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If you think about it, they really are out of place.

This is a world based on something resembling the late middle ages with massive overtones of the early renaissance. The Imperial Cult is the Catholic Church. NOTE: I AM NOT TRYING TO BE INSULTING HERE. It is certainly the institution out of which the Inquisition arose, and as an organization, it did what was seen as necessary to fight the Muslims -aliens from without- and protestants -heretics from within- to preserve what was seen as the divine order so please, lets go nowhere down that road, its not the point.

Rather, the point is that all of this stuff is very medieval. In fact, 40k kinda hits you over the head with its medievalness.

Then along comes the commissariat, which is straight up Soviet Russia with big overtones of the SS.

Don't get me wrong. The commissars are a lot of fun. But do they really fit? In a way the Inquisition and the Commissariat somehow both seem to belong, but I'm not sure why I think that. They certainly are very different ages different answers to what is seen as the same problem.

And yet, somehow, I like them both, even though I raise this issue, and I wouldn't junk either one, though I'm not sure why.

Thoughts?

I think approaching 40k as something mean to be thematically cohesive is flawed.

40k is mean to be one giant mixing bowl of whatever the writers and artists and even players found cool, consistency be damned.

I think the commissars make sense from a couple of perspectives.

One, subversive thoughts are an actual, dangerous thing in the 40k universe. Commissars watch for the taint of chaos, of course, but they also just generally watch out for issues that could cause guardsmen to turn renegade and dessert to become bandits or something.

Two, discipline. You have storied regiments from worlds like Cadia, Moebius, Armaggedon, etc. with long histories of victory, high levels of training, and duty instilled into their regiments. You also have gakky backward regiments that were literally thrown together because a backwards world suddenly had to tithe up ten thousands dregs who end up being armed with whatever was found in Emperor's Discount Cadian Surplus store. These are men and women who were likely dregs of society, given the minimum (or no) training, then thrown into the wider universe where they're unlikely to even see another regiment from their homeworld ever again--and the closest thing the individual guardsman will ever see of their homeworld again are when reinforcements arrive from there to fill out their losses. Commissars will be able to maintain discipline, being a separate corps that is not beholden to the tithe worlds' flaws. They'll make a very effective stick to keep the conscripts in line until they're actual guardsmen who will be willing to die for the Emperor. Or be shot.

As a spin off for discipline, commissars also dispense justice. Laws on planets can differ drastically from planet to planet--murder on one planet might be a capital offense, while on another it could just be a fine. Commissars have the authority to bypass the bureaucracy for the average guardsmen and dispense justice immediately, whether that's confinement to the brig, reduced rations, hard labor, shipping to a penal colony, or even execution.

And lastly, morale. Commissars aren't just grim execution happy caricatures (it's often hinted that commissars who abuse their authority will often become victims of friendly fire incidents in the heat of combat). They're there to ensure the health and morale of the regiment. They'll monitor the state of the men and report it to the officers. They'll offer encouragement and advice. They'll often be charismatic and well-liked, at least as far as they can be as someone who has authority to field execute almost anyone in your chain of command.

All of this is very important when you account that guardsmen is a profession. When you're in the guard, your job is war. If you're lucky, you'll end up as a garrison regiment and die before a dark eldar raid, tyranid hive fleet, chaos invasion, etc. makes your life interesting. If you're unlucky, you'll get attached as part of a crusade fleet, where you can expect to serve--if you live that long--fifty or more years doing nothing but fighting in conflict or being transported to fight in conflict with madness and horror that can even give pause to the mighty astartes. Considering you might be a farm hand that can't even spell out his name and six months later, you're throwing down with an ork waaagh!, yeah, commissars are important.

But its not 'medieval'.

Kriegsmen are ww1 germans, cadians are ww2 ameeicans, gusrd in general have always had a ww1 'over the top' meets stalingrad thing going. tau are near-future mech-heavy anime, space marines can be anything from medirval crusading knights-in-space (black templars) to modern spec-ops (raven guard/raptors), classical Greeks and Romans (ultramarines), Spartans (minotaurs etc), necrons are ancient Egypt meets terminator, etc.

The imperial cult has all the pomp.and ceremony (and madness) of the church on steroids for sure, and definately has the medieval vibe but it's incorrect to say this is the only thematic influence, or even the main thematic influence in the game.

40K is not a straight historical parallel, it's not in any way unusual that it draws inspiration from several periods in the same way it collects elements of Dune and Foundation and Moorcock. Why does it have Genestealers, an obvious take on Xenomorphs, when the setting has a God-Emperor like Dune? there were no Xenomorphs in Dune!

The 40K Inquisition is nothing like the historical Inquisition OR Commissars, the Inquisition in 40k is a group given ultimate authority to pursue their goals unconstrained by the strict rules that govern the rest of the Imperium, and while many do use this to hunt down threats and take a militant approach, many others do it via research or information gathering. They are not aligned to a single goal and they do not all go about their goals in the same way. I'm fairly sure there was no faction within the Catholic Inquisition that thought "Hey, maybe witches are a good thing, actually, and also what if we killed God"

Commissars in 40k are morale officers and enforcers, they ensure that the troops they are assigned to do maintain standards of discipline and order, they are strict adherents to the rules in a way almost diametrically opposed to the Inquisition. the Inquisition is the closest the Imperium has to free thinkers (it's just that some of those people come to the conclusion that strict adherence is the correct path to go down)

In short: you're overthinking it. GW took some names and concepts from a bunch of places and shoved them into 40k with varying levels of disregard to their original context.

Saying 'Imperium = [European ]Middle Ages' is the sort of incredibly reductionist simplification which has led to so much of 40k being badly flanderised.

 Lord Damocles wrote:
Saying 'Imperium = [European ]Middle Ages' is the sort of incredibly reductionist simplification which has led to so much of 40k being badly flanderised.

Indeed. If there are a million worlds, ranging from the most primitive to the most advanced, there are at least a million shades of gray to anything in the IoM. Contradictions only deepen the setting.

In the case of Astra Militarum, I like to think they act very often similarly to a particular Imperial armed forces of one real-world nation, which also happens to have a two-headed eagle as their symbol. People drafted straight from prison, given 50-years old (or even older) gear, and stuffed to the front line. Commissariat will keep comrades in line. Onward!

In short?

Not at all, no.

As noted above, not all Astra Militarum Regiments are the same, or even close to being the same.

The Commissariat is there as much to oversee the troopers as it is the Commanders. Because whilst the Guard hurl untold millions of souls into the meat grinder every day? Doing so wastefully is still squandering His resources. If you’re getting tens of thousands killed, and failing your objectives, the Commissar can and will execute you for incompetence just as readily as a Trooper who fled from battle.

If there is indecision in command, the Commissar can cast the final vote for want of a better expression.

They’re oversight essentially, a step above and outside the wider command structure.

Pretty much just echoing what everyone else has said. The Imperium isn't just taken from one historical timeframe.

Hive Cities, for example, take a lot of their inspiration from Industrial Revolution Britain where thousands of people flocked to major cities and lived in cramped terrible tenement housing often just around the corner from the factories, smelteries, and shipyards the people worked in. Cities like Glasgow, Birmingham, and London from this period are the kind of baseline for a Hive City with the finished product being overemphasized a hundredfold.

Commissars aren't just executioners either but rather political officers whose primary role is to watch for sedition or traitorous behaviour. Yes, they can and do shoot soldiers who break Guard regulations but generally speaking this is in rare cases such as dereliction of duty or possession of banned narcotics like Obscura. Officers often have important familial or political connections on their homeworlds so they often get arrested and given court martial rather than immediate execution, while the lower ranks are often given beatings or other punishment detail such as assignment to high-risk missions or to penal battalions.
Shooting soldiers is a good way for a Commissar to end up getting caught in "accidental crossfire" and most know better than to go around killing Guardsmen just for the hell of it.

Imperial Commissars absolutely fit. The Imperium is all the most depraved aspects of human history rolled into one, then dialled up to eleven and thrown into space.

This is key to all 40k worldbuilding. It's a smörgåsbord. The scope is not limited to particular periods of time or particular regions of the world. It is all-encompassing. Expect, for instance, a lot of the worse sides of Chinese Imperial history to be highly useful for 40k worldbuilding.

40k is not a direct historical analogue. It's a mishmash of whatever grim-darkness was on the mind of a bunch of semi-rebellious Brits in the late 80's. Commissars fit perfectly in the pastiche-of-hopelessness that was Rogue Trader and they still fit well today. I would go so far as to say that in as much as they represent...

implacable authority, blind religious devotion, military might and the reality that for the average sad sack your own side might be as dangerous to you as the enemy

...they might be among the truest embodiments of Warhammer 40k.

 NapoleonInSpace wrote:


Thoughts?

The Imperium is a satire and caricature of despotic regimes of our world and history. Thus, it as every single one of the worst aspects of all of the worst regimes so political officers meant to shoot conscript and soldiers trying to bend or break inhumane orders were a given as were brainwashed child soldiers, penal troopers, crusading zealots, poor conscripted grunts sent to catch bullets, etc.

Does it make sense? No, not really, the Imperium is supposed to be an insane mess hence why it's falling apart.

Personally I reckon they fit. They're much like a smaller version of inquisitors, big brother watching over you, willing to off you at the moments notice.

The Imperium is a dystopia where life is cheap, everything is tightly controlled, almost no one has any free will and religious fascism is the name of the game.

Yes not all commisars are shoot first ask questions never, some like Cain actually put in the effort to hold things together without pulling the trigger. (Though that was so he didn't get friendly fired more than anything)

There has always been the love of the normal person facing off against xenos, demon and human terrors. But the idea that if they did break they would be shot does add that extra bit of grimdark. Especially like in the fall of Cadia a Commisar shot a veteran because they were carrying a wounded soldier and their rifle had been damaged in the fight. Just how bad this universe is part of the charm, a parody of how bad our current time could get.

Not for the majority of Guard regiments, no.

They fit in the Cruddace-verse version though.

epronovost wrote:
The Imperium is a satire and caricature of despotic regimes of our world and history. Thus, it as every single one of the worst aspects of all of the worst regimes so political officers meant to shoot conscript and soldiers trying to bend or break inhumane orders were a given as were brainwashed child soldiers, penal troopers, crusading zealots, poor conscripted grunts sent to catch bullets, etc.

Does it make sense? No, not really, the Imperium is supposed to be an insane mess hence why it's falling apart.

Yes.

The whole point of a "grim darkness" setting is that it is the worst of all possible worlds.

And what is worse than having the industrial-scale slaughter of the Soviet Union combined with an over-the-top cartoon caricature of the medieval Catholic Church?

40k began as Dune + Judge Dread, and since then has become a grab bag of various borrowed and outright stolen ideas totally original concepts with no outside influence*.

The idea that they looked at political commissars and thought "That's cool for the Guard" makes as about as much sense as them taking Rambo and making him into an entire planet, Mongolian hordes and turning them into both mounted cavalry for the Guard and biker dues for Marines, Romans and Vampires and Vikings for Space Marines, and anime for the Tau.

40k is such a massive collage of so many different, complementary and conflicting ideas that really nothing feels out of place. Except the Tau. Someone needs to fire them into the sun.




*As attested to, in court, under oath**!

**I don't actually know if they were under oath, but it was in court!

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
40k began as Dune + Judge Dread, and since then has become a grab bag of various borrowed and outright stolen ideas totally original concepts with no outside influence*.

The ghost of Lionel Johnson has something to say about the Dark Angels.

Commissars fit.

Commissars IRL were political officers who were inserted within the Soviet military to police it. The military operated as it normally did, with the Commissars there to watch for any disloyalty to the Communist party or ideals. They technically outrank all military officers and can take command if they deem necessary.

40k Commissars are similar in function. They are independent actors embedded within the Imperial military to police the ranks for disloyalty, sedition, etc... and keep the soldiers fighting at gunpoint if necessary.

Yes, 40k has a lot of medieval inspirations. The medieval Catholic church, crusading knights, etc... It also has a lot of general inspiration from all totalitarian governments. Commissars are suitably grimdark. What is more 40k than executing a few fleeing soldiers to make the rest stand and fight?

Perhaps unlike the real Commissars of the Soviet Union, 40k Commissars have a more embedded function. They are there to uplift the morale of the soldiers as well has enforce the rules and look for disloyalty. They're kinda like Military Police, Judges, and Counsellers all in one.

They are also a way for the Imperium to enforce some standardization among the many millions of regiments. Commissars are all educated by the Schola Progenum, not by individual worlds, and thus there is more control over how they will command their soldiers and enforce the rules. They are educated to be battlefield commanders(unlike Soviet Commissars who were just political goons with a gun and authority) as well, so they are actually competent leaders too if they feel the need to take out a bad commander.

Altima wrote:


And lastly, morale. Commissars aren't just grim execution happy caricatures (it's often hinted that commissars who abuse their authority will often become victims of friendly fire incidents in the heat of combat). They're there to ensure the health and morale of the regiment. They'll monitor the state of the men and report it to the officers. They'll offer encouragement and advice. They'll often be charismatic and well-liked, at least as far as they can be as someone who has authority to field execute almost anyone in your chain of command.

Definitely something to that. I did read a Gaunts Ghosts novel or two, though I usually find game world books pretty revolting, but I can see ole' Ibram in what you're saying.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lord Damocles wrote:
Saying 'Imperium = [European ]Middle Ages' is the sort of incredibly reductionist simplification which has led to so much of 40k being badly flanderised.

Certainly the closest historical parallel though?

I get it that (as so many on thie thread have stated) the 40K universe is a giant mixing bowl into which you throw whatever sounds fun and see how it tastes once baked, but certainly that is central, even more than Dune's god-emperor?.

 NapoleonInSpace wrote:
Certainly the closest historical parallel though?

I get it that (as so many on thie thread have stated) the 40K universe is a giant mixing bowl into which you throw whatever sounds fun and see how it tastes once baked, but certainly that is central, even more than Dune's god-emperor?.

Not really. It's only in really specific circumstances or romanticised/entirely inaccurate ways that the Imperium is similar to the Middle Ages. Even a Eurocentric view isn't very close beyond poor people being poor and rich people being rich.

 Gert wrote:

 NapoleonInSpace wrote:
Certainly the closest historical parallel though?

I get it that (as so many on thie thread have stated) the 40K universe is a giant mixing bowl into which you throw whatever sounds fun and see how it tastes once baked, but certainly that is central, even more than Dune's god-emperor?.

Not really. It's only in really specific circumstances or romanticised/entirely inaccurate ways that the Imperium is similar to the Middle Ages. Even a Eurocentric view isn't very close beyond poor people being poor and rich people being rich.

Warhammer 40k is like one of these optical illusions, you can make it look like a lot of things if you look at if from one angle, but it 'is' not these things. The Imperium can look like Byzantium/Eastern Rome, but it can also look like Dark-Ages Britannia, Arthurian Myth, Three-Kingdoms era China, A Canticle for Leibowitz-world, WW2 Battle for Stalingrad, Terminator, Mars Attacks, War of the Worlds, Blade Runner, Dracula, and a lot of other things besides. It is big, it contains multitudes.

 NapoleonInSpace wrote:
Then along comes the commissariat, which is straight up Soviet Russia with big overtones of the SS

No one pointed out that the basic premise is completely wrong to begin with?

Soviet 'Commissars' had nothing in common with 40K ones outside of trash red scare made up BS. They were political officers, supposed to educate troops and explain to the troops why new government is better, improving their morale, not worsening it by shooting them. In fact, when the war started in 1941 they were removed from ranks (to improve speed and efficiency of command, so that commanding officer doesn't doublecheck everything with them) and placed in command of military unit bulletins/newspapers plus overseeing supply and staffing levels (again, morale).

If 40K ones look 'SS' to you, it's because they were actually based on Nazi kriegs-komissars (and other para-MP thugs in different branches of armed forces like FJK below) enforcing Hitler's 'not a single step back' series of orders. If you want goons shooting wavering troops for daring to retreat a few steps, it's actually these dudes (who were really common from 1943 onward, especially on the Eastern front, not that you ever see it in movies, alas, and especially not in memoirs of German officers who were heavily using them for some funny reason).

Everything in early 40K Commissar models, from uniforms, to hats, to chest crests, actually looks German because it was in reality. Hell, they even had red armbands and certain cross symbol once though it was quickly toned down with transition out of Rogue Trader. That bit of 40K was written/illustrated back when people actually remembered Nazis were bad dudes, not the freshly shaven Aryan supermodels in immaculate Armani suits who dindunuffin wehraboo old and new propaganda shows them as. Just look at this, does it remind you of anything?

Artists steal, this is no secret. 40k just might be the greatest piece of art ever made.

 Adeptekon wrote:
Artists steal, this is no secret. 40k just might be the greatest piece of art ever made.

The genius of 40k is that they didn't just steal from one or two things, they stole from everything.

Tsagualsa wrote:

 Gert wrote:

 NapoleonInSpace wrote:
Certainly the closest historical parallel though?

I get it that (as so many on thie thread have stated) the 40K universe is a giant mixing bowl into which you throw whatever sounds fun and see how it tastes once baked, but certainly that is central, even more than Dune's god-emperor?.

Not really. It's only in really specific circumstances or romanticised/entirely inaccurate ways that the Imperium is similar to the Middle Ages. Even a Eurocentric view isn't very close beyond poor people being poor and rich people being rich.

Warhammer 40k is like one of these optical illusions, you can make it look like a lot of things if you look at if from one angle, but it 'is' not these things. The Imperium can look like Byzantium/Eastern Rome, but it can also look like Dark-Ages Britannia, Arthurian Myth, Three-Kingdoms era China, A Canticle for Leibowitz-world, WW2 Battle for Stalingrad, Terminator, Mars Attacks, War of the Worlds, Blade Runner, Dracula, and a lot of other things besides. It is big, it contains multitudes.

No question about any of that, but some fits are certainly closer, or at least more obvious than others.

While, for example, the Adeptus Custodes are based on the Praetorian Guard, in some ways, I think it would be hard to say that 40k is a closer fit to the Roman Empire than to the High Middle Ages? Another example might go back to Inquisitor (different game, yes, but same universe) which had a lot of the flavor of Old West gunfights, but, again, that was very much a side issue.

Certainly some periods are more central to 40k than others?

 NapoleonInSpace wrote:
No question about any of that, but some fits are certainly closer, or at least more obvious than others.

While, for example, the Adeptus Custodes are based on the Praetorian Guard, in some ways, I think it would be hard to say that 40k is a closer fit to the Roman Empire than to the High Middle Ages? Another example might go back to Inquisitor (different game, yes, but same universe) which had a lot of the flavor of Old West gunfights, but, again, that was very much a side issue.

Certainly some periods are more central to 40k than others?

Some themes and historical inspirations are more central yes but not specific periods of history because they are massively diverse depending on when and where you look. The Middle Ages in rural England were radically different from the Middle Ages in the Arabian Peninsula for example.

Commissar von Toussaint wrote:

 Adeptekon wrote:
Artists steal, this is no secret. 40k just might be the greatest piece of art ever made.

The genius of 40k is that they didn't just steal from one or two things, they stole from everything.

Literally.

 NapoleonInSpace wrote:

Tsagualsa wrote:

 Gert wrote:

 NapoleonInSpace wrote:
Certainly the closest historical parallel though?

I get it that (as so many on thie thread have stated) the 40K universe is a giant mixing bowl into which you throw whatever sounds fun and see how it tastes once baked, but certainly that is central, even more than Dune's god-emperor?.

Not really. It's only in really specific circumstances or romanticised/entirely inaccurate ways that the Imperium is similar to the Middle Ages. Even a Eurocentric view isn't very close beyond poor people being poor and rich people being rich.

Warhammer 40k is like one of these optical illusions, you can make it look like a lot of things if you look at if from one angle, but it 'is' not these things. The Imperium can look like Byzantium/Eastern Rome, but it can also look like Dark-Ages Britannia, Arthurian Myth, Three-Kingdoms era China, A Canticle for Leibowitz-world, WW2 Battle for Stalingrad, Terminator, Mars Attacks, War of the Worlds, Blade Runner, Dracula, and a lot of other things besides. It is big, it contains multitudes.

No question about any of that, but some fits are certainly closer, or at least more obvious than others.

While, for example, the Adeptus Custodes are based on the Praetorian Guard, in some ways, I think it would be hard to say that 40k is a closer fit to the Roman Empire than to the High Middle Ages? Another example might go back to Inquisitor (different game, yes, but same universe) which had a lot of the flavor of Old West gunfights, but, again, that was very much a side issue.

Certainly some periods are more central to 40k than others?

If any period was more 'central' to 40k, its the reality that was the grim 1970s to 80s post-industrial thatcherite UK. And 80s pop culture.

The Roman Empire does have a huge impact on the 40k lore (as big as the medieval era in my opinion), but it is framed in a manner that feels familiar to Brits with the way we are taught history- the shining Roman empire collapsing and giving way to the medieval dark ages.

The Imperium during the Great Crusade and Horus Heresy heavily references the Roman empire, the principal military forces are even legions at the command of the Emperor. The later Imperium carries vestiges of this, with people harking back to the early days to shore up their own authority (similar to, for example, the Holy Roman Empire or Sultanate of Rum).

This does what references are supposed to do- provide a cultural shorthand metaphor for understanding the themes of the setting- hope dashed into despair. As 40k was made in Nottingham, England, it naturally uses references familiar to its creators and target audience of the time. If 40k had originated elsewhere, its main references would be different in keeping with those cultures.

Deadnight wrote:
If any period was more 'central' to 40k, its the reality that was the grim 1970s to 80s post-industrial thatcherite UK. And 80s pop culture.

Yes, this is probably the only "indigenous" element to the game that wasn't outright pilfered - post-industrial cities rules by violent gangs who are periodically beaten down by pitiless police forces while the elites hang out in the spires. The whole Ork aesthetic is also very punk British.