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How do!

This is a thread intended to present head-scratchers. Questions which may be genuinely unanswerable about background stuff. With the hope thread contributors will at least have a decent stab at answering, by drawing on canonical references. Doesn’t matter how obscure. Provided it’s not fan fiction, and can be cited to a publication or computer game type reference, it’s a valid source.

First, but by no means only such question?

Just how many warships does The Imperium have? This is anything from System Defence Monitors up to The Phalanx and The Rock.

Whilst I very much doubt we can break it down to specific classes, let alone Escort/Cruiser/Heavy Cruiser etc, perhaps we can get a reasonable estimate, even if that estimate is a Bare Minimum type affair.

Why? Because such conversation can be interesting, and maybe even switch us on to obscure sources we want to read.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
How do!

This is a thread intended to present head-scratchers. Questions which may be genuinely unanswerable about background stuff. With the hope thread contributors will at least have a decent stab at answering, by drawing on canonical references. Doesn’t matter how obscure. Provided it’s not fan fiction, and can be cited to a publication or computer game type reference, it’s a valid source.

First, but by no means only such question?

Just how many warships does The Imperium have? This is anything from System Defence Monitors up to The Phalanx and The Rock.

Whilst I very much doubt we can break it down to specific classes, let alone Escort/Cruiser/Heavy Cruiser etc, perhaps we can get a reasonable estimate, even if that estimate is a Bare Minimum type affair.

Why? Because such conversation can be interesting, and maybe even switch us on to obscure sources we want to read.

That's not that unanswerable - we know that the Imperium is composed of a finite numbers of sectors, and each sector is protected by a battlefleet. The rest is mathematics:

Lexicanum gives the ships per fleet as 50-75, citing the BFG rulebook: https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Battlefleet

It also gives a list of about 100 named sectors, also citing that a 'typical' sector is a cube of about 200 light years to each side: https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Sector

Approximation of the diameter of the galaxy as ~100.000 LY and a disk results in roundabout 200.000 sectors, and in turn between ten and fifteen million battleships for the sector fleets. Of course, you'd have to add all sorts of ships not part of sector forces: the ships of the canonical amount of Space Marine chapters do not really matter because they are too few, but mechanicus ships, rogue traders and planetary defense ships matter, so i'd say ten million is the absolute lower bound and fifty to a hundred million is a reasonable guess for warp-capable ships of at least limited military capability.

50 - 100 ships per world? (typically the Imperium is said to have a million-ish worlds) That's not unreasonable to me if a very high proportion of those are sub-escort class, I think.

That gets us some kind of minimum, but only includes Battlefleet Assets, not those in mothball or dedicated system defence?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sorry, didn’t read the full post.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
But do keep in mind Imperial Space isn’t a big blob. Imperial Systems can be relatively few and far between, due to the vagaries of Warp Travel and the impact of that during the Great Crusade.

Ok here’s my attempt, why don’t the imperium just virus bomb every xenos world they find. Those bombs destroy pretty much everything and you have to be in a sealed bunker to survive so with the element of surprise then it should be a solid victory every time

mrFickle wrote:
Ok here’s my attempt, why don’t the imperium just virus bomb every xenos world they find. Those bombs destroy pretty much everything and you have to be in a sealed bunker to survive so with the element of surprise then it should be a solid victory every time

Resources would be my guess. Virus Bombs are indiscriminate. Flora, Fauna and Fungi all go bye bye, and leave an unpleasant organic soup. Given The Imperium is expansionist, that doesn’t seem like the right answer to every situation, as yes you’re composting a foe, but you don’t gain a new world or it’s much desired resources, at least not for a few generations. And if you wanted an agriworld out of it (think Eldar Maiden World) virus bombs, whilst the virus itself is purposefully short lived, fundamentally alter the biosphere. Hence why we see orbital strike following virus bombs. Basically putting a match to a planet sized fart.

As one form of Exterminatus, not only do relatively few ships carry the necessary weapons, but even fewer individuals have the authority to deploy them. And even then, there will be an enquiry to confirm it was necessary, and not wasteful of His resources.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

mrFickle wrote:
Ok here’s my attempt, why don’t the imperium just virus bomb every xenos world they find. Those bombs destroy pretty much everything and you have to be in a sealed bunker to survive so with the element of surprise then it should be a solid victory every time

Resources would be my guess. Virus Bombs are indiscriminate. Flora, Fauna and Fungi all go bye bye, and leave an unpleasant organic soup. Given The Imperium is expansionist, that doesn’t seem like the right answer to every situation, as yes you’re composting a foe, but you don’t gain a new world or it’s much desired resources, at least not for a few generations. And if you wanted an agriworld out of it (think Eldar Maiden World) virus bombs, whilst the virus itself is purposefully short lived, fundamentally alter the biosphere. Hence why we see orbital strike following virus bombs. Basically putting a match to a planet sized fart.

As one form of Exterminatus, not only do relatively few ships carry the necessary weapons, but even fewer individuals have the authority to deploy them. And even then, there will be an enquiry to confirm it was necessary, and not wasteful of His resources.

There are also Xenos that virusbombing will not work on, or will not work well - Necron tomb worlds are already dead and the necrons themselves mostly impervious, against Tyranids it's not guaranteed to work and a worst you're giving them ideas, and i guess there are other species of less importance that are just so removed from general carbon-based biochemistry that the virus may not work, out of phase with reality, partly warp-based and so on.

You probably could successfully virus bomb Tyranids, because the life eater viruses are so rapid - and the “match to the fart” coup de grace would leave very few, if any, survivors at all.

Trouble is, you need to take out their Hive Ships as well.

Preservation of resources is the primary concern. Habitable planets are not common and while the Imperium can build orbital habitats, sealed cities, or any other number of structures, a natural expansion of settlements on a world is far easier.
A Tyranid tendril or Ork Waaagh invading a world with copious resources and large built-up industries isn't something the Imperium can actually afford to lose at will. The "match to flame" effect of using the Life Eater bombs still utterly devastates the planet and it's infrastructure, as seen on Isstvan 3 during the opening betrayal of the Heresy. The Loyalists weren't defending well-prepared defence networks and fighting through intact city streets, the entire Choral City was in ruins.

mrFickle wrote:
Ok here’s my attempt, why don’t the imperium just virus bomb every xenos world they find. Those bombs destroy pretty much everything and you have to be in a sealed bunker to survive so with the element of surprise then it should be a solid victory every time

Habitable planets are rare and valuable. Imperium simply finds the trade of a few armies for them a bargain. Then you have the fact that alien biospheres are really valuable too - multiple animals and plants Imperium widely uses are in fact alien organisms that were discovered to be better versions of Terran species (and then you have that grimdumb story of making better version of life extending rejuvenat drug out of intelligent alien species to the point it was hunted to extinction in a few years). Virus bombing is reserved for cases where the planet ceases to have any value anyway, say Tyranid invasion or heavy Chaos taint. Hell, even huge ork Waaaghs or Necron awakenings are being fought with regular armies, not orbital bombing, as Imperium hopes to reclaim the world in usable shape even from a threat of that big caliber.

Then there is morale issue too - Imperium is being paid for protection by its constituent parts. Promise of 'we will liberate your world eventually even if someone invades' kinda sounds better than 'we will obliterate it to the point of being lifeless rock of all eternity at the first sign of trouble, now pay more tithe, kthxbye'.

Exterminatus can also be done where the gains outweigh the cost. And that will naturally vary Planet to planet.

A systems sole Agri-World may be off limits for it, as it would lead to mass starvation and resulting strife elsewhere. Taint can be cleansed, and the planet repopulated fairly quickly.

But, say you’ve caught Ghaz with his pants down? To decapitate his Waaagh! might justify the cost.

But if it’s a sparsely populated, not that key planet? I’d imagine there’s a good bit more leeway. Not to be done willy-nilly of course. Just….less trouble justifying your action, which is always after the fact.

Tsagualsa wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
How do! This is his gf, on a quest to see if he proofread...hehehe

This is a thread intended to present head-scratchers. Questions which may be genuinely unanswerable about background stuff. With the hope thread contributors will at least have a decent stab at answering, by drawing on canonical references. Doesn’t matter how obscure. Provided it’s not fan fiction, and can be cited to a publication or computer game type reference, it’s a valid source.

First, but by no means only such question?

Just how many warships does The Imperium have? This is anything from System Defence Monitors up to The Phalanx and The Rock.

Whilst I very much doubt we can break it down to specific classes, let alone Escort/Cruiser/Heavy Cruiser etc, perhaps we can get a reasonable estimate, even if that estimate is a Bare Minimum type affair.

Why? Because such conversation can be interesting, and maybe even switch us on to obscure sources we want to read.

That's not that unanswerable - we know that the Imperium is composed of a finite numbers of sectors, and each sector is protected by a battlefleet. The rest is mathematics:

Lexicanum gives the ships per fleet as 50-75, citing the BFG rulebook: https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Battlefleet

It also gives a list of about 100 named sectors, also citing that a 'typical' sector is a cube of about 200 light years to each side: https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Sector

Approximation of the diameter of the galaxy as ~100.000 LY and a disk results in roundabout 200.000 sectors, and in turn between ten and fifteen million battleships for the sector fleets. Of course, you'd have to add all sorts of ships not part of sector forces: the ships of the canonical amount of Space Marine chapters do not really matter because they are too few, but mechanicus ships, rogue traders and planetary defense ships matter, so i'd say ten million is the absolute lower bound and fifty to a hundred million is a reasonable guess for warp-capable ships of at least limited military capability.

This seems a bit high. Most of the galaxy is wilderness space that does not contain Imperial sectors.

I think it is probably more likely that the Imperium has ~1 million Imperial Navy ships in sector battlefleets (roughly 1 ship per world), with some number of additional ships in reserve fleets (mostly mothballed vessels, but I suspect the Segmentum fleet bases will maintain a standing reserve) that maybe amounts to another half a million if we are being generous, but no way to know on this one. This is based on sector fleets having 50-75 ships on average. Details for the typical number of worlds per sector is sparse, but for three sectors we have good numbers on, it ranges from ~80 to double that number of important systems. The Gothic sector has 81 known important systems under Imperial control (some lost in the Gothic War), this is the same source as the 50-75 ships number, so is probably taken as a fairly typical sector. The Scarus sector has at least 79, but probably more seeing as only one world is known for one of the subsectors (Vraks). The Calixis sector has at least 163 known systems (actually a little higher, but that is how many are on the map), although around 20 of these are dead or forbidden worlds. All in all, it looks like Imperial sectors are likely to have ~70-80 inhabited systems, with some sectors being larger (like Calixis) and others smaller. This broadly gives a ratio of one warp-capable Navy vessel per world, if we are being generous, so about 1 million Navy vessels with 1 million Imperial worlds.

Then there are other Imperial forces with naval assets, that will be harder to quantify- some, like Inquisitorial or Arbites vessels, we have no number for, but likely low and overall insignificant. Rogue Traders are impossible to quantify but may represent a substantial number. Others, like the Mechanicus and Astartes have significant fleet elements that will be noticeable in the grand scheme of things.

A Space Marine Chapter has fleet assets ranging from the bare minimum to carry its forces (in the region of 10 strike cruisers, or a battle barge and 7 strike cruisers etc) up to fleets that apparently rival the strength of an entire sector battlefleet- the Ultramarines Chapter, for example, operates >40 warp-capable vessels including 8 battleship-grade craft. The Ultramarines are a First Founding Chapter, but are not fleet based, so they probably fall into the upper end of Chapter fleets but not the top end (I think Chapters like the Imperial Fists, Black Templars, and Dark Angels will have the largest fleets, the latter likely having far more vessels than they own up to having). Going in the middle and guessing a Chapter typically operates around 25 warp-capable vessels gives Astartes fleet assets of 25000 ships, or about 2.5% the strength of the Imperial Navy sector fleets.

All in all, I suspect it is highly unlikely that Imperial warp-capable combat vessels go above 3-4 million, although merchant vessel numbers will be much higher. System ships are also much more numerous and there will likely be millions of these across the Imperium.

What about this…. Why don’t they just abandon terra. One of the imperiums problems is that the golden throne is now keeping beasties from getting onto the throne world through a broken web way gate. and the emperor is needed to power the golden throne so they can’t let him die. So move the throne world and then wait until they all come through and explode the planet. Then chilax

And probably the emperor can put more energy into the astronominomicon.

Earth sounds like a crap hole anyway

Because it's the throne world, the ancestral cradle of mankind. It has more symbolic meaning than any other world in the galaxy.
I'm also pretty sure the Imperium can't just pick up the Emperor and move Him around willy-nilly. He moves, the seal is broken, and Terra is destroyed.

 Gert wrote:
Because it's the throne world, the ancestral cradle of mankind. It has more symbolic meaning than any other world in the galaxy.
I'm also pretty sure the Imperium can't just pick up the Emperor and move Him around willy-nilly. He moves, the seal is broken, and Terra is destroyed.

Yup, there's that with the Golden Throne being fixed in place and Terra is also the location of where the Astronomicon is based, which is needed to keep the Imperium together with regards to warp travel. I believe it's so deeply integrated into the planet itself and given how backwards technologically the Imperium is, they wouldn't be able to relocate it to a different location even if they wanted to.

Plus a massive warp explosion has potential to take out Mars, the single most productive forge world in the Imperium and a repository of its most advanced technological secrets. I doubt all that industrial gear can be moved.

Terra itself is also likely to contain significant industrial infrastructure that is difficult to move, being a world of a quadrillion souls.

If the blast was big enough, it may even threaten the shipyards of Jupiter, Saturn, and Neptune, some of the largest shipyards in the Imperium which also cannot be easily moved or replaced.

Blowing up Terra is quite the gamble.

 Haighus wrote:
Plus a massive warp explosion has potential to take out Mars, the single most productive forge world in the Imperium and a repository of its most advanced technological secrets. I doubt all that industrial gear can be moved.

Terra itself is also likely to contain significant industrial infrastructure that is difficult to move, being a world of a quadrillion souls.

If the blast was big enough, it may even threaten the shipyards of Jupiter, Saturn, and Neptune, some of the largest shipyards in the Imperium which also cannot be easily moved or replaced.

Blowing up Terra is quite the gamble.

Not just the warp issue. Shattering any planetoid is going to upset the orbit of other planets due to a change in local gravity fields and that.

You’d need to ask someone properly qualified or knowledgable on what that might and how bad things might get.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

 Haighus wrote:
Plus a massive warp explosion has potential to take out Mars, the single most productive forge world in the Imperium and a repository of its most advanced technological secrets. I doubt all that industrial gear can be moved.

Terra itself is also likely to contain significant industrial infrastructure that is difficult to move, being a world of a quadrillion souls.

If the blast was big enough, it may even threaten the shipyards of Jupiter, Saturn, and Neptune, some of the largest shipyards in the Imperium which also cannot be easily moved or replaced.

Blowing up Terra is quite the gamble.

Not just the warp issue. Shattering any planetoid is going to upset the orbit of other planets due to a change in local gravity fields and that.

You’d need to ask someone properly qualified or knowledgable on what that might and how bad things might get.

Not that much actually, if you just shatter it

The central mass would remain more or less in place and keep its relevant speed and momentum on Terra's orbit around the sun, and basically glom together even if you blew it to small chunks. Even if you vaporized all of it, the vapor would condense right back at the center of gravity due to all the molecules attracting themselves back together.

Things get a lot more interesting once you dump enough energy into it to actually accelerate stuff to second or third cosmic speed, i.e. fast-hot enough to leave earth's or the sun's gravity well, but at that point much of the nearer planets are toast anyway, cooked by your particle storm.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Haighus wrote:


A Space Marine Chapter has fleet assets ranging from the bare minimum to carry its forces (in the region of 10 strike cruisers, or a battle barge and 7 strike cruisers etc) up to fleets that apparently rival the strength of an entire sector battlefleet- the Ultramarines Chapter, for example, operates >40 warp-capable vessels including 8 battleship-grade craft. The Ultramarines are a First Founding Chapter, but are not fleet based, so they probably fall into the upper end of Chapter fleets but not the top end (I think Chapters like the Imperial Fists, Black Templars, and Dark Angels will have the largest fleets, the latter likely having far more vessels than they own up to having). Going in the middle and guessing a Chapter typically operates around 25 warp-capable vessels gives Astartes fleet assets of 25000 ships, or about 2.5% the strength of the Imperial Navy sector fleets.

To expand on that, the Thramas Crusade HH book gives the fleet size of the Night Lord legion as 200 capital ships and 600 escorts, and notes that it is by far the largest fleet among the ones involved. So around 25 ships per chapter on average seems to be a pretty good guess actually.

Tsagualsa wrote:
To expand on that, the Thramas Crusade HH book gives the fleet size of the Night Lord legion as 200 capital ships and 600 escorts, and notes that it is by far the largest fleet among the ones involved. So around 25 ships per chapter on average seems to be a pretty good guess actually.

Related to this, the Black Books provide some very interesting methodologies for determining which legion had the biggest fleet.

By straight count of ships, it was Ultramarines. By tonnage (number of ships times size of ships), it was Imperial Fists. By number of capital ships, it was the Death Guard/Sons of Horus/Blood Angels (unclear at the moment). So there's plenty of variables that can be played around with for a legion to maximize their PR and bragging rights.

 Grimskul wrote:

 Gert wrote:
Because it's the throne world, the ancestral cradle of mankind. It has more symbolic meaning than any other world in the galaxy.
I'm also pretty sure the Imperium can't just pick up the Emperor and move Him around willy-nilly. He moves, the seal is broken, and Terra is destroyed.

Yup, there's that with the Golden Throne being fixed in place and Terra is also the location of where the Astronomicon is based, which is needed to keep the Imperium together with regards to warp travel. I believe it's so deeply integrated into the planet itself and given how backwards technologically the Imperium is, they wouldn't be able to relocate it to a different location even if they wanted to.

plus remember the planet itself is regarded as Holy, because of its role as the origin world of the emperor and mankind. allowing it to be destroyed would be like trying to get victory against the Islamic caliphates in the medieval crusades by intentionally leveling Jerusalem and the entire Levant till not even rubble is left. all you'd get is your own allies turning on you as a heretic.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Exterminatus can also be done where the gains outweigh the cost. And that will naturally vary Planet to planet.

A systems sole Agri-World may be off limits for it, as it would lead to mass starvation and resulting strife elsewhere. Taint can be cleansed, and the planet repopulated fairly quickly.

But, say you’ve caught Ghaz with his pants down? To decapitate his Waaagh! might justify the cost.

But if it’s a sparsely populated, not that key planet? I’d imagine there’s a good bit more leeway. Not to be done willy-nilly of course. Just….less trouble justifying your action, which is always after the fact.

Think as well there are relatively few people that can order a virus bomb strike - certain members of the Inquisition? I doubt it is something that would be allowed any more widely, there would just be too much chance of an Imperial Commander or Marine chapter master going rogue.

Chapter Masters can - but it’s not clear if they can delegate that authority, or even if all Chapters have the necessary weapons for an Exterminatus.

Though worth noting Exterminatus isn’t just virus bombs and cyclonic torpedoes. It can include a good old fashioned sustained bombardment until the planet comes apart at the seams.

Imperial Navy fleet commanders (not necessarily Admirals), Inquisitors with enough clout, and Astartes Captains can all order Exterminatus operations.
Even then it's still a case of utter loss for the planet in question. When Ventris orders it done to Pavonis during a conflict with the T'au it is to prove to the Ethereal just how uncompromising the Imperium is. The T'au had won the military victory and essentially taken the planet but Ventris intended to win the campaign by destroying the objective in question.

 Gert wrote:
Imperial Navy fleet commanders (not necessarily Admirals), Inquisitors with enough clout, and Astartes Captains can all order Exterminatus operations.
Even then it's still a case of utter loss for the planet in question. When Ventris orders it done to Pavonis during a conflict with the T'au it is to prove to the Ethereal just how uncompromising the Imperium is. The T'au had won the military victory and essentially taken the planet but Ventris intended to win the campaign by destroying the objective in question.

It's been a while since I read it - but wasn't the destruction of Pavonis due to an awakening tomb world?

No, but it was the second time Pavonis had an Ultramarine intervention.