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I love 40k, I love the feeling that comes with pouring hours and hours into an army an be able to see a finished result. Thats why I am concerned about this.

The lack of Diversity in this Hobby.

Whenever I go to play a game with others -at a local hobby store etc.- it seems like the only demographic I see are white men in there 30s-50s. There is nothing wrong with this; however, I am wondering why there is a lack of diversity in the hobby. It seems like there are very little people of Color, or the LGBTQ+ community. Much less women.

It sucks because this hobby feels like it should be applicable to all people regardless of race, religion, etc. I wonder why there is such a lack of diversity and what can we do as the community to encourage more people -of all walks of life- to join?

As a youngster with a diverse group of friends, I find that most young people would rather not play in stores.
My trans girlfriend is very socially anxious, and would rather be at home, but I'm not sure how common that is.
My Hispanic friend doesn't see much appeal, but that's because he's more computer oriented, so he prefers playing online.
It's a lot harder to tell if someone is LGBT at a game club, since most wouldn't know I'm gay. I don't really make a habit of telling the store owner.
That leaves my other friend, a white guy, who is willing to go out and play, since we don't have a big enough table at my house.
Does it help that the store owner is also Hispanic?
The only time I've seen women in the game store was when they were with other people, and I don't know if it's them not being interested in the hobby, them thinking game stores are full of weirdos because of mostly made up online stories, or if the place is made up of weirdos, and I just don't see it.
Maybe they show up for D&D nights, but since I don't, that's probably where they are. RPGs are much more appealing for people not willing to invest into Wargames, but still like tabletop. Women do tend to fall into this camp, whether societal reasons or not. If you want to get women into wargaming, your best bet is probably to invite some to play.

It might be that you are in Colorado. I'm in Iowa, and even over 20 years ago we had gay men and a Black guy in the group. I can understand being older, this hobby is crazy expensive.

 TheBestBucketHead wrote:
As a youngster with a diverse group of friends, I find that most young people would rather not play in stores.
My trans girlfriend is very socially anxious, and would rather be at home, but I'm not sure how common that is.
My Hispanic friend doesn't see much appeal, but that's because he's more computer oriented, so he prefers playing online.
It's a lot harder to tell if someone is LGBT at a game club, since most wouldn't know I'm gay. I don't really make a habit of telling the store owner.
That leaves my other friend, a white guy, who is willing to go out and play, since we don't have a big enough table at my house.
Does it help that the store owner is also Hispanic?
The only time I've seen women in the game store was when they were with other people, and I don't know if it's them not being interested in the hobby, them thinking game stores are full of weirdos because of mostly made up online stories, or if the place is made up of weirdos, and I just don't see it.
Maybe they show up for D&D nights, but since I don't, that's probably where they are. RPGs are much more appealing for people not willing to invest into Wargames, but still like tabletop. Women do tend to fall into this camp, whether societal reasons or not. If you want to get women into wargaming, your best bet is probably to invite some to play.

Thank you so much for your response, it was very well written and your experience was really interesting to hear. I do agree with the fact that it seems like many women do prefer games such as DandD and such like that, Im assuming that part of the reason is the super hyper masculine nature of wargaming in general. Furthermore, the stereotype is that everyone in the hobby is a racist Nazi. As someone who is part of the LGBTQ+ community myself, I personally feel pretty good about playing the hobby -albeit you would not be able to tell im pan- it feels relatively safe for the most part. Ofc, there have been some interesting characters but overall seems open.

I do wish that more people of color and women will play tho. Part of the hobby is socializing with others, and I would love to hear from people who lead different lives and have different experiences for me.

And lets go, a fellow younger person in the hobby.

This is a pretty well worn topic, and there seem to be a wide variety of factors. it also does appear to vary dramatically from store to store and city to city, as I've seen small shops in the rural deep south with a very diverse 40k scene, and big stores in northern or eastern cities that are basically all white dudes.

1) cost. the hobby is simply expensive. That shuts the door on younger people, and people from working class and even a lot of middle class backgrounds.

2) logistics. The hobby requires space, including storage, pain space, spray areas, and obviously places to play

3) Setting. 40k is almost self parodically grim and dark, while focusing on the most violent aspects of the same.

4) inertia. table top hobby games has always been the domain of dorky white guys, and they mostly know other dorky white guys.

5) the community. I think that most gamers are open and enthusiastic about newcomers... but I've certainly seen and heard some racist and sexist stuff from 40k players while at the store.

Finally, I do think that conflating the people you say hanging around the shop with the broader hobby is a mistake we all make. Looking at the 40k youtube scene, i think you see a bit more diversity than in many shops. In general, there are a lot of pockets of gamers who don't game in the stores.

Well. It could just be the appeal.

Warhammer and GW intend to be Inclusive. All that means is ensuring representation in the art, models and background.

Whether or not non dis-het white males then come along and get involved, is well beyond anyone’s control.

It’s like going to a Heavy Metal gig or festival. Predominantly white folk. By no means 100%, but a comfortable majority.

Yes some bands are openly racist (Skrewdriver). But everyone else is just making their music and don’t particularly care who does or doesn’t like their music.

The other issue of course would be self-appointed Gate Keepers. But that is a subject of much ridicule from me, and not for Dakka.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Well. It could just be the appeal.

Warhammer and GW intend to be Inclusive. All that means is ensuring representation in the art, models and background.

Whether or not non dis-het white males then come along and get involved, is well beyond anyone’s control.

It’s like going to a Heavy Metal gig or festival. Predominantly white folk. By no means 100%, but a comfortable majority.

Yes some bands are openly racist (Skrewdriver). But everyone else is just making their music and don’t particularly care who does or doesn’t like their music.

The other issue of course would be self-appointed Gate Keepers. But that is a subject of much ridicule from me, and not for Dakka.

Lets go. A fellow metal-head. For me personally I see a pretty wide diversity of people at metal concerts, but that just may be my location.

I do agree that GW tries there best and honestly it probably just comes down to the stereotype that everyone is a old white guy that pushes away minorities and diversity.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Polonius wrote:
This is a pretty well worn topic, and there seem to be a wide variety of factors. it also does appear to vary dramatically from store to store and city to city, as I've seen small shops in the rural deep south with a very diverse 40k scene, and big stores in northern or eastern cities that are basically all white dudes.

1) cost. the hobby is simply expensive. That shuts the door on younger people, and people from working class and even a lot of middle class backgrounds.

2) logistics. The hobby requires space, including storage, pain space, spray areas, and obviously places to play

3) Setting. 40k is almost self parodically grim and dark, while focusing on the most violent aspects of the same.

4) inertia. table top hobby games has always been the domain of dorky white guys, and they mostly know other dorky white guys.

5) the community. I think that most gamers are open and enthusiastic about newcomers... but I've certainly seen and heard some racist and sexist stuff from 40k players while at the store.

Finally, I do think that conflating the people you say hanging around the shop with the broader hobby is a mistake we all make. Looking at the 40k youtube scene, i think you see a bit more diversity than in many shops. In general, there are a lot of pockets of gamers who don't game in the stores.

Grimdark is the main turnoff for 40k. Hence why I play Tau. I do feel like having that incredibly dark hyper violent world will definitely push away many of people who think the models look cool and want to paint them, yet dont want to have to deal with this incredibly hyperviolent world.

Sometimes there are unintentional barriers. Any social group that has a dominance of certain types of person can be intimidating to those who are not of that group

This could be anything - genders, colours, religions, backgrounds, ages.

This doesn't mean the group is unfriendly to those not of their kind, just that it is intimidating on a level that is hard to overcome because in a sense you need people to make the step and join to break the appearance of the group being of one type to encourage others in as well.


The trick is to think less of barriers and more of lures. An easy lure is having people of the under-represented groups in key promotional positions so that them being personable; encouraging and showing the fun they have is more likely to draw others of a similar nature into the hobby.

We've seen this happening more and more with women joining various hobby and interest groups that they were not originally well represented in in the past.



Sometimes the "lure" is hard to define and you can be doing everything right and still not get people of certain backgrounds past the door. This can be complicated. Perhaps certain groups come from backgrounds where finances do not allow them the free disposable income to spend on this hobby; perhaps they come from backgrounds where hobbies are less encouraged over other pursuits - especially when they are younger and more influenced by their parents - which is also a key age demographic that draws people into hobbies.


Hobbies also go in waves; sometimes a hobby is all the rage for a generation or two then it goes through a lull and picks up again later if the company is aware enough to market toward new generations. I'd argue GW is pretty good at this in general; but even then there are lulls. Heck when I grew up hardly anyone in my circles was playing - all the gamers were a few years older. And I was right in the target demographic for GW style games.

IMHO the biggest barrier is lack of disposable income. The hobby is expensive and older white cisgender men tend to have more disposable income.

I don't believe it is something inherent of the hobby as I know female and LGBT players, even if they admittedly are a minority.

There's a chunk of people in this hobby who are gatekeepery and bigoted. I would like to think they're a tiny minority, but sometimes they can be pretty loud.

At my local GW, with one exception of a guy who hasn't been there (to my knowledge) in quite a while, everyone is nice, accepting, tolerant... But it's still mostly white guys. Overread put it well, I think.

Another consideration is looking at other things that are attracting those groups.

Eg girls are often still heavily marketed and pushed toward things like dolls, princesses and other such "girly" things. Yes there are changes there; but if one of your "missing" demographic groups is simply missing because other brands and other social elements are marketing more heavily toward them and simply capturing them before your marketing can reach them. Then that is a darn hard situation to change.

Because in a sense you are doing nothing wrong; you are just being out-competed by brands and social elements way outside of your market and influence.


Sometimes you can be crafty - GW has in the UK long connected itself with things like Duke of Edinburgh Award schemes and schools and interests parents through the skills that the hobby brings.

Or how GW isn't too fussy about licencing out for video games; knowing that good games will get people into the setting and that means more chance that they might buy GW models; or books or other merchandise.

Or how GW is slowly getting into video. Again its all about trying ot draw in other crowds from outside of their typical miniature wargaming marketing systems.

 Overread wrote:
Sometimes there are unintentional barriers. Any social group that has a dominance of certain types of person can be intimidating to those who are not of that group

This could be anything - genders, colours, religions, backgrounds, ages.

This doesn't mean the group is unfriendly to those not of their kind, just that it is intimidating on a level that is hard to overcome because in a sense you need people to make the step and join to break the appearance of the group being of one type to encourage others in as well.


The trick is to think less of barriers and more of lures. An easy lure is having people of the under-represented groups in key promotional positions so that them being personable; encouraging and showing the fun they have is more likely to draw others of a similar nature into the hobby.

We've seen this happening more and more with women joining various hobby and interest groups that they were not originally well represented in in the past.



Sometimes the "lure" is hard to define and you can be doing everything right and still not get people of certain backgrounds past the door. This can be complicated. Perhaps certain groups come from backgrounds where finances do not allow them the free disposable income to spend on this hobby; perhaps they come from backgrounds where hobbies are less encouraged over other pursuits - especially when they are younger and more influenced by their parents - which is also a key age demographic that draws people into hobbies.


Hobbies also go in waves; sometimes a hobby is all the rage for a generation or two then it goes through a lull and picks up again later if the company is aware enough to market toward new generations. I'd argue GW is pretty good at this in general; but even then there are lulls. Heck when I grew up hardly anyone in my circles was playing - all the gamers were a few years older. And I was right in the target demographic for GW style games.

Thank you for this well written and thought out response. I agree with the idea that introducing people whom are a minority into a spotlight in this hobby could bring a great deal of new people into the hobby. For example, in the winter percussion group I am in at my school we have a Hispanic snare drummer who normally hangs around a group of primarily Hispanic people. After he joined, there has been a spike in the amount of Hispanic people joining the music program.

Why don't you ask women, lgbt, and peeps o color?

You could always try and force these people to hobby.

It’s also worth keeping in mind the gaming side is only one aspect of the whole of the hobby.

FLGS and Warhammer Stores can of course offer painting space, but the environment itself isn’t for everyone. Certainly I know when I’m being artsy fartsy I prefer to be at home, Telly on with a near endless supply of tea.

Online you see a decent and rising number of female painters, who are also kitbashing and doing the modelling side of the hobby.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
It’s also worth keeping in mind the gaming side is only one aspect of the whole of the hobby.

FLGS and Warhammer Stores can of course offer painting space, but the environment itself isn’t for everyone. Certainly I know when I’m being artsy fartsy I prefer to be at home, Telly on with a near endless supply of tea.

Online you see a decent and rising number of female painters, who are also kitbashing and doing the modelling side of the hobby.

Haha to be fair I am also on the painting side of the hobby -as you can see from my other posts- and yeah its cool to see more females doing painting tutorials. I also love how British "Telly on with a near endless supply of tea" is.

You could probably squeeze me into fit the demographic cited in the OP, but hobby stores do not interest me in the slightest.

Now I wouldn't say these guys are rich, but I'd be willing to bet at their age they're invested and perhaps have even diverted a mid-life crisis which is a positive thing for them.

I do miss those old school games shops though were I used to browse for hours.

But these days if I'm being social it's hanging with close friends and having a beer.

That said I'd like to see Warhammer become more of a household name like D&D. I know far more people I could call up to get a game going than I could with Warhammer.

My local gaming stores are pretty diverse, but that's fitting for southern California. Gotta keep in mind the demographics of your area. Playing at home is more comfortable for me, though it's not ideal for making new friends.

Why does this matter at all?

Hell, I've played 40K, WHFB, T:WH, and some other video game adaptations I don't recall perfectly. I think the setting is great. I think the figurines are great. It's obviously not top-tier writing, but it's fun.

I wouldn't encourage anyone to play the tabletop versions ever. The cost sink is fething obscene. The tabletop games are honestly grifts.

If it’s just “Diverse folk in my area aren’t interested in 40k” then it’s not an issue.
If it’s “Diverse folk are interested, but there’s barriers stopping them from joining” then that’s an issue.

My area in California is pretty much like all cis white dudes in terms of 40k stuff. As a trans lady I have been getting some of my trans nerdy friends into it. Definitely way more effective on people who already like stuff like Aliens or dune or hyper violence though.

Anecdotal evidence is just that. The FLGS i have been attending for close to 20 years now has had more players come through the area than i can count thanks to 2 nearby military bases. currently the group of hardcore regulars include people who are old, young, male, female, asian, black, native tribes, jewish, gay, religious, atheists, pagans etc...

And nobody has ever given a GAK because we are there because we are gamers. we are a group of individuals who have a singular niche hobby we all enjoy participating in. we have all become good friends over the years because we have a good inviting community. in all my years gaming this has always been the case.

It sucks because this hobby feels like it should be applicable to all people regardless of race, religion, etc. I wonder why there is such a lack of diversity and what can we do as the community to encourage more people -of all walks of life- to join?

The fact you are looking for this is the problem. gaming has ALWAYS been applicable to all people. gamers are going to game, build a good community and who shows up should not matter based on personal characteristics. different hobbies attract different types of people. generally speaking, which we must do because many of our anecdotal experiences are outliers, only a small number of people in the local population are going to be into our hobby say compared to a local/national sports team etc... and of that it takes a certain mindset or interest to be into war gaming.

Because we have to approach this looking at the general population you are not going to find many women into the hobby for example, because as a general rule it is a hobby that does not interest them. my wife has done some war gaming in the past but she enjoys role playing and online MMORPGS more because she enjoys the story telling and character development sides of those types of games better than combat tactics.

 aphyon wrote:
Anecdotal evidence is just that. The FLGS i have been attending for close to 20 years now has had more players come through the area than i can count thanks to 2 nearby military bases. currently the group of hardcore regulars include people who are old, young, male, female, asian, black, native tribes, jewish, gay, religious, atheists, pagans etc...

And nobody has ever given a GAK because we are there because we are gamers. we are a group of individuals who have a singular niche hobby we all enjoy participating in. we have all become good friends over the years because we have a good inviting community. in all my years gaming this has always been the case.

It sucks because this hobby feels like it should be applicable to all people regardless of race, religion, etc. I wonder why there is such a lack of diversity and what can we do as the community to encourage more people -of all walks of life- to join?

The fact you are looking for this is the problem. gaming has ALWAYS been applicable to all people. gamers are going to game, build a good community and who shows up should not matter based on personal characteristics. different hobbies attract different types of people. generally speaking, which we must do because many of our anecdotal experiences are outliers, only a small number of people in the local population are going to be into our hobby say compared to a local/national sports team etc... and of that it takes a certain mindset or interest to be into war gaming.

Because we have to approach this looking at the general population you are not going to find many women into the hobby for example, because as a general rule it is a hobby that does not interest them. my wife has done some war gaming in the past but she enjoys role playing and online MMORPGS more because she enjoys the story telling and character development sides of those types of games better than combat tactics.

Speaking of military bases, I'm moving to Washington because my girlfriend is part of the military, and we'll be getting married soon. I'm excited to check out the local gaming scene.

There is quite a bit of false flagging going on. Gatekeeping is about keeping woke out of the hobby. Not excluding minorities.

trexmeyer wrote:Why does this matter at all?

Hell, I've played 40K, WHFB, T:WH, and some other video game adaptations I don't recall perfectly. I think the setting is great. I think the figurines are great. It's obviously not top-tier writing, but it's fun.

I mean you basically said it yourself.

It's Fun

People naturally want to share fun with others; to draw them in, especially when the fun relies upon others. The more people we draw into our hobby the better. More people means more customers, which means more money for the creators who make stuff we like; it means more people for us to chat and interact with; it means more games being played at more varied skill and style levels.

Growth is a good thing, even better if that growth comes from fresh people new to the whole hobby rather than simply leaching new Warhammer fans from the Privateer Press club.

JNAProductions wrote:If it’s just “Diverse folk in my area aren’t interested in 40k” then it’s not an issue.
If it’s “Diverse folk are interested, but there’s barriers stopping them from joining” then that’s an issue.

It's also an issue if "diverse folk in my area aren't being marketed too/reached out too".
Again we come to the barrier and the carrot situation. It's not enough to just have no barriers to entry, you also have to have a reason to draw people in. You also have to understand why people are not being drawn in - perhaps the marketing is wrong; perhaps you're just not reaching out ot them the right way; perhaps cultural or social elements mean that your marketing has to change and adapt or perhaps you've got to wait for social elements to make more major changes (if they will) etc....

Understanding the reasons for things can be important and can help toward then changing a situation for the better.

aphyon wrote:Anecdotal evidence is just that. The FLGS i have been attending for close to 20 years now has had more players come through the area than i can count thanks to 2 nearby military bases. currently the group of hardcore regulars include people who are old, young, male, female, asian, black, native tribes, jewish, gay, religious, atheists, pagans etc...

Very true and already we've had a few mention that the local scene where they are is different.
However you also can't deny that at major events (eg regional and national) we also see a similar patterning of stereotypes present. So we can conclude that there's a likely chance that your situation is perhaps a touch more in the minority than the general scene.

This is neither bad nor good it simply is and understanding why it is can be a big step in improving diversity in other areas.


In the end improving diversity is all about taking down barriers and making something more welcoming at the same time to a broader spectrum of people.
It's also about understanding subtle barriers that you can't really "take down" such as those I identified in my earlier post. You don't "take down" the fact that the club is all 50 year olds; but perhaps you run some organised events with youth groups every so often where you've a few old-guard to run demo games and such; whilst having a lot of younger people all gathered and encouraged to come on the same day. With a view that you'll encourage a group to join up and become regulars all at once (or at least around the same time)

Overread, the broader audience myth.. and especially marketing target groups and experience show a bigger picture that some groups don't want certain hobbies / are not even interested when companies pander to them as f.e. visible in the comic book industry.

What is required is accessability and that has to do with GW providing: Quality affordable product.
The groups themselves are local and will inevitably vary highly in culture and acceptance of outsiders, all gw there can do sensibly is supporting events like you described, but it would do well to not attempt to dictate culture from top down.

Not Online!!! wrote:
Overread, the broader audience myth.. and especially marketing target groups and experience show a bigger picture that some groups don't want certain hobbies / are not even interested when companies pander to them as f.e. visible in the comic book industry.

What is required is accessability and that has to do with GW providing: Quality affordable product.
The groups themselves are local and will inevitably vary highly in culture and acceptance of outsiders, all gw there can do sensibly is supporting events like you described, but it would do well to not attempt to dictate culture from top down.

I think we are in agreement in that the view is GW provide a quality product to the market.


My points about marketing aren't about GW changing what they do in terms of the product, but more about what marketing and outreach strategies they can use within what they already create. So I'm not suggesting that they change what they make to market to different groups; but change how they reach out to those groups. With the understanding (as best as possible) as to why those groups might not be currently interested in wargaming or painting or hobbying.


I agree many firms have done this by changing their product to try and appeal to different markets and many times it can come off as insulting, stupid or just totally off-base. It can also not only not attract the new market but also turn those once loyal fans away as well.
My view was more how a person is introduced to wargaming and hobbying without changing what it is.


Where change comes it should be slight. EG GW using coloured plastics and push-fit to create products that can be sold in places like bookstores as regular complete game packs all-in-one. Things that still interest current gamers who lose nothing to very little*; but which might reach out to a new generation or at least get them started


*you can argue pushfit can reduce modularity of kits, but the right push fit design can still have varied parts. Though I agree this is a loss, however dynamic design I think has had far more impact on this.

This is why gatekeeping is so important.

Doesn’t work though, does it?

Like. At all. All gatekeepers manage is to look like petulant children who never learned to share.

That’s it, that’s the sum of gatekeeping efforts.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Doesn’t work though, does it?

Like. At all. All gatekeepers manage is to look like petulant children who never learned to share.

That’s it, that’s the sum of gatekeeping efforts.

How do you even gatekeep a hobby that has no real central venue where it takes place? Everybody can buy the products, everybody can form up a club or meet at someones home, and nowadays making your own Social Media presence, Youtube channel or stream takes almost no effort. There isn't really any gate to keep, outside of making any given community so toxic that newcomers are repelled.

Exactly. It’s a daft pursuit.