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Out of curiosity I asked Chat GPT to build me an army list and it did it super quick, I’m so impressed it even knows what a necron is. What do you think of the list it built bearing in mind it only has limited info post 2021.
This thread is really more about the possibility of getting AI to do lists and how that might affect the meta in the future
Can you write me a 2000pt necron army list for Warhammer 40K with Trazyn as the HQ
Sure, here is a 2000-point Necron army list with Trazyn as the HQ:
This army list features a Sautekh Dynasty battalion detachment as the main force, with Trazyn the Infinite and a Cryptek leading three units of Necron Warriors, a Ghost Ark transport, a Doomsday Ark heavy support unit, and a single Annihilation Barge. The Canoptek Wraiths serve as fast attack support, able to quickly move across the battlefield and engage enemy units in melee combat.
The outrider detachment provides additional fast-moving support in the form of multiple squads of Canoptek Scarab Swarms, while the spearhead detachment features an Overlord with a Voidscythe and a Resurrection Orb, leading a Catacomb Command Barge and three Canoptek Spyders for additional heavy support.
Overall, this army list offers a balanced mix of infantry, fast attack, and heavy support units, providing a strong and adaptable force that can handle a variety of threats on the battlefield.
Apart from illegal(how many scarab swarm slots?) It's also bad as hell. Seeing gw games are so simple making optimal list isn't hard for humans so you can make lists that are way better by reading codex once through
Hell even kids can outdesign that list
Stupid ai gives also 2500 pts list when requested 2000...
Also pre-aoo wastes most of cp on detachments.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2023/03/03 09:37:17
Haha didn’t notice the 2500 points at the bottom, but as its conversational Ao you can ask it to refin the list in one way or the other. But I wonder if it’s just copy and pasting a list from somewhere on the net or if it’s building it using the rules (attempting to use them)
tneva82 wrote: Apart from illegal(how many scarab swarm slots?) It's also bad as hell. Seeing gw games are so simple making optimal list isn't hard for humans so you can make lists that are way better by reading codex once through
Hell even kids can outdesign that list
Stupid ai gives also 2500 pts list when requested 2000...
Also pre-aoo wastes most of cp on detachments.
While it didn't follow the instructions to make a 2Kpt list, & the quality of the list is questionable, it didnt build an illegal list.
Ro3 only applies in matched play.
Matched play wasn't requested, isn't the only form of play, and isn't the only form of play where you might use points. And AoO is not the only choice of Detachment Charts....
It's a chat both program. It can't read your mind (yet). So if you want Matched Play AoO restrictions? Then you have to TELL IT that.
mrFickle wrote: Haha didn’t notice the 2500 points at the bottom, but as its conversational Ao you can ask it to refin the list in one way or the other. But I wonder if it’s just copy and pasting a list from somewhere on the net or if it’s building it using the rules (attempting to use them)
I doubt the bot bought a copy of the Codex, so yeah, I'm betting it got it's list from other people making one and posting it online. The question for me is - did they just reprint one popular (or not) list or did it search enough lists to break them up.
tneva82 wrote: Apart from illegal(how many scarab swarm slots?) It's also bad as hell. Seeing gw games are so simple making optimal list isn't hard for humans so you can make lists that are way better by reading codex once through
Hell even kids can outdesign that list
Stupid ai gives also 2500 pts list when requested 2000...
Also pre-aoo wastes most of cp on detachments.
While it didn't follow the instructions to make a 2Kpt list, & the quality of the list is questionable, it didnt build an illegal list.
Ro3 only applies in matched play.
Matched play wasn't requested, isn't the only form of play, and isn't the only form of play where you might use points. And AoO is not the only choice of Detachment Charts....
It's a chat both program. It can't read your mind (yet). So if you want Matched Play AoO restrictions? Then you have to TELL IT that.
If it's narrative then you don't use points either. And it didn't specify open either. So it's not list for any mode then
With stuff like 'AI' and bots, treat is like making a wish.
How could it possibly go wrong?
These things are computers at the core, so the old adage of "Garbage in, garbage out" will apply. Tell it EXACTLY what you want. If there is any ambiguity, it will creep in somehow.
Anyway, list making is a personal thing, and is part of the game. People enjoy making lists. Lists are made based on the models you have, or can afford to buy.
If you want to netlist, go for it. But asking a bot to write lists for you is counterproductive.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/03/03 13:30:10
Skinnereal wrote: With stuff like 'AI' and bots, treat is like making a wish.
How could it possibly go wrong?
These things are computers at the core, so the old adage of "Garbage in, garbage out" will apply. Tell it EXACTLY what you want. If there is any ambiguity, it will creep in somehow.
Anyway, list making is a personal thing, and is part of the game. People enjoy making lists. Lists are made based on the models you have, or can afford to buy.
If you want to netlist, go for it. But asking a bot to write lisits for you is counterproductive.
A list is a personal thing except that at tournaments people are often looking for game breaking lists that put them over the top for the win. It seems to me that AI could do this. I have heard lots of stories of people using AIs like GPT for all sorts of clever things, from valentines cards to appealing parking tickets.
What passes for "AI" in the media these days are still literally just programs for guessing the next element in a sequence, any recent improvemets are pretty much just in speed of accessing vast amounts of references.
In that capacity they are perfectly competent in writing army lists in exactly the same method most players do - splicing together lists they've seen on the internet with no understanding of why any particular unit is included.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/03/03 14:34:55
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I’ve been asking the AI to make me receipts that meet a certain macro nurtient requirement using a list ingredients I like and excluding some I don’t, and it’s doing it really well. I don’t think it’s just finding recipes and copy and pasting them, it seems to be extracting data from some resource and compiling it to meet a criteria. So it may be able to create lists rather than copying them
I work in IT but embarrassingly I have not kept up to date with this stuff.
2700 pts LMAO, pretty funny. The points costs are a little funny, it must have found a lot of 8th edition lists from when Doomsday Arks were popular at 193 pts. The Scarab Swarm points confound me.
You 21:18 Please write me a 2000 point Arks of Omen Necrons list for Warhammer 40000 ChatGPT 21:18 ++ Battalion Detachment 0CP (Necrons) [111 PL, 9CP, 2,000pts] ++
Spoiler:
+ Configuration +
Battle Size [12CP]: 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points)
Detachment Command Cost
Dynasty Choice: Dynasty: Novokh
+ HQ +
Cryptek [5 PL, 95pts]: Chronometron, Staff of Light, Warlord
The Arks of Omen Necrons list focuses on a powerful melee-centric army that can rip through enemy lines with ease. The list includes three large units of Necron Warriors, backed up by powerful elite units such as the Lychguard and C'tan Shard of the Nightbringer. The inclusion of the Overlord with the Veil of Darkness adds an extra layer of mobility to the army, allowing you to teleport key units around the battlefield as needed.
The Triarch Stalker and Tomb Blades provide some long-range fire support, while the Canoptek Wraiths and Scarab Swarms are fast and deadly units that can quickly close the distance and engage in melee combat.
Overall, the Arks of Omen Necrons list is a formidable force that excels at melee combat and can quickly overwhelm opponents that aren't prepared for its relentless assault.
You 21:25 Why take particle casters on the Canoptek Wraiths? ChatGPT 21:25 As an AI language model, I do not have preferences or opinions. However, from a gameplay perspective in Warhammer 40,000, taking particle casters on Canoptek Wraiths can be beneficial. Particle casters provide the wraiths with a ranged weapon option, which can allow them to engage enemies from afar before charging into close combat. Additionally, particle casters are relatively inexpensive compared to other wargear options, making them a cost-effective choice for players looking to add some additional firepower to their Wraiths.
You 21:27 Give me ideas for Warhammer 40000 Necron lists. ChatGPT 21:27 1. Necron Warrior Horde: A horde of Necron Warriors supported by a Cryptek, a Triarch Stalker, and Scarabs would make for a solid list that can act as a defensive or offensive force.
2. Monolith Strike Force: A Monolith with its devastating Gauss Flux Arc and Quantum Shielding can be the centrepiece of a list that includes Immortals or Lychguards transported in Ghost Arks or Night Scythes.
3. Tomb Blades Outrider Detachment: A fast-moving Necron force that combines speed and firepower, Tomb Blades with Tesla Carbines and Particle Beamers supported by a Cryptek, and Canoptek Wraiths and Scarabs would make a highly mobile and versatile detachment.
4. Triarch Praetorian Shield Phalanx: A unit of Triarch Praetorians backed up by a Catacomb Command Barge, a Doomsday Ark, and Crypteks is an excellent option for engaging enemy units at close quarters.
5. Deathmarks Sniper Squad: Specializing in long-range precision shooting, Deathmarks are ideal for taking out enemy characters and heavy support units from afar. Support them with Crypteks and a Night Scythe to get into position quickly.
6. C'tan Shards Unbound: A highly unorthodox list that relies on the powerful abilities of C'tan Shards such as the Nightbringer and the Deceiver to wreak havoc on enemy forces. The C'tan Shards can be backed up by Warriors, Immortals, and Lychguards for extra firepower.
7. Destroyer Cult Detachment: This fast and deadly Necron list includes multiple units of Destroyers, Heavy Destroyers, and Tomb Blades, all aimed at causing maximum destruction to enemy units. Add in a Cryptek or two and maybe a Doomsday Ark to provide support.
8. Canoptek Harvest Formation: This list features numerous Canoptek units such as Spyders, Wraiths, and Scarabs all working together to overwhelm enemy forces through sheer numbers and relentless attacks. Add in a Cryptek or two for added effectiveness.
9. Obelisk and Sentry Pylon Battery: Fielding multiple Obelisks and Sentry Pylons, this Necron list uses massive firepower to wipe out enemy units from afar. Add in supporting units such as Warriors and Immortals to take objectives and engage in close combat.
10. Anrakyr the Traveller's Dynasty: Focus on using Anrakyr the Traveller and his Dynasty to improve the mobility and effectiveness of your other Necron units. Combine him with Lychguards, Immortals, and Triarch Stalkers to create a highly versatile army.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2023/03/03 20:33:14
I can understand it giving outdated point costs and wargear, etc, given that it's trained on data from a couple of years ago. But what's a bit more interesting is that sometimes it seems to just invent a number entirely.
For instance someone tried this with tyranids recently and one of the things it produced was a unit of 3 zoanthropes with a point cost of 115. That number isn't evenly divisible by 3, so it can't have ever been right. There was a 10 point per unit upgrade for a time in octarius rising tide, but zoanthropes weren't 35ppm at the time. Rather they shifted a couple of times between 45 and 50. So it still doesn't fit.
Goes to show that chat gpt is designed to produce written language, rather than accurate data. It's excellent at its job, but you start to see holes when you ask it for something like this.
Language models (mostly transformer models) are inherently bad at math. They are great to interpolate new text based on existing text.
It will take quite a lot of more work and research to build and train a language model that can understand what the user wants, optimize that want for a given benchmark, and return it too a user. The current language models are unable to do that.
Brickfix wrote: Language models (mostly transformer models) are inherently bad at math. They are great to interpolate new text based on existing text.
It will take quite a lot of more work and research to build and train a language model that can understand what the user wants, optimize that want for a given benchmark, and return it too a user. The current language models are unable to do that.
You can tell it when it does something wrong and it will try to return something better, like if you told it that Zoanthropes are 45 pts/model then it should figure it out. Of course, writing army lists is pretty far outside its wheel-house, so it might not work, I did correct it on one thing but I didn't test whether it actually updated itself and I know that sometimes when you correct it on something it can forget about a previous correction. Bing's chatbot on the other hand will just argue with you if you try to correct it, accepting nothing but the binary truth.
Skinnereal wrote: With stuff like 'AI' and bots, treat is like making a wish.
How could it possibly go wrong?
These things are computers at the core, so the old adage of "Garbage in, garbage out" will apply. Tell it EXACTLY what you want. If there is any ambiguity, it will creep in somehow.
Anyway, list making is a personal thing, and is part of the game. People enjoy making lists. Lists are made based on the models you have, or can afford to buy.
If you want to netlist, go for it. But asking a bot to write lisits for you is counterproductive.
A list is a personal thing except that at tournaments people are often looking for game breaking lists that put them over the top for the win. It seems to me that AI could do this. I have heard lots of stories of people using AIs like GPT for all sorts of clever things, from valentines cards to appealing parking tickets.
Except as shown in multiple lists they make illegal lists, lists with over the points, list with under the points(1400 pts when asking for 2000 pts list? WTF?) and even if somehow it's all legal the lists SUCK.
The AI is worse than 7 year kid at making army list. You can make better list for tournaments by reading through codex once.
The AI might not be good at making lists now but AIs are designed to learn, so there’s no reason they couldn’t get better looking at tournament results and applying superior processing power. I suppose I’m mostly impressed by how easy it is to ask the question. I’ll look at some other AIs that maybe more up to date. If I understood all this stuff better I might even try and train an AI to produce better lists
2023/03/07 16:10:36
Subject: Re:Chat GPT army lists, have you tried it
Right now ChatGPT only works on its training dataset, which has a cutoff at (I think) 2021. So no current rule changes are taken into account, because the system can not possibly know about them.
I also have my doubts if ChatGPT actually has access to any point costs, since those are not freely available - though I might be mistaken here. But who knows where the point costs come from which the AI does use. And again, they would not be the current points anyway (see above).
So I do not expect useful listbuilding advice from ChatGPT any time soon.
2023/03/07 19:33:49
Subject: Re:Chat GPT army lists, have you tried it
Darnok wrote: I think there are two things of note here:
Right now ChatGPT only works on its training dataset, which has a cutoff at (I think) 2021. So no current rule changes are taken into account, because the system can not possibly know about them.
I also have my doubts if ChatGPT actually has access to any point costs, since those are not freely available - though I might be mistaken here. But who knows where the point costs come from which the AI does use. And again, they would not be the current points anyway (see above).
So I do not expect useful listbuilding advice from ChatGPT any time soon.
GW hasn't really gone after people for posting pts lately, Dakka's enforcement of the rule has also lessened, although that might just be because people are so used to seeing it that they don't remember to report it when they see it.
Brickfix wrote: Language models (mostly transformer models) are inherently bad at math. They are great to interpolate new text based on existing text.
It will take quite a lot of more work and research to build and train a language model that can understand what the user wants, optimize that want for a given benchmark, and return it too a user. The current language models are unable to do that.
You can tell it when it does something wrong and it will try to return something better, like if you told it that Zoanthropes are 45 pts/model then it should figure it out. Of course, writing army lists is pretty far outside its wheel-house, so it might not work, I did correct it on one thing but I didn't test whether it actually updated itself and I know that sometimes when you correct it on something it can forget about a previous correction. Bing's chatbot on the other hand will just argue with you if you try to correct it, accepting nothing but the binary truth.
Sounds like some players I know.
2023/03/07 20:42:17
Subject: Re:Chat GPT army lists, have you tried it
GW hasn't really gone after people for posting pts lately, Dakka's enforcement of the rule has also lessened, although that might just be because people are so used to seeing it that they don't remember to report it when they see it.
I think that has largely been since GW started publishing their munitorum field manual PDFs on their website, with point costs for nearly everything. Enforcing a rule against posting point costs would seem a bit pointless when GW is making the information freely available.
Darnok wrote: I think there are two things of note here:
Right now ChatGPT only works on its training dataset, which has a cutoff at (I think) 2021. So no current rule changes are taken into account, because the system can not possibly know about them.
I also have my doubts if ChatGPT actually has access to any point costs, since those are not freely available - though I might be mistaken here. But who knows where the point costs come from which the AI does use. And again, they would not be the current points anyway (see above).
So I do not expect useful listbuilding advice from ChatGPT any time soon.
The Chat engine for Microsoft Bing, which I believe is Chat GPT based, knew details about the World Eaters Codex and was able to write army lists for me. With and without Angron.
Right now ChatGPT only works on its training dataset, which has a cutoff at (I think) 2021. So no current rule changes are taken into account, because the system can not possibly know about them.
I also have my doubts if ChatGPT actually has access to any point costs, since those are not freely available - though I might be mistaken here. But who knows where the point costs come from which the AI does use. And again, they would not be the current points anyway (see above).
So I do not expect useful listbuilding advice from ChatGPT any time soon.
No, that is just its 'thinking' engine that was trained. When you ask it about something, it looks it up, then computes answer. And what it can do is getting really worrying (people saying it's just 'guessing the next element in a sequence' are clueless, AI can make pretty decent art and music now and it's not something that can be guessed that easily). I saw a video from computer expert testing it by asking it to write new computer programs - and the scariest bit was that the one error AI made was actually due to wrong documentation of programming language, an error said expert made too, not because it did something wrong:
2023/03/14 21:54:37
Subject: Re:Chat GPT army lists, have you tried it
Irbis wrote: (people saying it's just 'guessing the next element in a sequence' are clueless, AI can make pretty decent art and music now and it's not something that can be guessed that easily). I saw a video from computer expert testing it by asking it to write new computer programs
Yes, how odd that the things chatbots are best at are the exact things that can easily be made by guessing the next element in a sequence, like coding and music.
Perfect first try tho
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6000 pts - 
4000 pts - Harlies: 1000 pts - 
1000 pts
4200 
1250 
500
