Malcador were introduced as moth balled reserves, stuff normally held back for the PDF, in favour of the more ubiquitous Leman Russ, only being deployed when absolutely necessary.

They’re still perfectly servicable, but their production appears less widespread, which fits neatly into my post above. Basically when you’re arming and equipping untold billions, standardisation removes a great many logistical headaches, with whether the mass production is of the best tank or transport a lesser consideration.

 Pyroalchi wrote:
But the Leman Russ has a very very different Chassis, hasn't it?

The tracks are (quite literally) interchangeable, and the suspension seems to be the same.

I don't really buy the in-universe explanations for GW cranking out new tank models. Unlike the USSR, technology has pretty much stagnated, and the Russ chassis is remarkably flexible in terms of armament. I remember when GW first got into that sort of thing in 3rd (and sponsonless tanks were briefly the way to go). It was interesting watching turrets switch out as well as the rules for firing Ordnance and moving and firing kept switching around.

Indeed, that was one of the things about the concept that worked, just as the Marines really had only two hulls to work with: the Land Raider and the Rhino.

I mentioned this in the other thread, and this is the theory re: the Dorn I most like. It's the T-64 to the Leman Russ's T-62. The Russ is explicitly the "cheap" tank. From Lexicanum:

The Leman Russ' armour is not the most sophisticated but is practical and rugged, allowing it to weather the harshest environments or enemy fire.

While slow in comparison to other Guard vehicles and lacking in advanced technology, its ruggedness and reliability are the tank's defining attribute.

The Dorn, in this theory, was a higher-quality battle tank for the Terran regiments of the Imperial army. It was probably meant to see wider introduction, ala the SLDF Royal Divisions. But, the widespread destruction of the Great Heresy War probably left its STC template or the STC template for something important in the hands of a select few Forgeworlds. Guilliman came along, and he forced them to share.

 RaptorusRex wrote:
I mentioned this in the other thread, and this is the theory re: the Dorn I most like. It's the T-64 to the Leman Russ's T-62.

Yeah, but the Soviets were also in an arms race with the West (and later China). That's why you had the rapid progression. The Imperium has no near-peer adversary pushing the limits of tank design.

I'd also be interesting if the "new technology" has an in-game effect (like targeters). That would make more sense, and of course it is a time-tested GW sales strategy to push the new hotness.

Its strange, I know the Macharius is supposed to be a Baneblade supplement yet it seems to slot in quite well as a Heavy tank to the Leman Russ's Medium Tank and the Baneblade's Super Heavy Tank.

I know the Malcador is an older "fast tank" I always saw it as a heavy tank because while having worse armor than a Leman Russ it was larger, and seemed to carry substantially more armament.

More of a KV-85 to the T-44 of the Russ. Yes the KV is a heavy tank, but the armor on the T-44 is still better and they carry the same armament. One is just a more advanced design than the other.

I frankly view the Rogal Dorn and the Macharius as IS series tanks, an IS-8 and IS-4 or what have you, while the Baneblade is obviously the IS-7.

I doubt that the Rogal Dorn was supposed to replace the Leman Russ, but it clearly seems to complement it as a heavy tank.

What is interesting is the idea that the majority Guard needs are met by either the Russ or the Baneblade and its derivatives. Perhaps Baneblade production can't keep up with demand (an established point) and so the Rogal Dorns were introduced, either from Terran Reserves, new production of a less complicated pattern or whatever mechanism you want to ascribe to it.

As a whole the Imperium seems to love heavy tanks, compare the number of types of Heavy tank they produce vs the number of light and medium tanks. NOTE: I am referring to unique chassis not number of variations, since I think the Leman Russ is the most diverse hull in the game rn, save maybe the Chimera or Rhino

panzerfront14 wrote:
As a whole the Imperium seems to love heavy tanks, compare the number of types of Heavy tank they produce vs the number of light and medium tanks. NOTE: I am referring to unique chassis not number of variations, since I think the Leman Russ is the most diverse hull in the game rn, save maybe the Chimera or Rhino

The focus on heavy tanks was only because GW started selling them at an immense markup. They are really the wrong scale for 40k sized battles (so are aircraft, but that's another matter).

The Imperium is all about uniformity and mass over quality. Thus, there is no good reason to have anything other than a Leman Russ in the tank role. The Demolisher variant proved that it was possible to up-armor it, and through changes in sponson, front hull and main gun, you can put whatever you want in it.

Similarly, the Chimera chassis fills out the rest of the roles, serving as an APC, SP gun and mortar carrier. It has a higher base speed, so can also be used in a recon or light tank role.

What is left over the Rhino can take on, and while generally reserved for Space Marines, other forces use them (such as the Ministerium). The Rhino is superlatively versatile, even more so than the Chimera.

The correct analogy is not a Soviet vehicle, but the US Sherman, whose chassis was used for a little bit of everything and was getting up-armored and refitted into the 1970s. Absent the Cold War arms race, the Sherman would probably still be in production today, just as the C-130 still trundles along with upgrade after upgrade.

The Chimera is the equivalent of the M-113, which has I think two dozen major variants.

You could say I'm cynical about GW's motives (guilty as charged), but from a fluff perspective, I don't like this this diversity. The Imperium is static, hostile to innovation and monolithic. It is totally in character for them to simply swap out weapons combinations for a very very limited pool of vehicles.

It is not in character for them to "rediscover" old designs and waste precious industrial capacity by retooling and creating new supply chains to support all these different vehicles. Indeed, the old fluff was very clear on this point about how only a small number of STC templates are used.

It also dovetailed with GW's (at the time) limited plastics capacity. As is often the case, their limited resources actually made the end product better.

Since I'm not current, maybe someone can explain what these new tanks do that a Leman Russ can't. If GW came up with a new, special weapon that only resides on one of these other tanks, I'd have a hard time believing it, giving how many variants of the Russ already exist. It would basically be saying "yes, this tank can mount every heavy weapon in the game, so we invented a new one to justify a new tank."

panzerfront14 wrote:
Its strange, I know the Macharius is supposed to be a Baneblade supplement yet it seems to slot in quite well as a Heavy tank to the Leman Russ's Medium Tank and the Baneblade's Super Heavy Tank.

Only because of rules not matching fluff. Fluff-wise its double main gun is supposed to be comparable to a Baneblade's single gun, letting it fill the same battlefield roles.

I know the Malcador is an older "fast tank" I always saw it as a heavy tank because while having worse armor than a Leman Russ it was larger, and seemed to carry substantially more armament.

The armament is almost identical, with the only difference being the Malcador having the option to take autocannons or lascannons in the sponsons and the LRBT getting multimeltas and plasma cannons instead. On the model the battle cannon bit is exactly identical to the battle cannon piece on the FW LRBT kit.


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Commissar von Toussaint wrote:
The Imperium has no near-peer adversary pushing the limits of tank design.

Correct. Most of the Impeium's adversaries are so far beyond the Imperium that calling them peers would be a joke. A Hammerhead, Falcon, etc, are to a LRBT what the latest MA12 Abrams is to the first WWI prototypes. The only peer-level adversaries the Imperium faces are traitor forces using Imperial equipment, and the occasional ork or tyranid force that gets plot armor to bring them up to the level of real vehicles.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Commissar von Toussaint wrote:
The focus on heavy tanks was only because GW started selling them at an immense markup.

To be fair, most of it is purely because GW let a bunch of IRL tank fanboys run a division of the company as their pet project and coming up with more tanks was fun. The Malcador and Macharius lines are both low-profit FW kits, as was the first move to take the Baneblade line out of Epic and give it a real 40k kit*. Same thing with a bunch of the lighter tank variants. The Dorn is the only heavy tank to start as a high-profit plastic kit, with a clear motive of selling a shiny new kit vs. giving proper rules support to the existing designs.

*Technically the Armorcast kit came first but it was nowhere near the quality of a real 40k model.

It is not in character for them to "rediscover" old designs and waste precious industrial capacity by retooling and creating new supply chains to support all these different vehicles.

Partially. However, even with the original fluff for the Baneblade it was noted that production of the tank is beyond the abilities of most forge world and demand exceeding supply has resulted in various counterfeit designs. The Macharius exists because the Imperium couldn't use a single design

The Malcador, on the other hand, embraces the idea of it being out of character to waste industrial capacity on multiple designs. It's explicitly an obsolete 30k-era design with very little modern production and most examples seen on 40k battlefields are ancient stockpiles being handed out to bottom-tier regiments that don't have enough priority to get LRBTs.

Since I'm not current, maybe someone can explain what these new tanks do that a Leman Russ can't.

Baneblade: take on things that are too big for a LRBT.
Shadowsword (and variants): kill titans.
Macharius: do the above, just not quite as well, and be available to units that can't get a Baneblade.
Malcador: technically has armor and a gun and would you rather have a 10,000 year old tank from the Crusade-era stockpile or no tank at all?
Dorn: be a high profit margin plastic kit that fills the roles of the units above but gives better shareholder value.

One of these things is not like the others.

Aecus Decimus wrote:


To be fair, most of it is purely because GW let a bunch of IRL tank fanboys run a division of the company as their pet project and coming up with more tanks was fun. The Malcador and Macharius lines are both low-profit FW kits, as was the first move to take the Baneblade line out of Epic and give it a real 40k kit*. Same thing with a bunch of the lighter tank variants. The Dorn is the only heavy tank to start as a high-profit plastic kit, with a clear motive of selling a shiny new kit vs. giving proper rules support to the existing designs.

*Technically the Armorcast kit came first but it was nowhere near the quality of a real 40k model.

I'm old enough to have seen the Armorcast super-heavies "in the wild." In the terrain-heavy boards of 2nd ed., they struggled to achieve much. In the more open battlefields of today, I suspect they are more effective.

Still, when you're dealing with an outfit that openly admits changing rules to facilitate sales, coming up with "in-universe" explanations seems like a fool's errand. I recall the days of 3rd when Terminators were pretty lousy and sales of the new plastics went nowhere because of it. GW then released new rules that made them much, much better and sales responded accordingly. Same with the Ordnance rules, which rendered sponson weapons point sinks and which also created Russ variants without battle cannon. And then there was the problem that the new rules for battle cannon made them ineffective against armored target. "Oh wait, we have a new model for that!" Etc.

I like the presence of Heavy Tanks honestly. A Russ likely is not up to the challenge of engaging some opponents, and in many cases Baneblades are just not present to handle them. I like the tank based diversity in chassis though I do wish the sculpt for the Rogal Dorn was better.

It is odd though that two Battlecannons are equal to the Baneblade's main gun. I figure the Baneblade is using something around a 210-203mm main gun while the Russ uses a 120mm cannon per forge world. relying upon real world data, for example shell crater analysis from the Soviet Union the 122mm cannons made shell craters about .70 meters deep and 3 meters wide, while the 152mm cannons would leave craters 1.8 meters deep and 5 meters wide. Assuming a similar scale is applicable for the Battlecannon and the Baneblade, the Baneblade's main gun would be far more effective than a twin Battlecannon arrangement.

That aside I figure being able to produce heavy tanks is a good choice since the IOM clearly does not operate Main Battle tanks they ascribe to the Light, Medium, Heavy and Superheavy school. I do like that point about the Leman Russ being the Sherman, seems more fitting than one of the T series tanks.

If those Rogal Dorns can operate as force multipliers, forcing say Tau Hammerheads to engage at shorter ranges or use better sensors/optics to pass along information to other tanks they could be potent assets. I like how the Guard presents itself, as men and machines fighting against whatever flavor of crazy is coming at them, and well the possible mismanagement committed by people either spinning up new production lines for these vehicles, or swapping older production lines to producing the Rogals.