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What I find interesting about this box is that it has the new primaris azreal but all the other dark angels are old marines.

I wonder if this is to do with power levels because vashtorr comes with cultists and not CSM. But for a marketing perspective I don’t think we’ve seen old marines in a box set for ages.

What do you think? Is there a narrative reason for this or are they just clearing out some old kits

mrFickle wrote:
What I find interesting about this box is that it has the new primaris azreal but all the other dark angels are old marines.

I wonder if this is to do with power levels because vashtorr comes with cultists and not CSM. But for a marketing perspective I don’t think we’ve seen old marines in a box set for ages.

What do you think? Is there a narrative reason for this or are they just clearing out some old kits

well, theirs 10 intercessors, not tac marines. the only firstborn unit is the deathwing, who are a dark angels "iconic" unit that hasnt been replaced yet. so the balance of forces are still in favour of primaris.

or did you mean "Old" as in not new releases? in which case, theirs been a whole slew of simmilar box sets, for example, the grey knights vs thousand sons box only had the two new leader models, everything else was pre-existing.

mrFickle wrote:


What do you think? Is there a narrative reason for this or are they just clearing out some old kits

Both.

Narrative: Vashtorr having cultists instead of CSM makes more sense since he's kinda "doing his own thang" and not wanting to be beholden/indebted/reliant to Astartes. Since he's an outsider(of mainstream chaos), multitudes of mortal minons makes sense.

Business: GW will never skip selling you old models packed into "new" boxes for a "discount"

mrFickle wrote:
What I find interesting about this box is that it has the new primaris azreal but all the other dark angels are old marines.

I wonder if this is to do with power levels because vashtorr comes with cultists and not CSM. But for a marketing perspective I don’t think we’ve seen old marines in a box set for ages.

What do you think? Is there a narrative reason for this or are they just clearing out some old kits

Umm...Primaris intercessors aren't all that old.

Box with all new sculpts are the rarity. Nothing more unusual than that. New herox2, bunch of existing sprues, profit.

No need to overthink it.

Are they intercessors? Whoops I thought they were tactical marines

If they had new deathwing I would have been very interested. With old dearh wing meh I have a bunch amd will wait for seperat releases.

But that Vastorr model is soooooo good I can’t wait to get my hands on it. And another venom crawler!

Have enough Deathwing terminators, too many intercessors, my IW have 50+ cultists, converted oblits, and 2 venom crawlers. It’s a cool set, but I just can’t justify it when all I need are the 2 characters. Will wait for individual release.

Do we even have the rules for Vashtorr yet?

EviscerationPlague wrote:
Do we even have the rules for Vashtorr yet?

They're coming this week, the sunday preview said so.

So speaking these rules, it states that all units in the army of renown must have the traitor astartes keyword. But the box contains cultists. I haven’t read the new codex, do cultists have this keyword?

mrFickle wrote:
So speaking these rules, it states that all units in the army of renown must have the traitor astartes keyword. But the box contains cultists. I haven’t read the new codex, do cultists have this keyword?

The generic cultist mob and the accursed cultists do indeed have that, the God-specific cultist, BSF cultists and Legends renegade cultist do not.

The rules are pretty damn uninspired LMAO. For being a creature that even Belakor is wary of, Vashtorr ain't doing much on the table.

EviscerationPlague wrote:
The rules are pretty damn uninspired LMAO. For being a creature that even Belakor is wary of, Vashtorr ain't doing much on the table.

Maybe he's underpowered so that his post-Ascension form can be suitably impressive I'd not put it past GW to power him up in three months time

It’s disappointingly uninteresting considering he’s the main antagonist of a long series of releases and a big story line that probably will change the setting permanently

I like the AoR… but not Vashtorr himself.

Especially his garbage Warlord Trait.

Terrible Warlord trait, really bad shooting attack, incredibly short-ranged and limited command abilities, can't hide at all, and he degrades.

He's just... lame!

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Terrible Warlord trait, really bad shooting attack, incredibly short-ranged and limited command abilities, can't hide at all, and he degrades.

He's just... lame!

He should’ve been Primarch level. Like Magnus or Mortarion.

He’s a nascent god, come on!

He's incredibly terrible, lol.

It seems like there's almost got to be some rules missing or something

Heh. As the folks on GW's FB page are pointing out:

1. Vashtorr builds Soulgrinders.
2. Vashtorr cannot take Soulgrinders.
3. Vashtorr's box includes Oblits.
4. Oblits get worse in his army.

Wow...

Ever feel like the different teams working on 40k don’t talk to each other.
And one team gets regularly blindsided by other teams.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Terrible Warlord trait, really bad shooting attack, incredibly short-ranged and limited command abilities, can't hide at all, and he degrades.

He's just... lame!

He's wound characteristic is 14w. Everybody outside Finland forgot how to put terrain on table?

Interesting that they put it out as a free PDF, maybe they forgot to put it in the book, but it looks like it will need an update pretty quick.

This is an army of renown for narrative play so if it sucks that won’t be much fun. Maybe they forgot about would grinders as they are too big for boarding actions

tneva82 wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Terrible Warlord trait, really bad shooting attack, incredibly short-ranged and limited command abilities, can't hide at all, and he degrades.

He's just... lame!

He's wound characteristic is 14w. Everybody outside Finland forgot how to put terrain on table?

The point is he's actually less resilient than Discolords or Daemon Princes in practical terms. Yes, you can hide him out of LoS, but if the opponent can draw a bead on him he'll go down quite quickly. He also starts out less dangerous in combat than either of those two and only gets worse as he takes damage.

I wonder if the command abilities are another little preview of how 10th is going to work - multiple abilities instead of auras but you can only choose one.

I did some test rolling. A straight 1v1 between Vashtorr and new Azrael.

Both can win in a 1v1 but its never an easy victory for either. Both have even managed to oneshot the other in the test roles I did.

Azrael, a 170pt model, managed to oneshot a supposed demigod of chaos...

I love dark angels and Azrael. But I agree Azrael in a 1v1 should have been curbstomped by Vashtorr. He should have been a Lord of War Primarch level threat.

 SeanDavid1991 wrote:
I did some test rolling. A straight 1v1 between Vashtorr and new Azrael.

Both can win in a 1v1 but its never an easy victory for either. Both have even managed to oneshot the other in the test roles I did.

Azrael, a 170pt model, managed to oneshot a supposed demigod of chaos...

I love dark angels and Azrael. But I agree Azrael in a 1v1 should have been curbstomped by Vashtorr. He should have been a Lord of War Primarch level threat.

From his background, Vashtorr is supposed to be more of a schemer / grey eminence / power behind the throne dude for now, with aspirations at becoming something more powerful. 'Demigods' are a dime a dozen on the tabletop, and stuff like Avatars of Khaine or C'Tan Shards also dies in droves, as do the more fragile Greater Demons. If Vashtorr was a 700 point unstoppable murder machine, he would be unsuitable for that boarding action / Arks of Omen stuff that is supposed to be what people are playing now, and people would complain that he's a 'must-take', only available in a box with old model tax, and be clamoring for a nerf.

I mean, i understand the sentiment, but consider that they turned effin' Angron into a sub-400-point jobber that dies 3 times against a couple of tanks but returns thanks to stupid special rules... they clearly want these characters that only should appear in gigantic battles to be regular features in small engagments, and write gamey rules to allow and justify that. It's the old special character problem, amplified by the magnitude of the characters involved.

I think we were all expecting the lion to show up and kick vashtorr out the rock so expected his to be able to survive a fight with a primarch. Also if azreal can beat him 1 on 1 the Abbadon has nothing to fear from him and his scheme. If Abbadon got tricked by the “you got exactly what you wanted” cliche he’d just kick vashtorrs ass

I made a new datasheet for Vashtorr, because that existing one is blech.

mrFickle wrote:
I think we were all expecting the lion to show up and kick vashtorr out the rock so expected his to be able to survive a fight with a primarch. Also if azreal can beat him 1 on 1 the Abbadon has nothing to fear from him and his scheme. If Abbadon got tricked by the “you got exactly what you wanted” cliche he’d just kick vashtorrs ass

I'd like Abaddon to try, only to get handed a massive 'It's also a hammer' moment like Curze

 JNAProductions wrote:
I made a new datasheet for Vashtorr, because that existing one is blech.

100% prefer yours. The longer range on the abilities is a great chance. What's the point in halving the range on weapons if to do so you have to be within half their normal range anyway?

tneva82 wrote:
He's wound characteristic is 14w. Everybody outside Finland forgot how to put terrain on table?

Dude, seriously? You're actually going to defend his rules? And pretend that a lack of terrain is the real issue?