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Made in us
Thunderhawk Pilot Dropping From Orbit




AZ

I know they found his hand but never a body. In old lore they recovered his body but as everyone reminds me, old lore is no longer cannon. So what do y’all think? And why??



 
   
Made in us
The Marine Standing Behind Marneus Calgar





Upstate, New York

He’s comic book dead. And will remain so until they decide they want to sell a model for him in 40k.

His life/death is not a fixed point in the universe. Retconning Sang or Ferrus would have major implications. But Dorn is just this side of “missing, presumed dead” and could flip either way with a little good writing.

or bad writing and a cool model, which is more likely from GW.

   
Made in us
Terrifying Doombull




Yeah, technically comic book dead.

But... the thing with Dorn is he's the other* stoic, loyal administrator. So he's running the same themes and narrative purpose. And the Lion is now here, so the role of a foil to Roboute's approach is already filled, carrying on from their disagreements over the Second Empire stuff.

Narratively, at this point, you'd want to introduce someone who diverges pretty wildly from the archtypes already presented (ie, wild guy Russ or the Khan), or Corax for secret stuff and a twist.

So Dorn could happen, but he's way down the list, unless you want loyalist primarchs as a choice between colors of emotionally repressed administrators.


*Well, technically he was named first and was part of the original versions of the Heresy story, but Roboute got more air time later.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/05/03 17:10:51


Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut






I don't know what the life expectancy can be for even a primarch, when aboard an enemy ship, with NO HANDS...
   
Made in gb
Preparing the Invasion of Terra






It's just the one hand actually. Dorn's... Imperial Fist...
   
Made in gb
Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon






Well, in terms of “Just How Dead Can A Primarch Get?”

He’s so far got off light. Possibly.

Whilst there are no accounts of a Primarch doing a Wolverine and regenerating from a single, lone cell? We don’t know how Dorn became detached from his hand.

Best case? He got his hand lopped off and the rest of him is off somewhere else doing something else.

Worst case? Hideous awful disintegration and that hand, or the bones of, are all that left.

So narratively, there’s just as much room for “it is but a scratch” and “no he’s about as dead and mangled and dead as being dead and mangled and Extra Dead”.

   
Made in de
Servoarm Flailing Magos




Germany

He's just pining for the fjords forts.
   
Made in gb
Preparing the Invasion of Terra






 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Whilst there are no accounts of a Primarch doing a Wolverine and regenerating from a single, lone cell? We don’t know how Dorn became detached from his hand.

*cough*Vulkan*cough*
   
Made in gb
Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon






That’s a fair cop!

   
Made in gb
Preparing the Invasion of Terra






To be fair, I am being a bit cheeky with that. Vulkan is an exception, an exceptionally exceptional one.
Not just anyone can be psychically stripped down to their base atoms and regenerate.
But you are right Doc. In terms of Deadness, Dorn isn't likely to be that bad compared to y'know, Ferrus or Sanguinius. However, Curze did see his future, as told in Prince of Crows:
Spoiler:
The first demigod, clad in rough gold, inclined his white-hair head in majestic acknowledgement - a king greeting an equal.
‘I am Rogal Dorn,’ he said.
The Night Haunter said nothing. In his mind’s eye, he saw the giant die, dragged down by a hundred murders in a dark tunnel, their knives and swords wet with warrior’s blood.
The second giant wore armor of patterned grey, etched with ten thousand works, as if a scholar had taken a quill to a stone. He nodded his shaven tattooed head, likewise inked with scripture – the lettering gold upon the tanned skin.
‘I am Lorgar Aurelian.’ he said, his voice a hymn where Dorn’s had been a measured, stately demand. ‘We have been seeking you, brother.’ There was sorrow in his otherwise kind eyes - sorrow at the dark city, its unhealthy people, the obviousness of their colorless, exhausting lives.
Again, the Night Haunter said nothing. He saw this warrior crowned in psychic fire, screaming up at a burning sky.
The third giant wore armor of riveted, dense black. His arms were solid silver, yet contoured and moving as living limbs. His voice was the steely grind of a foundry’s bowels.
“I am Ferrus Manus’. He said. His eyes were dark, but not cold. The Night Haunter remained silent, seeing the warrior’s head clutched by it’s empty eye sockets in another man’s armored fingers.
The last giant wore armor painted the violet of an alien sunset. His hair was silvery, long and elegant. He alone smiled, and he alone met the Night Haunter’s eyes with warmth in his own.
“I am Fulgrim,’ said this last lord. “It is good to finally meet you, my brother.’
The Night Haunter still said nothing. He saw this final giant in only the faintest of images; always slithering and laughing, never entirely visible.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/05/03 19:36:14


 
   
Made in gb
Legendary Dogfighter





England

current lore has him missing presumed dead. When the rescue team boarded the chaos cruiser all they found was his hand and fragments of his armour. What happened to him, or those he was fighting is a mystery.

He could have been dragged into the warp by the chaos forces.

A certain Necron collector could have intervened and put him in status.

He could have been vaporised.

If he did return I'd hope they would write him as hating what the imperium has become and there being real friction between him and gulliman. We know they disagreed after the heresy on how things should be run.

But I feel Russ, Corax, Vulcan and the Khan are just a bit more interesting story wise for a return.


it's the quiet ones you have to look out for. Their the ones that change the world, the loud ones just take the credit for it. 
   
Made in de
Servoarm Flailing Magos




Germany

 Tamereth wrote:
current lore has him missing presumed dead. When the rescue team boarded the chaos cruiser all they found was his hand and fragments of his armour. What happened to him, or those he was fighting is a mystery.

He could have been dragged into the warp by the chaos forces.

A certain Necron collector could have intervened and put him in status.

He could have been vaporised.

If he did return I'd hope they would write him as hating what the imperium has become and there being real friction between him and gulliman. We know they disagreed after the heresy on how things should be run.

But I feel Russ, Corax, Vulcan and the Khan are just a bit more interesting story wise for a return.



Psycho-templar Dorn could be interesting, almost fell to Khorne Dorn could be interesting, came to his senses after his drawn-out suicide attempt almost suceeded enlightened Dorn could be interesting, something that claims to be Dorn but could be one of the Alphariuses could be interesting... there are many ways you could make Dorn in 40k a compelling character that rises above 'Lol wallz dude', but they would need a bit of daring...

IMHO they'll do the 'safer' Primarchs with established model lines beforehand, which means at least neo-Russ before Dorn.
   
Made in gb
Preparing the Invasion of Terra






 Tamereth wrote:
If he did return I'd hope they would write him as hating what the imperium has become and there being real friction between him and gulliman. We know they disagreed after the heresy on how things should be run.

Actually, that isn't true. Dorn disagreed that Codex Astartes was necessary to prevent another incident similar to the Horus Heresy but then he went into a deep meditative period before leading his Legion to Sebastus IV to bring Perturabo to heel. The Iron Cage was the catalyst for the Legion to come to the same revelation Dorn had, that the Legions of old needed to die. Guilliman's Codex was the way forward to prevent the hubris of the Primarchs from ever shattering the Imperium ever again. After the Iron Cage, Dorn was a strong ally of Guilliman and kept his legacy going after Guilliman was wounded and placed into stasis lock. Dorn even ordered the Third Founding before his eventual disappearance/death.
None of the Primarchs truly disagreed with Guilliman in the end because all who remained came to see the worth of his ideas. Even Russ who was perhaps the most vocal opponent of the Codex (and never fully implemented it into his own Legion) saw the logic and tactical capability of creating an entire lineage of Space Wolf Successors.
   
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The Dark Imperium

 Tamereth wrote:

If he did return I'd hope they would write him as hating what the imperium has become and there being real friction between him and gulliman. We know they disagreed after the heresy on how things should be run.


I guess that depends on how he returns. He's gonna have to have a talk with his BTs.

   
Made in gb
Preparing the Invasion of Terra






Nah, Dorn was fine with the Templars. He knew Sigismund was religious and he had the most zealous of the Imperial Fists join the Black Templars. He disagreed with the notion that the Emperor was a god but he clearlu came to terms enough with Sigismund's faith enough to give him command of the Siege when Dorn boarded the Vengeful Spirit and gave him an entire Successor Chapter.
   
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Regular Dakkanaut




I hope so more dead primarchs the better.
   
Made in gb
Esteemed Veteran Space Marine




UK

To quote reverend Lovejoy: Long answer yes with an if, short answer no with a but.

 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





Yes. He’s as dead as Boba Fett and the emperor in Return of the Jedi.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/05/04 15:47:11


 
   
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The Dark Imperium

 Gert wrote:
Nah, Dorn was fine with the Templars. He knew Sigismund was religious and he had the most zealous of the Imperial Fists join the Black Templars. He disagreed with the notion that the Emperor was a god but he clearlu came to terms enough with Sigismund's faith enough to give him command of the Siege when Dorn boarded the Vengeful Spirit and gave him an entire Successor Chapter.



You gotta think outside the box. Where would the excitement be in that? For all the talk about Dorn's character, I think maybe he just might decide he's had a enough of theological zealotry, and the further setting aside of his ideals and values, and his father and his father's values and ideals. Ideals which he sacrificed himself for now twice with first with his absolute devotion, and second with his disappearance. I'd welcome a civil war.

   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Dorn is possibly the most boring of the loyalist primarchs. Even more boring that Guilliman.

If you did want another human civil war (they still haven't finished the last one yet), it would probably be easier/more interesting to have it occur between Guilliman and one of the other primarchs (or even just some other imperials) rather than with Dorn specifically.

Like, Cawl taking too many liberties and thus leaving Guilliman questioning his decision to pump out a bunch of primaris could be a thing. Or Vulkan or Jaghatai arguing to break up the imperium into smaller, easier-to-manage pieces vs Guilliman's desire to keep the thing united. Or even just Russ returning and opting to sweep up portions of the imperium in his own crusade rather than coordinating with Guilliman.

I'm not sure Dorn has much to bring to the table unless they complete overhaul his character. (At which point a hefty percentage of Dorn fans would be displeased, and you should maybe just not bring him back in the first place.)

tldr; Dorn is boring, and we have plenty of other seeds planted for a civil war if that's the angle GW wants to take things.


ATTENTION
. Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
 
   
Made in se
Stubborn Hammerer




Sweden

Probably not. It's a better mystery if it is never known. And people who enjoy character-driven stories may enjoy his return. I've always enjoyed the end of Primarch stories hinting at a future return in a mythical future. Actually pulling it off may be enjoyed as an alternative timeline unless it it happens to be done masterfully, to keep the cake and eat it too.

Rogal Dorn should always be understood not only through the usual official material, but also through Ian Watson's 1993 mentions in Space Marine (in line with Rogue Trader background). With some discretion and reverse-engineering away from parody, TTS' Dorn could also be understood to be a stellar interpretation of the stolid character as well.

   
Made in us
Perfect Shot Black Templar Predator Pilot





The Dark Imperium

Everyone says he's boring. I think he's just misunderstood.

The Current civil war is kinda moot at this point. Dorn already avoided a second civil war immediately following the first. So maybe this time "he's had it up to here" since the Imperium has basically become the opposite of everything the unification was supposed to be about.

Not that I think Militant Atheism should get any special passes (IRL), but it all seems a bit ironic, if not hypocritical in the lore. Maybe I haven't read enough yet for it to make more sense.

So if he's going to be brought back it has to be dramatic. So we would see him really get bent like he did when he found out Sigismund was galivanting with Euphrati Keeler who filled Siggy up with visions.

   
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 Wyldhunt wrote:
Dorn is possibly the most boring of the loyalist primarchs. Even more boring that Guilliman.

If you did want another human civil war (they still haven't finished the last one yet), it would probably be easier/more interesting to have it occur between Guilliman and one of the other primarchs (or even just some other imperials) rather than with Dorn specifically.

Like, Cawl taking too many liberties and thus leaving Guilliman questioning his decision to pump out a bunch of primaris could be a thing. Or Vulkan or Jaghatai arguing to break up the imperium into smaller, easier-to-manage pieces vs Guilliman's desire to keep the thing united. Or even just Russ returning and opting to sweep up portions of the imperium in his own crusade rather than coordinating with Guilliman.

I'm not sure Dorn has much to bring to the table unless they complete overhaul his character. (At which point a hefty percentage of Dorn fans would be displeased, and you should maybe just not bring him back in the first place.)

tldr; Dorn is boring, and we have plenty of other seeds planted for a civil war if that's the angle GW wants to take things.


I think calling Dorn and G boring is a big unfair. The primarchs are much like the greek pantheon, reflections and extremes of humanity. You have paranoia in Curze, battlelust in Russ, Lorgar is faith and belief, Fulgrim vanity of course. Gulliman and Dorn just got unlucky representing planning and duty respectively. I can't remember who but in one Horus Heresy novel someone was reflecting how Dorn is trapped, by his duty, his own rigidity.

Also I think Dorn and G are probably the most, normal humanish? In many of the novels when they are interacting with humans they seem to interact well. It may be more of a case that many of the other primarchs are maladjusted weirdos which makes them more compelling just by being alien. Where as the builder and the bureaucrat are more, understandable.
   
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Just a flesh wound
   
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Fixture of Dakka





cody.d. wrote:
 Wyldhunt wrote:
Dorn is possibly the most boring of the loyalist primarchs. Even more boring that Guilliman.

If you did want another human civil war (they still haven't finished the last one yet), it would probably be easier/more interesting to have it occur between Guilliman and one of the other primarchs (or even just some other imperials) rather than with Dorn specifically.

Like, Cawl taking too many liberties and thus leaving Guilliman questioning his decision to pump out a bunch of primaris could be a thing. Or Vulkan or Jaghatai arguing to break up the imperium into smaller, easier-to-manage pieces vs Guilliman's desire to keep the thing united. Or even just Russ returning and opting to sweep up portions of the imperium in his own crusade rather than coordinating with Guilliman.

I'm not sure Dorn has much to bring to the table unless they complete overhaul his character. (At which point a hefty percentage of Dorn fans would be displeased, and you should maybe just not bring him back in the first place.)

tldr; Dorn is boring, and we have plenty of other seeds planted for a civil war if that's the angle GW wants to take things.


I think calling Dorn and G boring is a big unfair. The primarchs are much like the greek pantheon, reflections and extremes of humanity. You have paranoia in Curze, battlelust in Russ, Lorgar is faith and belief, Fulgrim vanity of course. Gulliman and Dorn just got unlucky representing planning and duty respectively. I can't remember who but in one Horus Heresy novel someone was reflecting how Dorn is trapped, by his duty, his own rigidity.

Also I think Dorn and G are probably the most, normal humanish? In many of the novels when they are interacting with humans they seem to interact well. It may be more of a case that many of the other primarchs are maladjusted weirdos which makes them more compelling just by being alien. Where as the builder and the bureaucrat are more, understandable.


While it's true that having more boring gimmicks (duty/planning) is "unfair," that doesn't change the fact that said gimmicks are still less immediately interesting elevator pitches than shadow-walking corvid man, werewolf viking, vampire angel, etc. This is why you're more likely to run into Poseidon and Athena than Hestia and Demeter in a video game or novel or whatever, right? It's not that Hestia and Demeter can't be interesting, but tidal waves and spears get you halfway there all on their own.

I haven't found Guilliman or Dorn to be especially "understandable." They're certainly less lofty/grandiose than some of the primarchs, but most primarchs (especially the loyalists) seem to be capable of some very "human" moments. So I'm not sure it's fair to say that the more boring the gimmick, the more relatable the character. I find a lot of Alpharius and the Khans' lines to be more relatable than Guilliman's .

Not throwing shade at anyone who enjoys Dorn or Guilliman. Guilliman has turned out to be miles more interesting than I expected him to be. However, a lot of that comes from his new "gimmick" being, "the loyalist primarch who came back and looked at the 41st millenium with 31st millenium eyes." Basically, they gave him a new angle to work to make up for the somewhat bland beuracrat angle. If you bring back Dorn, he can't play that same card without thematically stepping on Guilliman's toes or feeling like a retread of ground we've already covered.

So can you have Dorn come back and make it interesting? Sure. But you probably have to be a lot more clever/work a lot harder to pull it off than if you brought back, say, Russ.



ATTENTION
. Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
 
   
Made in de
Servoarm Flailing Magos




Germany

 Wyldhunt wrote:


So can you have Dorn come back and make it interesting? Sure. But you probably have to be a lot more clever/work a lot harder to pull it off than if you brought back, say, Russ.



There are certain avenues that suggest themselves - Dorn, 'The Wall Dude' coming back and deciding that being forced on the back-foot and defensive was the cardinal error that led to the ultimate result of the Heresy, and acknowledging that Space Marines are an instrument of conquest and rapid attacks, and should thus always strive to gain the initiative and be on the offensive, is one. Dorn going 'We have to all-out attack' and launching his own Crusade would be a nice twist to his character - if you have good writers, you make this somehow distinct form his quasi-mindless suicide attempt in the Iron Cage. Less Sigismund/Templars, more 'beware the wrath of a patient man' meticulous and calculated, but relentless advances. It also has in-built conflict with the High Lords that want to consolidate in the remaining half of the Imperium, and to a lesser degree Guilliman.
   
Made in gb
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The Iron Cage wasn't a suicide attempt but a mass torture-therapy session for the Imperial Fists where he still genuinely tried to achieve the goal of capturing Perturabo. Dorn needed to prove to his Legion what he had come to realise about the Codex reformations and saw the capture of the Legion's most hated foe as the perfect opportunity.
He knew that Sebastus IV was a trap but it was one he intended to use against the Iron Warriors. Dorn knew that even if the Fists didn't capture Perturabo then the lessons learned there would show why they needed to be divided. The passions and whims of one man led the Imperium to ruin in the Heresy and Dorn needed to show that it wasn't just the Traitors who could make mistakes.
   
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Tsagualsa wrote:
 Wyldhunt wrote:


So can you have Dorn come back and make it interesting? Sure. But you probably have to be a lot more clever/work a lot harder to pull it off than if you brought back, say, Russ.



There are certain avenues that suggest themselves - Dorn, 'The Wall Dude' coming back and deciding that being forced on the back-foot and defensive was the cardinal error that led to the ultimate result of the Heresy, and acknowledging that Space Marines are an instrument of conquest and rapid attacks, and should thus always strive to gain the initiative and be on the offensive, is one. Dorn going 'We have to all-out attack' and launching his own Crusade would be a nice twist to his character - if you have good writers, you make this somehow distinct form his quasi-mindless suicide attempt in the Iron Cage. Less Sigismund/Templars, more 'beware the wrath of a patient man' meticulous and calculated, but relentless advances. It also has in-built conflict with the High Lords that want to consolidate in the remaining half of the Imperium, and to a lesser degree Guilliman.

I feel like doing that would risk just throwing out a lot of what people like about Dorn. That seems akin to having Alpharius show back up and suddenly favor straight-forward overwhelming force attacks rather than schemes. Plus, given the Indomitus Crusades, I'm not sure Dorn wanting to do yet another Crusade would be a source of much drama.

"I demand we crusade!"
"Cool, bro. Wanna take command of the next crusade fleet I've got lined up?"


ATTENTION
. Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
 
   
Made in us
Perfect Shot Black Templar Predator Pilot





The Dark Imperium

I'd say it's reasonable to assume that with no one knowing where his body is, that his hand is simply and anchor for a future return.

   
Made in us
Terrifying Doombull




 Adeptekon wrote:
I'd say it's reasonable to assume that with no one knowing where his body is, that his hand is simply and anchor for a future return.

Sometimes history is just set dressing.
Not every detail needs to be a hook. In fact, most details shouldn't be hooks. Makes for a stupidly busy mess.

Once upon a time, GW was better about this.

Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
 
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