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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





I know that shock and awe are part of the astartes arsenal so looking badass in a standout suit of power armour helps but are their any instances of SM using camouflage or repainting their armour to suit an environment?

I doubt orks care about the colour of your armour so going camo for surprise attacks makes sense
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





Well there are the scouts with Cloaks, and the new Primaris ones too.
They have camp cloaks draped over them to be better at blending in to environments.

Armour, I’m sure in some instances.

Alpha Legion repaint their Armour to hide all the time
   
Made in gb
Moustache-twirling Princeps




United Kingdom

While some Chapters will scream "Camouflage is the colour of cowardice!", others are more practical. During the Badab War some Chapters used actual camouflage (Raptors, Raven Guard) while others disguised themselves as other Chapters (Astral Claws/Tiger Claws).
   
Made in gb
Junior Officer with Laspistol





The Shire(s)

Most Chapters do use camo when necessary. This is a night world livery.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/02/02 10:00:32


 ChargerIIC wrote:
If algae farm paste with a little bit of your grandfather in it isn't Grimdark I don't know what is.
 
   
Made in gb
Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon






Going right back to Rogue Trader, there were various examples of Space Marines in camo patterns.

However. It tends to be engagement to engagement.

In…I want to say 5th Ed, when you could make custom Chapters using traits? One “downside” trait was Pride In Your Colours (or similar) where you couldn’t make use of cover saves or something like that.

In short? Probably fairly rare, but not unheard of. As noted Marines kind of want you to know your doom is coming, as that’s part of their shtick. And given they favour rapid “cut off the head” assaults, they probably don’t need camo in many instances.

   
Made in us
Master Engineer with a Brace of Pistols





washington state USA

The chapter most well known for using cammo in the old lore are the executioners. even though they are a successor of the imperial fists who "take pride in their colors" and refuse to be anything but yellow so the enemy may know who they are fighting.



While it isn't cammo as we normally think of it in this sense the raptors also use olive drab as the standard heraldry.








GAMES-DUST1947/infinity/B5 wars/epic 40K/5th ed 40K/victory at sea/warmachine/battle tactics/monpoc/battletech/battlefleet gothic/castles in the sky,/heavy gear 
   
Made in fi
Buttons Should Be Brass, Not Gold!






Not up to date with modern day Astartes lore, but RT era lore talked a bit about camouflage. Back then, some Marine units were even equipped with cameleoline built in to their Power Armour!

Here's an interesting bit regarding camo from White Dwarf #105:

"Marines are warriors of a wholly practical devotional order. Whilst their endless liturgies and prayer may appear, to the uninitiated, to be mere superstition, they serve an important and real function. For example, while preserving the accumulated experience of millennia, the doctrinal lore of camouflage schemes is not so dogmatic as to prevent the adoption of appropriate or innovative colours and patterns where appropriate. So, while there are innumerable official or approved colour schemes, there are also many which have been evolved by individual chapters to meet their particular requirements in certain situations.

Some Marine chapters adhere rigidly to the traditional patterns. The chapter of the Red Scorpions not only sticks strictly to the lore of camouflage handed down from their original founding and embodied in the Codex Imperialis, but views any deviance from this practice as tantamount to heresy. This has led to the Red Scorpions actually refusing to fight alongside other Marine chapters on a number of occasions - one of the reasons why they were mostly confined to space lane duties during the Badab War. The Commanders of the Imperial Guard are less stringent about such things than Marines, and will sometimes design their own schemes for a specific campaign.

Wherever they may be serving, Land Raiders may sometimes appear garish in comparison to the camouflage schemes evolved for use in the limited range of combat environments offered by twentieth-century Earth. A Land Raider camouflaged for use in the spectacular cobalt chromate deserts of Galen V, for instance, would be highly conspicuous in a yellow-brown silicone oxide desert beneath Earth's yellow sun.

Many schemes show no attempt at camouflage as such, but consist of solid heraldic colours proclaiming the identity of the occupants as surely as the shield of a medieval knight. Indeed, there are some Marine chapters whose tradition actually forbids the use of camouflage on the grounds that "the colours of cowardice are wholly inappropriate to a true warrior." This attitude, although by no means rare amongst the Legiones Astartes, is not officially recognised and is not embodied within the ancient Codex Imperialis.

Most strange of all are the fully pictorial designs painted onto Land Raiders both by Marines and by the Imperial Guard. These take the form of actual paintings of battle scenes or of famous events in the history of the unit concerned. Although this is a spectacular example of vehicle decoration, machines rarely enter the battle zone wearing such lavish paint schemes."
   
Made in ru
Longtime Dakkanaut





Olive makes sense if you based on a world with lots of forests
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





There is a short story, Black Dawn, where The Emperors Warbringers chapter are stated to use camouflage.
   
Made in us
Terrifying Doombull




mrFickle wrote:
I know that shock and awe are part of the astartes arsenal so looking badass in a standout suit of power armour helps but are their any instances of SM using camouflage or repainting their armour to suit an environment?


Yes. Its still part of the in-universe Codex Astartes (part of which is just livery rules) but for game/sales purposes GW has quietly abandoned it in favor of recognizable color schemes. Marketing shrinks the universe.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/02/02 15:43:05


Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
Made in us
Master Engineer with a Brace of Pistols





washington state USA

mrFickle wrote:
Olive makes sense if you based on a world with lots of forests

It makes even more sense when you see that the chapter specializes in jungle warfare and infiltration





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Made in gb
Preparing the Invasion of Terra






A lot of Chapters like to make a statement when they make war. The idea of a bunch of superhuman power-armoured killers coming at you with not a thought for concealment does a lot for damaging morale.
The Codex does say that Marines should use camo but only some use it beyond the Scout companies such as the Raven Guard (i.e. just being sneaky) and Raptors.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





When I created the Iron Defenders chapter (Ultramarine successors, natch) I decided that their "full dress" colors were Prussian Blue and White.

I never bothered to paint a model up in it, though, because their tactical scheme was Feldgrau from head to toe (including the weapon). Company colors were painted on the vents of the backpack and the Iron Cross was permitted on the shoulders, but no other insignia was permitted.

It doesn't sound like much (and was perfectly suited to my novice painting skills), and when I would get them out, my opponents would sneer at their drab colors. However, once I placed them in a ruined building or behind girders, they became much more respectful because they were practically invisible.

More than once we used the blast templates to determine line of sight because my marines were so hard to see.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2023/02/02 22:22:03


Want a better way to do fantasy/historical miniatures battles?  Try Conqueror: Fields of Victory.

Do you like Star Wars but find the prequels and sequels disappointing?  Man of Destiny is the book series for you.

My 2nd edition Warhammer 40k resource page. Check out my other stuff at https://www.ahlloyd.com 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Glad someone mentioned the Raptors.

As others have pointed out, camouflage paint schemes are used sometimes by some chapters. While the real excuse is that it's fun to see cool colors, my headcanon is that there are some logistical reasons for not switching up their armor colors all the time.

Like, paint is apparently a thing the imperium makes, but exactly how many tanks of how many different colors of paint do you bother to source and transport on a given battle barge? You can't be sure whether you'll be fighting on a purple crystal planet or in a brown swamp or a green jungle or a grey city or a red desert next week. Sourcing and carrying around enough paint to cover all probable scenarios probably wouldn't be a huge deal for a chapter, but it seems like the sort of thing you have to start planning around. Then again, they presumably carry around some paint as we see them patching up armor and replacing components without being forced to leave the replacement parts unpainted, so...

There's also the issue that marines might literally just not want to spend the time letting the paint dry. From BL novels, marines on patrol/responding to distress calls seem to show up, immediately start assessing how to go about fixing the local problem, and then immediately get to work doing that. They might not have enough time to paint their armor and let it dry enough to avoid wet paint being a liability in the time between identifying where they'll be fighting and actually showing up for that fight. Like, even if you know what kind of planet you're traveling towards, it might be a coin flip as to whether you're going to be fighting in the red sand wastes that dominate most of the planet or one of the gunmetal gray manufactorums that constitute most of the strategic points on the planet.

Also worth noting that some Alpha Legion have been known to have nifty high-tech armor that can change color to help them impersonate other factions. Presumably you could just change your colors to match the terrain as well.


ATTENTION
. Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
 
   
Made in us
Master Engineer with a Brace of Pistols





washington state USA

Commissar von Toussaint




As it so happens my Salamanders successor army i built around 5th edition and kept adding to has my favorite color combo of grey and black. they fight more like blood angels at times with a focus on airborne assault but, with flamers and melta's


I have on more than one occasion got them "lost" in urban terrain.



This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/02/03 07:53:26






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Made in us
The Marine Standing Behind Marneus Calgar





Upstate, New York

Out of the background on on to the tabletop:

One problem with camo is that it works. I use camo on my scouts/phobos units. I have also forgotten to shoot with them due to them blending in. The counter-point to that is sometimes they avoided getting shot at. Sometimes being forgotten can win you games.

Camo, when done properly, also makes for boring game pieces. You blur lines, hide details. Make sure nothing catches the eye. On an actual battlefield? Life saving. For a miniature? Dull. I paint camo like Hollywood makes movies based on real events. Sure, the core is mostly there, but there are more car chases and explosions. Bight power cables, polished brightwork. Makes them more fun to look at.

Spoiler:




   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




mrFickle wrote:


I doubt orks care about the colour of your armour so going camo for surprise attacks makes sense



Pfft. Faith in the Emperor is all they need.


They're not wearing their livery for the orks to be afraid, they're wearing their livery for themselves first and foremost and their own pride. Astartes peer pressure.

But on topic, unconventional chapters like the Raptors love camo. They might be olive drab anyway, but they'll swap that out in a heartbeat if it suits.

greatest band in the universe: machine supremacy

"Punch your fist in the air and hold your Gameboy aloft like the warrior you are" 
   
Made in gb
Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon






Deadnight wrote:
mrFickle wrote:


I doubt orks care about the colour of your armour so going camo for surprise attacks makes sense



Pfft. Faith in the Emperor is all they need.


They're not wearing their livery for the orks to be afraid, they're wearing their livery for themselves first and foremost and their own pride. Astartes peer pressure.

But on topic, unconventional chapters like the Raptors love camo. They might be olive drab anyway, but they'll swap that out in a heartbeat if it suits.


Ahh. But the psychological effect does work against Orks - just in a different way to rebels and that.

See, Orks love a fight. Marines are good at fighting. Claiming a Beakie’s helmet is well thought of in Orky circles. And when you’re fighting against mixed enemies (here we’ll assume Guard with Astartes support), the Bosses are going to want to claim the glory of duffing over Beakies.

That can be used to Imperial advantage, drawing more heat than the Marine’s numbers might normally expect - and the self appointed cream of the Orky forces. Any damage done against Orky Bosses kind of counts double - more so if you get lucky and not only draw out the Warboss, but manage to kill him.

To do that? You kind of want to be visible. Yes you may want camouflaged troops as well, but it all starts with a great big OVER HERE YOU SIZABLE LADY’S CHEMISE! type statement.

   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Yeah ok, i'll.accept that.

Wear the most garish armour possible. Be a peacock.

Step out.

Yell 'come an' 'ave a go if ye think yer 'ard enough profit.

greatest band in the universe: machine supremacy

"Punch your fist in the air and hold your Gameboy aloft like the warrior you are" 
   
Made in gb
Leader of the Sept







I get the heraldry thing, but marine armour also give you lovely big plates to get a good disruptive pattern going though


Please excuse any spelling errors. I use a tablet frequently and software keyboards are a pain!

Terranwing - w3;d1;l1
51st Dunedinw2;d0;l0
Cadre Coronal Afterglow w1;d0;l0 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Nevelon wrote:


Camo, when done properly, also makes for boring game pieces. You blur lines, hide details. Make sure nothing catches the eye. On an actual battlefield? Life saving. For a miniature? Dull.


After I did the Marines, I played around with other color schemes. I had a Praetorian IG unit that was painted up like the Boer War in Khaki.

Anyhow, my Chaos Marines also use camo, but in suitably Chaotic colors so they contrast with my Imperials.

With Orks, I also use some camo, but it's of the Walmart fashion variety - green on blaze orange or light green with canary yellow overlaying it.

As for repainting, that would happen en route if it was needed but given the prevalence of hive worlds, something designed to blend in with urban areas seems a safer bet than woodland patterns.

Want a better way to do fantasy/historical miniatures battles?  Try Conqueror: Fields of Victory.

Do you like Star Wars but find the prequels and sequels disappointing?  Man of Destiny is the book series for you.

My 2nd edition Warhammer 40k resource page. Check out my other stuff at https://www.ahlloyd.com 
   
Made in gb
Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon






Interestingly, on garish camo patterns? The PDF in Duty Calls has just that. Always puts me in mind of later, woeful GI Joe Toys, when the 90’s had its wicked, dayglo neon way with the venerable toy line.

Also fun fact? During the African campaigns of WW2, the SAS used pink to camouflage their Range Rovers.

   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Interestingly, on garish camo patterns? The PDF in Duty Calls has just that. Always puts me in mind of later, woeful GI Joe Toys, when the 90’s had its wicked, dayglo neon way with the venerable toy line.

Also fun fact? During the African campaigns of WW2, the SAS used pink to camouflage their Range Rovers.


My Eldar Harlequin proxies use a selection of 'dazzle' schemes.

Love the dazzle.

Want a better way to do fantasy/historical miniatures battles?  Try Conqueror: Fields of Victory.

Do you like Star Wars but find the prequels and sequels disappointing?  Man of Destiny is the book series for you.

My 2nd edition Warhammer 40k resource page. Check out my other stuff at https://www.ahlloyd.com 
   
Made in se
Stubborn Hammerer




Sweden

"Camouflage is the colour of fear."

Though it should be remembered that in bonkers 40k, camouflage patterns themselves may in some cases have become traditional heraldry, probably growing rigid and not to be adapted to whatever landscape or season you are currently fighting in.

There is easily space for camo on Space Marines even after Rogue Trader.

Also, actually camouflaging troops to the point where both you and the opponent forgets about them is a recurring problem, a charming problem. It's mostly the player who owns the camouflaged troops who forgets them, in my experience. Similar to how Dwarf Miners and Skaven Gutter runners are all too easily forgotten about in WHFB. It is common for the opponent to remind the forgetful player by asking about them, whether intentionally or not.

Cheers

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/02/04 17:50:26


   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Karak Norn Clansman wrote:

Also, actually camouflaging troops to the point where both you and the opponent forgets about them is a recurring problem, a charming problem.


The Platonic ideal is that the opponent forgets about them right up until they open fire.

Always important to make sure you conceal the troops *and* the Overwatch marker.

Want a better way to do fantasy/historical miniatures battles?  Try Conqueror: Fields of Victory.

Do you like Star Wars but find the prequels and sequels disappointing?  Man of Destiny is the book series for you.

My 2nd edition Warhammer 40k resource page. Check out my other stuff at https://www.ahlloyd.com 
   
Made in fi
Buttons Should Be Brass, Not Gold!






I like the idea of "Cameleoline as paint". Would make it trivial to alter camo patterns to match any environment.

OTOH I also like the idea of wrong coloured camo on the battlefield just because the particular camo pattern is considered "sacred". In fact, its something I'll be leaning into in the future.

Wrong type of camo which sticks out like a sore thumb, its like the equivalent of painting for flare, just like what we currently have going on for the vast majority of Chapters
   
Made in fr
Perfect Shot Ultramarine Predator Pilot




TBH there's no real point to camo on marines. They're close-range shock troops created to smash the enemy as dramatically and horrifyingly as possible. Yeah, they have some token ranged support but the heart of the army is charging the enemy while screaming obscenities and waving a giant chainsaw sword. Being seen is the entire point, if you are successfully camouflaged the enemy does not know they need to be afraid.

Plus there's the fact that visual camouflage is of near-zero value against higher-end factions. Being hard to see with the naked eye is great when your enemy is poorly equipped PDF or orks but it does absolutely nothing when IR vision is standard issue. You can't beat the laws of thermodynamics, all that cool stuff power armor is capable of generates a ton of waste heat. Heat sinks can cover it for a short time at the cost of significant additional mass and volume to carry but eventually even the sneakiest marine is going to be a bright glowing beacon in the IR spectrum. Then there's image processing software to consider. A camo pattern might fool a human brain but it won't work nearly as well against a software algorithm that isolates the moving pixels from each video frame and highlights the marine for the user. And who knows what senses an Eldar psyker or Tyranid hunter organism might have. Far better to rely on shock assaults, butchering the enemy before they can use their fancy technology.
   
Made in gb
Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon






 tauist wrote:
I like the idea of "Cameleoline as paint". Would make it trivial to alter camo patterns to match any environment.

OTOH I also like the idea of wrong coloured camo on the battlefield just because the particular camo pattern is considered "sacred". In fact, its something I'll be leaning into in the future.

Wrong type of camo which sticks out like a sore thumb, its like the equivalent of painting for flare, just like what we currently have going on for the vast majority of Chapters



Or simply requisitioning Arctic Camouflage, then receiving Jungle Camouflage instead.

   
Made in gb
Leader of the Sept







Aecus Decimus wrote:
TBH there's no real point to camo on marines. They're close-range shock troops created to smash the enemy as dramatically and horrifyingly as possible. Yeah, they have some token ranged support but the heart of the army is charging the enemy while screaming obscenities and waving a giant chainsaw sword. Being seen is the entire point, if you are successfully camouflaged the enemy does not know they need to be afraid.

Plus there's the fact that visual camouflage is of near-zero value against higher-end factions. Being hard to see with the naked eye is great when your enemy is poorly equipped PDF or orks but it does absolutely nothing when IR vision is standard issue. You can't beat the laws of thermodynamics, all that cool stuff power armor is capable of generates a ton of waste heat. Heat sinks can cover it for a short time at the cost of significant additional mass and volume to carry but eventually even the sneakiest marine is going to be a bright glowing beacon in the IR spectrum. Then there's image processing software to consider. A camo pattern might fool a human brain but it won't work nearly as well against a software algorithm that isolates the moving pixels from each video frame and highlights the marine for the user. And who knows what senses an Eldar psyker or Tyranid hunter organism might have. Far better to rely on shock assaults, butchering the enemy before they can use their fancy technology.


Fair points, but a range of horror films (and lictors) work on the basis that it’s pretty scary not being able to see the Killy monster properly.

Also a massive part of imperial combat actions is against unaugmented humans. There may well be chapters that specialise in just murderizing humans where a bit of camo would help in reducing casualties as they close the distance.

Please excuse any spelling errors. I use a tablet frequently and software keyboards are a pain!

Terranwing - w3;d1;l1
51st Dunedinw2;d0;l0
Cadre Coronal Afterglow w1;d0;l0 
   
Made in fi
Buttons Should Be Brass, Not Gold!






Aecus Decimus wrote:
TBH there's no real point to camo on marines. They're close-range shock troops created to smash the enemy as dramatically and horrifyingly as possible. Yeah, they have some token ranged support but the heart of the army is charging the enemy while screaming obscenities and waving a giant chainsaw sword. Being seen is the entire point, if you are successfully camouflaged the enemy does not know they need to be afraid.

Plus there's the fact that visual camouflage is of near-zero value against higher-end factions. Being hard to see with the naked eye is great when your enemy is poorly equipped PDF or orks but it does absolutely nothing when IR vision is standard issue. You can't beat the laws of thermodynamics, all that cool stuff power armor is capable of generates a ton of waste heat. Heat sinks can cover it for a short time at the cost of significant additional mass and volume to carry but eventually even the sneakiest marine is going to be a bright glowing beacon in the IR spectrum. Then there's image processing software to consider. A camo pattern might fool a human brain but it won't work nearly as well against a software algorithm that isolates the moving pixels from each video frame and highlights the marine for the user. And who knows what senses an Eldar psyker or Tyranid hunter organism might have. Far better to rely on shock assaults, butchering the enemy before they can use their fancy technology.


Not everyone sees marines just as chainsword flailing loonies yelling gothic to their enemies (would they even understand it?). They can be as nuanced as you make them. In fact, for my personal lore sensibilities, Marine armies spamming CC infantry aren't even fluffy, that just sounds like a counts-as Ork army. Melee is risky for both opponents, Astartes are a prescious resource, geneseed super valuable.

Way I see it, some Chapters / Strike Forces use exclusively shock tactics, while others use Mechanized forces and favour long range weaponry, yet others mix and match both when applicable. Space Marines are not a homogenous blob who all act the same way (see Horus Heresy as an example)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/02/05 13:41:52


 
   
 
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