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 Xenomancers wrote:

Shaso_Keo wrote:
I only take 1 and sometimes it does nothing. Other times it does everything. A great way to weaken a riptide is to focus fire the marker light support, commanders and pathfinders. Without markerlights the tau army as a whole gets weaker.


Reason i compare to thunderwolf cavalry is that TWC is devastating against Tau and there is very little we can do against it. 12" move and a refilling charge is very threatening to Tau. I would dare say there is little tau can do to stop the wolves.

Why don't you tarpit them with a riptide? It would take them all game to kill one.

Did you just seriously suggest to tarpit something wiht a higher priced unit as a valid stratagy?

 Savageconvoy wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
It's never just one. So the tri- or tetra- Riptide list decimates an enemy list and then the Tau loses *maybe* one to a gets hot roll. Sure seems worth it to me.

A few things. First off, we've already discussed the problems with your games. It's not the Riptide, it's the players and the tables. You can actively do something to fix your problem, but choose not to. We can't help you there.
The second is that you still want a solution that makes multiple Riptides bad and would ruin it for people that want to take one, and make sure nobody ever fields a HBC which will not fix the problem.
You keep harping on about how it can wipe out a lot of enemies. We get that. Everyone gets that. The IA is broken. Fine. Nobody has ever said otherwise in this thread that I am aware of.
Why does the HBC version have to suffer for that?

I didn't say make them bad. Make them fair. And remove gets hot from the HBC; there's no reason for it to have that rule. I'm fine with that. But 2+ T6 FNP W5 shouldn't exist in the game, and if we have to have it, make it cost more. This has nothing to do with LOS blocking terrain. The fact that when I shoot Riptides back, nothing happens, and when they shoot me I die is the problem I'm discussing. It's not like Riptides never get LOS on tables with LOS blocking terrain.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Shaso_Keo wrote:
I only take 1 and sometimes it does nothing. Other times it does everything. A great way to weaken a riptide is to focus fire the marker light support, commanders and pathfinders. Without markerlights the tau army as a whole gets weaker.


Reason i compare to thunderwolf cavalry is that TWC is devastating against Tau and there is very little we can do against it. 12" move and a refilling charge is very threatening to Tau. I would dare say there is little tau can do to stop the wolves.

I find this really, really hard to believe.

What about that statement do you find so hard to believe? If it's regarding his suggestion of your target priority, NEWSFLASH: Riptides are NOT scary without marker light support. Tau rely on the synergy of their marker lights to be effective. Kill the marker lights early, and the tau still have scary guns but suddenly don't shoot them any better than guardsmen....

Chaos Companion wrote:
What about that statement do you find so hard to believe? If it's regarding his suggestion of your target priority, NEWSFLASH: Riptides are NOT scary without marker light support. Tau rely on the synergy of their marker lights to be effective. Kill the marker lights early, and the tau still have scary guns but suddenly don't shoot them any better than guardsmen....

While True, better hope you have weapons that can shoot at least 36" that can ignore cover while simultaneously going first. otherwise target priority will go the other way as well.

I find it hard to believe that the Tau can't stop wolf cavalry. High yield missile pods (the other thing in addition to IA that every Tau list seems to have) spam them to death the same as they spam everything to death. Oh, here's 30 wounds, hold that for me chief. If this were to be true, my BA might as well just concede every game to Thunderwolf cavalry, because we have literally no chance if the Tau can't stop them. The BA, with their incredible ranks of non-firepower.

Martel732 wrote:
I find it hard to believe that the Tau can't stop wolf cavalry. High yield missile pods (the other thing in addition to IA that every Tau list seems to have) spam them to death the same as they spam everything to death. Oh, here's 30 wounds, hold that for me chief. If this were to be true, my BA might as well just concede every game to Thunderwolf cavalry, because we have literally no chance if the Tau can't stop them. The BA, with their incredible ranks of non-firepower.

They only need to make 30 wounds?

If anything Tau can do that at range in at least 2 turns. (wait is this 30 wounds total or 30 wounds after a 3++?)

30 wounds before saves. I just pulled out what sounds like a big number. Maybe the Tau can cause even more wounds to them easily. 30 just sounded like a reasonable number for Tau, but out of reach for my marines.

 BoomWolf wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Shaso_Keo wrote:
I only take 1 and sometimes it does nothing. Other times it does everything. A great way to weaken a riptide is to focus fire the marker light support, commanders and pathfinders. Without markerlights the tau army as a whole gets weaker.


Reason i compare to thunderwolf cavalry is that TWC is devastating against Tau and there is very little we can do against it. 12" move and a refilling charge is very threatening to Tau. I would dare say there is little tau can do to stop the wolves.

Why don't you tarpit them with a riptide? It would take them all game to kill one.

Did you just seriously suggest to tarpit something wiht a higher priced unit as a valid stratagy?

You do what you got to do sometimes. Obviously you try to kill them with shooting first...if that fails...you lock them up with an indestructible MC. Unless ofc you want them to go ham over all your fire warriors. Also it's not necessarily a cheaper unit. If it's 4 TWC - it actually costs more...If it includes a warlord...it actually costs a lot more - though if it includes an instant death weapon I could see this being a big mistake sending in a riptide. My point is even with a squad putting out 20+ rending str 5 attacks this thing will live easily. This is a great time to cast that 3++ and take little to no damage from one of the strongest CC squads in the game.

Well the nice thing about Tau is they are S5 with their guns so they still wound on a 4+, the BS itself is modifiable so... they theoretically are the go to troops to handle TWC.

At least the Tau have an indestructible MC to tarpit them with. Sounds like a good plan to me.

Martel732 wrote:
At least the Tau have an indestructible MC to tarpit them with. Sounds like a good plan to me.

That sounds dumb as feth (or am i missing the sarcasm?)

The thing only needs to fail 1 nova charge for 3++ (or have had it on on the turn it was charged or charging) otherwise there is no way in feth it will survive the dumb amount of ST10 attacks and hammers and stuff.

Martel732 wrote:
I find it hard to believe that the Tau can't stop wolf cavalry. High yield missile pods (the other thing in addition to IA that every Tau list seems to have) spam them to death the same as they spam everything to death. Oh, here's 30 wounds, hold that for me chief. If this were to be true, my BA might as well just concede every game to Thunderwolf cavalry, because we have literally no chance if the Tau can't stop them. The BA, with their incredible ranks of non-firepower.

Typical tau cries...complain about something when in fact the tau are best equipt to deal with with said complaint. Who else has spare 30 inch str 5 shots on their basic troops to obliterate thunder-wolves?

 Xenomancers wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I find it hard to believe that the Tau can't stop wolf cavalry. High yield missile pods (the other thing in addition to IA that every Tau list seems to have) spam them to death the same as they spam everything to death. Oh, here's 30 wounds, hold that for me chief. If this were to be true, my BA might as well just concede every game to Thunderwolf cavalry, because we have literally no chance if the Tau can't stop them. The BA, with their incredible ranks of non-firepower.

Typical tau cries...complain about something when in fact the tau are best equipt to deal with with said complaint. Who else has spare 30 inch str 5 shots on their basic troops to obliterate thunder-wolves?

You still need a Butt load of shots to go through 3+/3++. and these things are fast.

I dont has wolf book but what are there wound stats and can they get fnp normally? and typical unit size? i actually wana see how many shots

 Desubot wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
At least the Tau have an indestructible MC to tarpit them with. Sounds like a good plan to me.

That sounds dumb as feth (or am i missing the sarcasm?)

The thing only needs to fail 1 nova charge for 3++ (or have had it on on the turn it was charged or charging) otherwise there is no way in feth it will survive the dumb amount of ST10 attacks and hammers and stuff.

It may only have to buy a turn or two to facilitate the victory, however. I'm sorry it's only indestructible 66% of the time, as opposed to the 0% of the time my BA are indestructible.

 Desubot wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
At least the Tau have an indestructible MC to tarpit them with. Sounds like a good plan to me.

That sounds dumb as feth (or am i missing the sarcasm?)

The thing only needs to fail 1 nova charge for 3++ (or have had it on on the turn it was charged or charging) otherwise there is no way in feth it will survive the dumb amount of ST10 attacks and hammers and stuff.

Thunder wolves will kill every fire warrior in your army in 3 turns...or take 3-4 turns to kill a riptide. It's up to you. If wolves are about to enter your lines - you feed em a riptide...it is okay because...you have 2 more. Who knows - you might eve get lucky and kill a few with your riptide.

 Desubot wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I find it hard to believe that the Tau can't stop wolf cavalry. High yield missile pods (the other thing in addition to IA that every Tau list seems to have) spam them to death the same as they spam everything to death. Oh, here's 30 wounds, hold that for me chief. If this were to be true, my BA might as well just concede every game to Thunderwolf cavalry, because we have literally no chance if the Tau can't stop them. The BA, with their incredible ranks of non-firepower.

Typical tau cries...complain about something when in fact the tau are best equipt to deal with with said complaint. Who else has spare 30 inch str 5 shots on their basic troops to obliterate thunder-wolves?

You still need a Butt load of shots to go through 3+/3++. and these things are fast.

I dont has wolf book but what are there wound stats and can they get fnp normally? and typical unit size? i actually wana see how many shots

If they don't have 2+ base save, then spamming wounds will kill them in short order. Clearing 33% of all wounds will whittle a squad down very quickly.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Battlesuits should just be changed to Walkers.

This...

 Desubot wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I find it hard to believe that the Tau can't stop wolf cavalry. High yield missile pods (the other thing in addition to IA that every Tau list seems to have) spam them to death the same as they spam everything to death. Oh, here's 30 wounds, hold that for me chief. If this were to be true, my BA might as well just concede every game to Thunderwolf cavalry, because we have literally no chance if the Tau can't stop them. The BA, with their incredible ranks of non-firepower.

Typical tau cries...complain about something when in fact the tau are best equipt to deal with with said complaint. Who else has spare 30 inch str 5 shots on their basic troops to obliterate thunder-wolves?

You still need a Butt load of shots to go through 3+/3++. and these things are fast.

I dont has wolf book but what are there wound stats and can they get fnp normally? and typical unit size? i actually wana see how many shots

Nah no FNP. They are just t5 2w 3++ marines with 4 rending attacks...yeah - they are incredibly awesome. It will take them 5-6 rounds of combat to kill a ripetide and along the way the rip could possibly snag a few himself. My experience with SW though...they can't win without their thunder-wolves - they are just regular marines without chapter tactics without those things.

Usuaully they run in groups of 4. 1 will have a powerfist and 3 have rending attacks. 4 attacks each at str 5 and str 9 power fist on the boss. They also have counter attack so they will have 20 attacks turn 1 with 3+ to hit. With 3++ up though rip only takes 22% of wounds from a powerfist and rends 11% of wounds from none rends. The riptide will not win this combat but it potentially can cause a few wounds. Like I was saying the only reason you would do this is to tie the wolves up so you can win. Tau got nothing else that can do this...they shouldn't have a unit that can do this...but they do.

Wait 2 wounds? i thought they where 3

So 12 wounds with a 3++ basically? martel got it near right at 30 wounds

Yeah Tau should be able to put that many wounds on 1 turn of shooting with everything. EVERYTHING!

Are TWC really that scary for Tau? Isn't that a perfect example of where Supporting Fire is downright brutal? They probably suck to face, but my Tau are my one army that I think can handle them...

 Desubot wrote:
Wait 2 wounds? i thought they where 3

So 12 wounds with a 3++ basically? martel got it near right at 30 wounds

Yeah Tau should be able to put that many wounds on 1 turn of shooting with everything. EVERYTHING!

I've had Tau do considerably more wounds to me than that in a single turn. It shouldn't take an entire list. Hell, I had Eldar do 71 once. Sounds like these TWF are just another squad asking to be casualties of Xeno firepower.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I find it hard to believe that the Tau can't stop wolf cavalry. High yield missile pods (the other thing in addition to IA that every Tau list seems to have) spam them to death the same as they spam everything to death. Oh, here's 30 wounds, hold that for me chief. If this were to be true, my BA might as well just concede every game to Thunderwolf cavalry, because we have literally no chance if the Tau can't stop them. The BA, with their incredible ranks of non-firepower.

Typical tau cries...complain about something when in fact the tau are best equipt to deal with with said complaint. Who else has spare 30 inch str 5 shots on their basic troops to obliterate thunder-wolves?

You still need a Butt load of shots to go through 3+/3++. and these things are fast.

I dont has wolf book but what are there wound stats and can they get fnp normally? and typical unit size? i actually wana see how many shots

Nah no FNP. They are just t5 2w 3++ marines with 4 rending attacks...yeah - they are incredibly awesome. It will take them 5-6 rounds of combat to kill a ripetide and along the way the rip could possibly snag a few himself. My experience with SW though...they can't win without their thunder-wolves - they are just regular marines without chapter tactics without those things.

Usuaully they run in groups of 4. 1 will have a powerfist and 3 have rending attacks. 4 attacks each at str 5 and str 9 power fist on the boss. They also have counter attack so they will have 20 attacks turn 1 with 3+ to hit.

They have a chapter tactic: a really good one, except that all the best lists seem to shoot exclusively. Their tactics sure rains on my parade.

Martel732 wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
Wait 2 wounds? i thought they where 3

So 12 wounds with a 3++ basically? martel got it near right at 30 wounds

Yeah Tau should be able to put that many wounds on 1 turn of shooting with everything. EVERYTHING!

I've had Tau do considerably more wounds to me than that in a single turn. It shouldn't take an entire list. Hell, I had Eldar do 71 once. Sounds like these TWF are just another squad asking to be casualties of Xeno firepower.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I find it hard to believe that the Tau can't stop wolf cavalry. High yield missile pods (the other thing in addition to IA that every Tau list seems to have) spam them to death the same as they spam everything to death. Oh, here's 30 wounds, hold that for me chief. If this were to be true, my BA might as well just concede every game to Thunderwolf cavalry, because we have literally no chance if the Tau can't stop them. The BA, with their incredible ranks of non-firepower.

Typical tau cries...complain about something when in fact the tau are best equipt to deal with with said complaint. Who else has spare 30 inch str 5 shots on their basic troops to obliterate thunder-wolves?

You still need a Butt load of shots to go through 3+/3++. and these things are fast.

I dont has wolf book but what are there wound stats and can they get fnp normally? and typical unit size? i actually wana see how many shots

Nah no FNP. They are just t5 2w 3++ marines with 4 rending attacks...yeah - they are incredibly awesome. It will take them 5-6 rounds of combat to kill a ripetide and along the way the rip could possibly snag a few himself. My experience with SW though...they can't win without their thunder-wolves - they are just regular marines without chapter tactics without those things.

Usuaully they run in groups of 4. 1 will have a powerfist and 3 have rending attacks. 4 attacks each at str 5 and str 9 power fist on the boss. They also have counter attack so they will have 20 attacks turn 1 with 3+ to hit.

They have a chapter tactic: a really good one, except that all the best lists seem to shoot exclusively. Their tactics sure rains on my parade.

Is counter attack their chapter tactic?

 Desubot wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I find it hard to believe that the Tau can't stop wolf cavalry. High yield missile pods (the other thing in addition to IA that every Tau list seems to have) spam them to death the same as they spam everything to death. Oh, here's 30 wounds, hold that for me chief. If this were to be true, my BA might as well just concede every game to Thunderwolf cavalry, because we have literally no chance if the Tau can't stop them. The BA, with their incredible ranks of non-firepower.

Typical tau cries...complain about something when in fact the tau are best equipt to deal with with said complaint. Who else has spare 30 inch str 5 shots on their basic troops to obliterate thunder-wolves?

You still need a Butt load of shots to go through 3+/3++. and these things are fast.

I dont has wolf book but what are there wound stats and can they get fnp normally? and typical unit size? i actually wana see how many shots

T5 and 2 wounds. They can't get FnP normally, most good players run an IC with a 2+ save in front to tank shots since small arms is their weakness.

Assuming a normal guy is being fired upon a single shot from a tau fire warrior has a
50% hit, 50% wound, 33% failed save, so a 8.25% wound chance.
Every 12 shots causes a wound, roughly. Marker lights improve this. The IC in front doubles this number. Marker lights decrease it obviously.

1 marker light is 9.2 shots required per wound.
2 marker lights is 7.3 shots required per wound.
They are tough, but considering their expense, can be brought down by a lot of troops. IDing them is obviously the better choice.

Yes, it's counterattack. In all of their choppy glory. Basically, SW are immune to assault. They claim they aren't but that's what it boils down to.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Akiasura wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I find it hard to believe that the Tau can't stop wolf cavalry. High yield missile pods (the other thing in addition to IA that every Tau list seems to have) spam them to death the same as they spam everything to death. Oh, here's 30 wounds, hold that for me chief. If this were to be true, my BA might as well just concede every game to Thunderwolf cavalry, because we have literally no chance if the Tau can't stop them. The BA, with their incredible ranks of non-firepower.

Typical tau cries...complain about something when in fact the tau are best equipt to deal with with said complaint. Who else has spare 30 inch str 5 shots on their basic troops to obliterate thunder-wolves?

You still need a Butt load of shots to go through 3+/3++. and these things are fast.

I dont has wolf book but what are there wound stats and can they get fnp normally? and typical unit size? i actually wana see how many shots

T5 and 2 wounds. They can't get FnP normally, most good players run an IC with a 2+ save in front to tank shots since small arms is their weakness.

Assuming a normal guy is being fired upon a single shot from a tau fire warrior has a
50% hit, 50% wound, 33% failed save, so a 8.25% wound chance.
Every 12 shots causes a wound, roughly. Marker lights improve this. The IC in front doubles this number. Marker lights decrease it obviously.

1 marker light is 9.2 shots required per wound.
2 marker lights is 7.3 shots required per wound.
They are tough, but considering their expense, can be brought down by a lot of troops. IDing them is obviously the better choice.

You could use a volley from some plasma suits or an IA shot to try to frag the front guy and then just butcher them with dakka. I suspect that the SW propensity for drop lists is probably a bigger problem for the Tau overall.

Martel732 wrote:
Yes, it's counterattack. In all of their choppy glory. Basically, SW are immune to assault. They claim they aren't but that's what it boils down to.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Akiasura wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I find it hard to believe that the Tau can't stop wolf cavalry. High yield missile pods (the other thing in addition to IA that every Tau list seems to have) spam them to death the same as they spam everything to death. Oh, here's 30 wounds, hold that for me chief. If this were to be true, my BA might as well just concede every game to Thunderwolf cavalry, because we have literally no chance if the Tau can't stop them. The BA, with their incredible ranks of non-firepower.

Typical tau cries...complain about something when in fact the tau are best equipt to deal with with said complaint. Who else has spare 30 inch str 5 shots on their basic troops to obliterate thunder-wolves?

You still need a Butt load of shots to go through 3+/3++. and these things are fast.

I dont has wolf book but what are there wound stats and can they get fnp normally? and typical unit size? i actually wana see how many shots

T5 and 2 wounds. They can't get FnP normally, most good players run an IC with a 2+ save in front to tank shots since small arms is their weakness.

Assuming a normal guy is being fired upon a single shot from a tau fire warrior has a
50% hit, 50% wound, 33% failed save, so a 8.25% wound chance.
Every 12 shots causes a wound, roughly. Marker lights improve this. The IC in front doubles this number. Marker lights decrease it obviously.

1 marker light is 9.2 shots required per wound.
2 marker lights is 7.3 shots required per wound.
They are tough, but considering their expense, can be brought down by a lot of troops. IDing them is obviously the better choice.

You could use a volley from some plasma suits or an IA shot to try to frag the front guy and then just butcher them.

Also 4 attacks base from a thunderwolf is only a little bit OP...I mean...a dread knight has 3. Thunderwolves are obviously a little under costed too but as the norm goes...thats kind of okay because everything else sucks.

4 base attacks just makes it so they don't particularly care if they are charged. Which they already care didn't because they are SW.

Martel732 wrote:
Yes, it's counterattack. In all of their choppy glory. Basically, SW are immune to assault. They claim they aren't but that's what it boils down to.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Akiasura wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I find it hard to believe that the Tau can't stop wolf cavalry. High yield missile pods (the other thing in addition to IA that every Tau list seems to have) spam them to death the same as they spam everything to death. Oh, here's 30 wounds, hold that for me chief. If this were to be true, my BA might as well just concede every game to Thunderwolf cavalry, because we have literally no chance if the Tau can't stop them. The BA, with their incredible ranks of non-firepower.

Typical tau cries...complain about something when in fact the tau are best equipt to deal with with said complaint. Who else has spare 30 inch str 5 shots on their basic troops to obliterate thunder-wolves?

You still need a Butt load of shots to go through 3+/3++. and these things are fast.

I dont has wolf book but what are there wound stats and can they get fnp normally? and typical unit size? i actually wana see how many shots

T5 and 2 wounds. They can't get FnP normally, most good players run an IC with a 2+ save in front to tank shots since small arms is their weakness.

Assuming a normal guy is being fired upon a single shot from a tau fire warrior has a
50% hit, 50% wound, 33% failed save, so a 8.25% wound chance.
Every 12 shots causes a wound, roughly. Marker lights improve this. The IC in front doubles this number. Marker lights decrease it obviously.

1 marker light is 9.2 shots required per wound.
2 marker lights is 7.3 shots required per wound.
They are tough, but considering their expense, can be brought down by a lot of troops. IDing them is obviously the better choice.

You could use a volley from some plasma suits or an IA shot to try to frag the front guy and then just butcher them with dakka. I suspect that the SW propensity for drop lists is probably a bigger problem for the Tau overall.

You look out sir them onto the regular wolves, since everyone has a 3++.
Good SW list that doesn't ally spam seems to be a few pods with anti-infantry options with 1-2 pods being anti-tank, with 1-2 units of TWC to smash on turn 2. The whole list minus 2 pods is in your face by turn 1, and will be in CC by turn 2 unless you are absurdly fast (waveserpents mainly).

How fast is this TWC? Don't they get just a 12" move?

Martel732 wrote:
How fast is this TWC? Don't they get just a 12" move?

Yep.

Move 12, Run T1

Move 12, Charge T2

Martel732 wrote:
How fast is this TWC? Don't they get just a 12" move?

They are still beasts unless everyone plays them wrong. They can move quickly, and charge reliably.
Slightly less so in 7th but they are a lot tougher now