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England: Newcastle

Do you think they’re setting this up?

I can’t tell whether we are meant to assume that the TVA/Kang are the most powerful thing in existence and Wanda wouldn’t be a big deal at all. Maybe they’ve arrested hundreds of Wanda variants. They’re an entirely different league and whatever they have planned for Wanda is a big deal in a small pond relatively speaking. She might have a role but not a central part of the fight.

Or, that her Chaos Magic with its reality warping is so dangerous precisely because it’s something the TVA can’t control or suppress. That they didn’t go anywhere near her in Westview because if she became aware of the TVA bad things would happen. Think like when the Watcher get the attention of Infinity Ultron in What If. Maybe that’s the set up?

Basically on the one side you have Lovecraftian Elder God magic. Like the Darkholds powers are from Cthon. On the other side you have Rick & Morty science with Kang the Conqueror. Council of Kangs, Council of Ricks. She’s an agent of Chaos. Whereas Kang is an agent of Order. Magic vs Technology. I just think that’s a neat clash to have and it would be a nice way of rounding all that prophecy stuff in Wandavision and MoM.



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I guess…..it depends.

Wanda’s abilities seem to be based largely on her own will. And we don’t really know much about Kang’s tech and abilities just yet.

   
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 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I guess…..it depends.

Wanda’s abilities seem to be based largely on her own will. And we don’t really know much about Kang’s tech and abilities just yet.


I think it’s more for the indication that the two storylines might be related. Like there definitely is a science vs magic theme in Loki. Him being a magic user isn’t strongly emphasised in previous shows and neither was Wandas but they’re all in on that now.

Because they could say Kang isn’t on same level as the TVA yet or that Wanda gets a power up. She eats Cthon like in the comics. It wouldn’t be very interesting if he could just turn everybodies powers off.

I mean that Aliath thing that He who remains has. Does he really want to risk Wanda getting near that? For all he knows she would just take the thing over. Hell she could just make a new reality at the End of Time out of all those broken pieces. 😄

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/01/28 21:56:34



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I will note that even if the TVA has dealt with X number of Wanda variants, “our” Wanda is the Scarlet Witch, which iirc was said to be only the singular one in the multiverse or something. Not that it matters because Wanda is like, totally dead and stuff, right?

 
   
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 AduroT wrote:
I will note that even if the TVA has dealt with X number of Wanda variants, “our” Wanda is the Scarlet Witch, which iirc was said to be only the singular one in the multiverse or something. Not that it matters because Wanda is like, totally dead and stuff, right?


Oh totally dead. I didn’t see no body. 😉

They wouldn’t be making two Wandavision spin off shows about Agatha and Vision if they didn’t have plans. I think they are going to adapt the Children’s Crusade comic where the Young Avengers go looking for her.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/01/28 22:00:17



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 Totalwar1402 wrote:
 AduroT wrote:
I will note that even if the TVA has dealt with X number of Wanda variants, “our” Wanda is the Scarlet Witch, which iirc was said to be only the singular one in the multiverse or something. Not that it matters because Wanda is like, totally dead and stuff, right?


Oh totally dead. I didn’t see no body. 😉

They wouldn’t be making two Wandavision spin off shows about Agatha and Vision if they didn’t have plans. I think they are going to adapt the Children’s Crusade comic where the Young Avengers go looking for her.



They better bring shovels and start digging out that mountain!

 
   
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I think they are setting up wanda to have a redeption in fixing the aftermath of kang. Playing a molecule man role for secret wars/battleworld.

Kang Dynasty is Kang destroying everything. Fragments of realities just mashing together. Then kid kang (iron lad) will stop them and Doom will seize their tech power.

God Emperor Doom is the big bad of Secret Wars, and when he gets defeated it will be wanda who rebuilds the universe from the fragments of the multiverse.


These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
 
   
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 Lance845 wrote:
I think they are setting up wanda to have a redeption in fixing the aftermath of kang. Playing a molecule man role for secret wars/battleworld.


Totally this. She’s prophesied to destroy the (battle)world.
   
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Wanda died.

Nothing, so far, has given us any indication that this isn't the truth, meaning they're not setting anything up involving her and [whoever].

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 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Wanda died.

Nothing, so far, has given us any indication that this isn't the truth, meaning they're not setting anything up involving her and [whoever].


There was a red flash from the middle of the collapsing mountain before it actually collapsed indicating that her powers triggered and saved her or she teleported away.

Agatha House of Harkness looks to be shaping up to be Childrens Crusade. Which means it's about Tommy and William looking for her.

Wonderman is coming out who just so happens to be her other major love interest besides Vision.



These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
 
   
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That they didn’t go anywhere near her in Westview because if she became aware of the TVA bad things would happen.


I'm not sure anything in Westview actually warranted the TVA's attention. She mind controlled a town, but I think that might be small potatoes as far as the TVA is concerned. She didn't manipulate time and I think that's more the sort of thing they're likely to respond to.

I don't know that they're deliberately setting up anything for Wanda to do later. Whether or not she actually died in MoM isn't important because both outcomes are hot garbage. Either she's actually dead with that piss poor ending to her story, or they contrive some total nonsense where she survived and her 'death' only served to shock the audience. I love the character to death, but they dropped the ball hard in her last appearance.
   
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 Lance845 wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Wanda died.

Nothing, so far, has given us any indication that this isn't the truth, meaning they're not setting anything up involving her and [whoever].


There was a red flash from the middle of the collapsing mountain before it actually collapsed indicating that her powers triggered and saved her or she teleported away.

Agatha House of Harkness looks to be shaping up to be Childrens Crusade. Which means it's about Tommy and William looking for her.

Wonderman is coming out who just so happens to be her other major love interest besides Vision.



For now? Wanda is dead to the world.

But, in terms of Comic Book Resurrections, nobody actually seeing, finding or looking for the body is a super easy place to start.

So six of one, half dozen of the other.

   
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 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

For now? Wanda is dead to the world.

But, in terms of Comic Book Resurrections, nobody actually seeing, finding or looking for the body is a super easy place to start.

So six of one, half dozen of the other.

There's an old saying about death in comic books and that is "No one stays dead except Bucky, Jason Todd, and Uncle Ben". Since that time, both Bucky and Jason Todd have come back from death, and even Uncle Ben came back for a few minutes in Amazing Spider-Man #500.

'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents
cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable
defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'

- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty
Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
 
   
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Uncle Ben and Batman’s parents both come back periodically so they can have some emotional time and end it with No, I have to die so a great hero can be born.

 
   
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 creeping-deth87 wrote:
That they didn’t go anywhere near her in Westview because if she became aware of the TVA bad things would happen.


I'm not sure anything in Westview actually warranted the TVA's attention. She mind controlled a town, but I think that might be small potatoes as far as the TVA is concerned. She didn't manipulate time and I think that's more the sort of thing they're likely to respond to.


TVA does not care if you manipulate time as long as you manipulate time in the sequence of events that results in "He Who Remains" winning.
   
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Also, the trouble with the TVA interfering is you don’t know they’ve interfered. They could’ve made multiple trips to Westview to nudge things how they want, and no bugger would be any the wiser.

   
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 Totalwar1402 wrote:
Because they could say Kang isn’t on same level as the TVA yet or that Wanda gets a power up. She eats Cthon like in the comics. It wouldn’t be very interesting if he could just turn everybodies powers off.


My God! Hawkeye would become the most powerful avenger!
   
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 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Also, the trouble with the TVA interfering is you don’t know they’ve interfered. They could’ve made multiple trips to Westview to nudge things how they want, and no bugger would be any the wiser.

Technically they are not nudging things one way or another. They just eliminate everything else. They trim the fat so to speak so that nothing else is left but what they want. The "sacred timeline" would never know they existed because they never actually interfere in the sacred time line by protocol.


These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
 
   
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Well…so they say. Or perhaps more accurately? So they’re told.

   
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 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Well…so they say. Or perhaps more accurately? So they’re told.


Yeah I had a hard time following the TVA because it’s both about the multiverse and time travel. But even though you have a sacred timeline there is still some variance (how was Sylvie not an immediate break).

Also I think we later learn they have some limits. For example they don’t destroy an entire reality they just teleport the offending part before it red lines and diverges totally. Even then they have to rely on Alioth to destroy those things at the end of time.

It’s one of those issues of having so many ultimate cosmic power things. Getting a sense of where everybody stands relative to one another.


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 Totalwar1402 wrote:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Well…so they say. Or perhaps more accurately? So they’re told.


Yeah I had a hard time following the TVA because it’s both about the multiverse and time travel. But even though you have a sacred timeline there is still some variance (how was Sylvie not an immediate break).

Also I think we later learn they have some limits. For example they don’t destroy an entire reality they just teleport the offending part before it red lines and diverges totally. Even then they have to rely on Alioth to destroy those things at the end of time.

It’s one of those issues of having so many ultimate cosmic power things. Getting a sense of where everybody stands relative to one another.


This and other thoughts I have regarding the TVA are exactly why I don’t put much weight on it as a reliable source.

None of the TVA agents knew the truth? That comes out in the show - but not widely.

I suspect it’s the sort of fit up where He Who Will Become Kang, and his future shenanigans, is something general causality is hostile toward. Hence the ongoing, unbending “no seriously you started pruning and now you’re committed because that just how it goes” duty of his TVA, and why he keeps many things to himself.

   
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Yeah I mean what was up with the ending with Kang in charge of the TVA? Was that a multiverse version of it or had Kang changed things to put himself at the top.



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So maybe this helps. This is the way I have explained it to others with evidence in the movies/shows.

Think of the Sacred Time Line as a river. It has a beginning. It has an end. And the water that is running through it is flowing. That bit is really important. The water in the river at any given point moves with the flow of the river followed by more water. That is why we experience the time line moving forward. Our single instant of existence is a atom of water in the river moving along. And there are endless multitudes of other water atoms around, ahead, and behind us. So an event doesn't happen once and then it's done. It's happening over and over and over again endlessly.

The TVA is not policing a singular set of events. They are watching over the flow of the river and making sure it doesn't have something cause it to over flow at some point and create a branch.

Here is some evidence for what we have so far.

1) If there was a singular set of events that happened once then all nexus events would occur simultaneously from the TVAs outside of time perspective. They are not. They have to "wait" for something to go wrong and then step in.

2) If it was all happening once and simultaneously then once they fixed all the nexus events and kept the river within it's banks they wouldn't have a reason to exist any more.



So next, the river ebbs and flows. Each iteration of events has slight variations in it. Some dust was in a different spot. The wind was slightly stronger. Tony Stark had a hiccup. As long as these variations don't cause a cascade of changes and the flow of the river stays on course then it doesn't matter and the TVA both doesn't notice and doesn't step in.

Consider that the expression of the sacred time line is a wavy line that is constantly moving and adjusting. Those are all the little variations in all the constant iterations of time expressing itself over and over again.

If this wasn't the case the time line wouldn't be expressed that way. It would be a straight flat line. A singular set of events being expressed in a singular way one time. When the Avengers traveled back in time they swam upstream to those points in the river. They interacted with new atoms of water that were SO similar as to be indistinguishable because the river is within it's banks and indistinguishable. You can mess with everyone in Pompeii and it doesn't create a branch because it doesn't change future events. But you also won't run into infinite versions of yourself because you are all in different atoms of water flowing along the time line. Cap won't remember fighting himself because it wasn't HIM that was fighting himself in the past. As Hulk explains in the movie. Those movies are ridiculous and wrong.



So imagine when Kang set all this up. There is a bunch of branching rivers. A massive network of time lines. And he decides that to get to x eventuality he needs the avengers to loose infinity war and time travel in end game. He find the river that has that, and he prunes all the branches that don't do that until there is nothing left but a constant flowing multitude of expressions of the avengers traveling back to get the stones. This could even be about the avengers inventing their primitive version of time travel so that Kang can eventually expand on and perfect it as multiversal travel.

Those events are repeating (new water) over and over again, infinitely. But when something is different enough it doesn't just create the little ebbs and flows in the line it breaks off into a new branch. The TVA detects it. The TVA goes and prunes it. Keeping the singular time line on track for a singular end.



With the Alioth thing, by removing the offending part, there is no longer anything to cause the divergence. They essentially reinforce the river bank, and the water moves back into place.


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 Totalwar1402 wrote:
Yeah I mean what was up with the ending with Kang in charge of the TVA? Was that a multiverse version of it or had Kang changed things to put himself at the top.



Kang won the multiverse war and then created the TVA to turn the multiverse into a single verse, the single Sacred timeline that leads to his existence.

I wonder if he needs to stay at the end of time for his own existence. After all, he is the product of his experiences in a multiversal war that …never happened (now). If he rejoins the universe, does causality get him and turn him into a Kang who never fought a multiversal war?

   
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 Totalwar1402 wrote:

Yeah I had a hard time following the TVA because it’s both about the multiverse and time travel. But even though you have a sacred timeline there is still some variance (how was Sylvie not an immediate break).


Fun thought exercise on this one. If you think about it, Loki's gender isn't actually relevant to his role in the timeline. As long as Sylvie sets up an overly complicated scheme to prove herself to Odin, falls off the shattered Bifrost, leads Thanos's army with the Mind Stone to take the Tesseract, supplants Odin and gets him killed, restores Surtur and takes the Tesseract before getting killed by Thanos..... technically there's nothing there that would create a detectible divergence from the sacred timeline. Stepping off script is what makes her a target, not the role she was cast in.
   
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 LunarSol wrote:
 Totalwar1402 wrote:

Yeah I had a hard time following the TVA because it’s both about the multiverse and time travel. But even though you have a sacred timeline there is still some variance (how was Sylvie not an immediate break).


Fun thought exercise on this one. If you think about it, Loki's gender isn't actually relevant to his role in the timeline. As long as Sylvie sets up an overly complicated scheme to prove herself to Odin, falls off the shattered Bifrost, leads Thanos's army with the Mind Stone to take the Tesseract, supplants Odin and gets him killed, restores Surtur and takes the Tesseract before getting killed by Thanos..... technically there's nothing there that would create a detectible divergence from the sacred timeline. Stepping off script is what makes her a target, not the role she was cast in.


Yeah, plus Kangs not really keeping a single timeline. He’s just pruning the ones that create variants of himself. Hence why he’s able to alter things for Loki.




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 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
 Totalwar1402 wrote:
Yeah I mean what was up with the ending with Kang in charge of the TVA? Was that a multiverse version of it or had Kang changed things to put himself at the top.



Kang won the multiverse war and then created the TVA to turn the multiverse into a single verse, the single Sacred timeline that leads to his existence.

I wonder if he needs to stay at the end of time for his own existence. After all, he is the product of his experiences in a multiversal war that …never happened (now). If he rejoins the universe, does causality get him and turn him into a Kang who never fought a multiversal war?


Well that’s the thing. It’s really a multiverse as opposed to time travel. A guy above put it across best as a river that’s constantly repeating with each droplet being its own universe. In which case there’s no causality. He’s the last sliver of a now gone universe at the End of Time.

Presumably he created a timeline where the only version of himself is this quiet guy who never discovers this technology. Otherwise you should still have a Council of Kangs even if they are all like him piling up.

See this is why Galactus is an easier villain to work with. 😄

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/01/31 22:25:56



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 LunarSol wrote:
 Totalwar1402 wrote:

Yeah I had a hard time following the TVA because it’s both about the multiverse and time travel. But even though you have a sacred timeline there is still some variance (how was Sylvie not an immediate break).


Fun thought exercise on this one. If you think about it, Loki's gender isn't actually relevant to his role in the timeline. As long as Sylvie sets up an overly complicated scheme to prove herself to Odin, falls off the shattered Bifrost, leads Thanos's army with the Mind Stone to take the Tesseract, supplants Odin and gets him killed, restores Surtur and takes the Tesseract before getting killed by Thanos..... technically there's nothing there that would create a detectible divergence from the sacred timeline. Stepping off script is what makes her a target, not the role she was cast in.


Except, in Loki, they flashback to when they nab her. As a small child, still playing with wooden horses or whatever. She's done nothing at all to create a divergence, other than being born. Grabbing and trying to erase her and failing _is_ the only noticeable divergence in her life.

Which is exactly what Kang expects when they both show up at the House at the End of Time. Diverging her is part of his plan... to get one of them to take his role (according to him, but unreliable narrator warnings apply, since he seems perfectly happy with any outcome of their little chat).

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2023/01/31 22:51:11


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BTW two things:

- Do you think He Who Remains had a slight Rick from Rick & Morty vibe? I don’t know if that was deliberate or just because I know a little bit about the Council of Kangs/Ricks. So playing him up as the eccentric scientist.

- Also do you think this means He Who Remains Kang is going to show up?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/01/31 23:22:32



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Voss wrote:
 LunarSol wrote:
 Totalwar1402 wrote:

Yeah I had a hard time following the TVA because it’s both about the multiverse and time travel. But even though you have a sacred timeline there is still some variance (how was Sylvie not an immediate break).


Fun thought exercise on this one. If you think about it, Loki's gender isn't actually relevant to his role in the timeline. As long as Sylvie sets up an overly complicated scheme to prove herself to Odin, falls off the shattered Bifrost, leads Thanos's army with the Mind Stone to take the Tesseract, supplants Odin and gets him killed, restores Surtur and takes the Tesseract before getting killed by Thanos..... technically there's nothing there that would create a detectible divergence from the sacred timeline. Stepping off script is what makes her a target, not the role she was cast in.


Except, in Loki, they flashback to when they nab her. As a small child, still playing with wooden horses or whatever. She's done nothing at all to create a divergence, other than being born. Grabbing and trying to erase her and failing _is_ the only noticeable divergence in her life.

Which is exactly what Kang expects when they both show up at the House at the End of Time. Diverging her is part of his plan... to get one of them to take his role (according to him, but unreliable narrator warnings apply, since he seems perfectly happy with any outcome of their little chat).


But, He Who Remains explains that. He knew her whole life. He mapped it all out and she simply walked down the road he laid out for her. Just like the TVA getting a ping on them in lementis, the ping wasn't because they caused a disturbance, the ping was because kang sent the ping.


These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
 
   
 
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