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We never got into epic, none of us could paint the larger figs and doing the smaller ones seamed even worse . But getting these titans in a larger scale will be great.

 Theophony wrote:
We never got into epic, none of us could paint the larger figs and doing the smaller ones seamed even worse . But getting these titans in a larger scale will be great.

Really? One of my favourite thing about smaller scales is how they get easier to paint. The smaller they are the easier that they usually are.

Of course when Epic came out I was a snotty nosed little twerp, so I butchered the paint job on all my Epic stuff the same way I butchered the paint job on everything else I painted back then But these days I love anything 15mm scale and smaller, so easy to churn out good looking models.

Absolutely agree AllSeeingSkink - really good scale to paint, you can do an awful lot with a base coat and wash/drybrush.

I can probably paint a unit or squad of vehicles in the time it would take me to paint a single miniature in 28mm.

Less bling to paint, bloody lot easier to paint! Well 12mm(old warmaster) seems to give me headache though. For some reason even harder than 28mm! Well except GW's new 40k models that have upped bling up to 13.

Part of it's the lack of details, part of it is that shading/highlighting is easier. On a 15mm or smaller model simply painting it a dark colour and highlighting it your base colour will give results that look great (whereas the same on a 20+mm model will look somewhat unfinished) and doing the highlights is much easier, a well positioned tap with the brush is all you need to highlight most bits (whereas 20+mm you have to be much more careful to avoid it looking messy).

I reckon on the tabletop my 15mm models look better than my 28mm ones but they took a fraction of the time to paint.

soooooooooooooooooooooooooo hyped for a return of epic (eventually)

But.. but.. it hasn't gone anywhere..

I too want to Epic. (said in Rogal Dorn's voice)

Pacific wrote:Absolutely agree AllSeeingSkink - really good scale to paint, you can do an awful lot with a base coat and wash/drybrush.

I can probably paint a unit or squad of vehicles in the time it would take me to paint a single miniature in 28mm.

tneva82 wrote:Less bling to paint, bloody lot easier to paint! Well 12mm(old warmaster) seems to give me headache though. For some reason even harder than 28mm! Well except GW's new 40k models that have upped bling up to 13.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:Part of it's the lack of details, part of it is that shading/highlighting is easier. On a 15mm or smaller model simply painting it a dark colour and highlighting it your base colour will give results that look great (whereas the same on a 20+mm model will look somewhat unfinished) and doing the highlights is much easier, a well positioned tap with the brush is all you need to highlight most bits (whereas 20+mm you have to be much more careful to avoid it looking messy).

I reckon on the tabletop my 15mm models look better than my 28mm ones but they took a fraction of the time to paint.

Formosa wrote:soooooooooooooooooooooooooo hyped for a return of epic (eventually)

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Theophony wrote:
We never got into epic, none of us could paint the larger figs and doing the smaller ones seamed even worse . But getting these titans in a larger scale will be great.

Really? One of my favourite thing about smaller scales is how they get easier to paint. The smaller they are the easier that they usually are.

Of course when Epic came out I was a snotty nosed little twerp, so I butchered the paint job on all my Epic stuff the same way I butchered the paint job on everything else I painted back then But these days I love anything 15mm scale and smaller, so easy to churn out good looking models.

Pacific wrote:Absolutely agree AllSeeingSkink - really good scale to paint, you can do an awful lot with a base coat and wash/drybrush.

I can probably paint a unit or squad of vehicles in the time it would take me to paint a single miniature in 28mm.

Yeah the facepalm was because my younger self didn’t understand less is more on smaller models and would try and paint all the details instead of base, wash and highlight . Now it seems to be a better scale for me, but I’m so vested in larger models.

Bit of a cross-thread sales plug for related content. Vanguard miniatures are currently running a crowdfunder for their 6mm range - is well worth checking out
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/300/694749.page

Also check out the company's main website, they are one of several companies now producing content usable with Epic.
http://vanguardminiatures.co.uk/

Theophany wrote:Yeah the facepalm was because my younger self didn’t understand less is more on smaller models and would try and paint all the details instead of base, wash and highlight . Now it seems to be a better scale for me, but I’m so vested in larger models.

I was in exactly the same place Theophany! Have been fishing out a lot of my old epic (some of which has been boxed up for probably 25 years) and boy is it badly painted - it's made me realise how very lucky we are these days with the acryllics, and not having to wait overnight (and after a thin layer of dust had formed) on top of the old enamel paints!

But you'll find the new paints (plus some extra painting ability and patience) will make an awfully big difference.

I think probably what has happened is that many years now of GW only producing 28mm (and other manufacturers following suit with their main games) has meant it has become the defacto scale for wargaming. But, outside of sci-fi/fantasy there isn't really any standard scale, and instead you choose a scale appropriate to the type of warfare that you want to represent. It's been said many times, but Epic really is ideal for the company to army-level encounters, and having awesome scenes of titans striding between buildings, entire platoons being wiped out by reactor meltdowns and combined assaults of tank squadrons and hundreds of infantry. All of this is easily achievable on the tabletop, and within easy reach of the wallets and time of most mortals, unlike trying to achieve the same at 28mm scale.

The big issue for me is aesthetic. There are a lot of "almost" 6mm ranges out there, but I'm not really interested in "almost". If I get into a game it's because I care about the setting so I want models that fit that setting exactly - note, I don't care who's selling them, just that they're accurate enough to pass as "official" to my eye.

So a GW-produced return to Epic is a big deal for me personally, because none of the readily available 6mm companies have made their not-Space Marines(etc) look enough like actual Space Marines(etc), and the original models are both a bit lacking by modern standards and sodding expensive now they're "collectible".

That aside, it doesn't matter because as I've argued before, I don't think GW will permit a new version of Epic, I think Titans and Knights is all we'll get out of the new AT, because GW don't want you spending 100 quid and getting a whole superheavy tank company, they want you spending 100 quid to get one single superheavy tank in 28mm scale - they know they can put a much higher premium on the same weight of plastic used to produce 28mm kits than they can 6mm because humans are suckers for big, shiny, impressive objects.

Why would they care about duplicating super heavy tanks but not titans and knights?

Pretty sure GW will go wherever the money takes them?

If AT takes off, they'll want to maintain sales. As Wamahordes has shown us, there's only so many 'big stompy robot with slightly different gun' type models you can release without wearing the concept thin.

For AT? Introduce Xenos race (Orks and Eldar first, kthxpls). From there? Tanks and infantry. Biggedy biggedy bong, Epic has returned.

Vorian wrote:
Why would they care about duplicating super heavy tanks but not titans and knights?

I think Yod's point was they don't want you duplicating 40k armies in 6 (or 8 or 10)mm scale, not so much that they care about 1 specific model being duplicated or whatever, they want you to spend $2000 on a 28mm scale 40k army not $200 on a 6mm one.

They potentially have a fear of Epic cannibalising 40k sales since GW pushes 40k as basically Epic in 28mm these days, at least as far as army sizes are concerned. I'm surprised these days how many people have 40k armies that are larger than my Epic armies of the late 90's

Warmachine taught me the opposite - that a game promoted with lots of big stompy robots loses its appeal when you fill it full of things that aren't big stompy robots.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

Vorian wrote:
Why would they care about duplicating super heavy tanks but not titans and knights?

I think Yod's point was they don't want you duplicating 40k armies in 6 (or 8 or 10)mm scale, not so much that they care about 1 specific model being duplicated or whatever, they want you to spend $2000 on a 28mm scale 40k army not $200 on a 6mm one.

Of course they miss how they won't get 3000£ from me on epic but instead get maybe 500£ on 40k.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
For AT? Introduce Xenos race (Orks and Eldar first, kthxpls). From there? Tanks and infantry. Biggedy biggedy bong, Epic has returned.

As much as I want Epic to return, my prediction is even if AT is massively popular, it'll be years before FW get even part way through releasing Titans/Knights, by which time the game will be on the decline and they'll never get to infantry stuff.

It's already been a year since BB came out and we still only have 5 teams, only 1 of which has been expanded with resin positionals, and BB was from what I understand very popular.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

Vorian wrote:
Why would they care about duplicating super heavy tanks but not titans and knights?

I think Yod's point was they don't want you duplicating 40k armies in 6 (or 8 or 10)mm scale, not so much that they care about 1 specific model being duplicated or whatever, they want you to spend $2000 on a 28mm scale 40k army not $200 on a 6mm one.

They potentially have a fear of Epic cannibalising 40k sales since GW pushes 40k as basically Epic in 28mm these days, at least as far as army sizes are concerned. I'm surprised these days how many people have 40k armies that are larger than my Epic armies of the late 90's

But the point still stands. Why would they be bothered by super heavy tanks and not knights?

I don't think they think people are buying an 8mm knight or super heavy tank instead of a 28mm one.

Ah, but BB (or so we're told. Always keep salt ready when people talk about the inner workings of GW) was intended to have resin teams - but due to the success has been bumped to plastic.

That causes a delay, no? And we're also told the positive reception has lead to the team responsible expanding.

In summary? BB was a toe in the water. What went before won't necessarily repeat, as it seems GW are reacting to upscale.

Vorian wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

Vorian wrote:
Why would they care about duplicating super heavy tanks but not titans and knights?

I think Yod's point was they don't want you duplicating 40k armies in 6 (or 8 or 10)mm scale, not so much that they care about 1 specific model being duplicated or whatever, they want you to spend $2000 on a 28mm scale 40k army not $200 on a 6mm one.

They potentially have a fear of Epic cannibalising 40k sales since GW pushes 40k as basically Epic in 28mm these days, at least as far as army sizes are concerned. I'm surprised these days how many people have 40k armies that are larger than my Epic armies of the late 90's

But the point still stands. Why would they be bothered by super heavy tanks and not knights?

No the point doesn't still stand because tanks vs knights wasn't the point in the first place

I don't think they think people are buying an 8mm knight or super heavy tank instead of a 28mm one.

I think they think people might buy an 8mm ARMY instead of a 28mm one. You can't buy an 8mm Knight instead of a 28mm one to slot in to your 28mm Imperial Guard army.... but you can just buy an 8mm army instead of a 28mm.

Whether that's actually what FW/GW thinks, I dunno, but they have avoided replicating their ranges in their entirety in other scales for quite a long time now.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Ah, but BB (or so we're told. Always keep salt ready when people talk about the inner workings of GW) was intended to have resin teams - but due to the success has been bumped to plastic.

That causes a delay, no? And we're also told the positive reception has lead to the team responsible expanding.

In summary? BB was a toe in the water. What went before won't necessarily repeat, as it seems GW are reacting to upscale.

Maybe, but I just don't see GW releasing massive plastic ranges on short notice. The investment is phenomenal. And if they can't do it on short notice the game will get stale before they get around to releasing smaller tanks and infantry after working their way through the titans.

And the turn around time is still an issue. If AT turns out to be massively popular GW can't just turn around and suddenly release Epic the same way they haven't been able to turn around and release more BB teams. In spite of BB's popularity we're still only averaging less than 1 team per quarter, and a team only consists of 1 sprue worth of design/machining/etc.

A large part of what made Epic possible back in the 90's was metal.

And now they can use resin instead of metal. And plastic.

Ultimately, nobody here has anything like enough knowledge to say what GW can or can't do in terms of production options. All we get are crumbs of info, odd theories, and info from Open Days.

There's little reason GW couldn't produce a full Epic game. IF the money is seen to be there.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

Vorian wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

Vorian wrote:
Why would they care about duplicating super heavy tanks but not titans and knights?

I think Yod's point was they don't want you duplicating 40k armies in 6 (or 8 or 10)mm scale, not so much that they care about 1 specific model being duplicated or whatever, they want you to spend $2000 on a 28mm scale 40k army not $200 on a 6mm one.

They potentially have a fear of Epic cannibalising 40k sales since GW pushes 40k as basically Epic in 28mm these days, at least as far as army sizes are concerned. I'm surprised these days how many people have 40k armies that are larger than my Epic armies of the late 90's

But the point still stands. Why would they be bothered by super heavy tanks and not knights?

No the point doesn't still stand because tanks vs knights wasn't the point in the first place

Sorry, but it does. Why would they care about super heavy tanks but not knights?

They could well want to keep it as big stompy robots, but it doesn't seem to make sense to say expansion into tanks etc wouldn't happen because they are worried about duplicating 40k units - because they are doing that already.

Vorian wrote:
Sorry, but it does. Why would they care about super heavy tanks but not knights?

They could well want to keep it as big stompy robots, but it doesn't seem to make sense to say expansion into tanks etc wouldn't happen because they are worried about duplicating 40k units - because they are doing that already.

Line has to be drawn somewhere.

"If titans are okay why not knights?"
"If knights are okay why not super heavy tanks?"
"If super heavy tanks are okay why not tanks?"
"If tanks are okay why not infantry?"

Boom we are where GW doesn't want seeing epic as competition to 40k rather than supplementary which is why last coming of epic failed despite outselling their own expectations by _400%_

Sure, that might happen. We don't know.

But I don't think you can rule out super heavy tanks solely on the basis of duplicating 40k because they are doing it with knights.

I'm very much with the Doc on this one - they'll do it if they think there's money in it.

I know there must be more people like me that aren't interested in the big stuff or full armies in 28mm, but would love an 8mm epic

Vorian wrote:
Sure, that might happen. We don't know.

But I don't think you can rule out super heavy tanks solely on the basis of duplicating 40k because they are doing it with knights.

I'm very much with the Doc on this one - they'll do it if they think there's money in it.

I know there must be more people like me that aren't interested in the big stuff or full armies in 28mm, but would love an 8mm epic

But how much they need to think them sell? 400% expectation of their own expectations wasn't enough last time around.

If we were going by that metric then neither BB nor Necromunda would be back.

Like I've said before, I'm sure there's a tonne of Titan / knight specific stuff they will be doing for several years, so I'm under no illusion that epic will be back any time soon.

I would imagine Xenos AT stuff would be more likely to come before 8mm tanks and infantry too

Vorian wrote:
If we were going by that metric then neither BB nor Necromunda would be back.

Like I've said before, I'm sure there's a tonne of Titan / knight specific stuff they will be doing for several years, so I'm under no illusion that epic will be back any time soon.

I would imagine Xenos AT stuff would be more likely to come before 8mm tanks and infantry too

But BB isn't exactly going to compete with AOS. Epic allows playing big battles of 40k cheaper thus leading GW to conclusion it's competing with itself.

But sure. Show how you can play big huge AOS battles cheaper with BB Necromunda doesn't allow playing big 40k battles either.

Epic meanwhile can easily be seen competing with 40k titans, hundreds of models etc GW wants to push to gaming boards.

Vorian wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

Vorian wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

Vorian wrote:
Why would they care about duplicating super heavy tanks but not titans and knights?

I think Yod's point was they don't want you duplicating 40k armies in 6 (or 8 or 10)mm scale, not so much that they care about 1 specific model being duplicated or whatever, they want you to spend $2000 on a 28mm scale 40k army not $200 on a 6mm one.

They potentially have a fear of Epic cannibalising 40k sales since GW pushes 40k as basically Epic in 28mm these days, at least as far as army sizes are concerned. I'm surprised these days how many people have 40k armies that are larger than my Epic armies of the late 90's

But the point still stands. Why would they be bothered by super heavy tanks and not knights?

No the point doesn't still stand because tanks vs knights wasn't the point in the first place

Sorry, but it does. Why would they care about super heavy tanks but not knights?

Yod was talking about the game expanding to Epic (it's literally part of the same sentence), he just used super heavy tanks as an example of them not wanting to cannibalise sales and used that as an arbitrary line of where he thought GW would stop with it.

They could well want to keep it as big stompy robots, but it doesn't seem to make sense to say expansion into tanks etc wouldn't happen because they are worried about duplicating 40k units - because they are doing that already.

I think there's a small but not large chance of them expanding in to super heavy tanks, but it's the "etc" which is the point. I don't expect them to duplicate the entire range. We can argue about where they might draw the line (Titans but not Knights, Knights but not Super Heavy Tanks, Super Heavy Tanks but not regular tanks, regular tanks but not smaller vehicles, smaller vehicles but not infantry....), but I think the chance of them expanding to the entire range is somewhere between tiny and non-existent.

I meant specifically with regards to how profitable to they have to be - Necromunda and BB got cut despite selling too.

The degree to which Epic would compete with 40k is pure conjecture. I don't think an 8mm game competes much with a 28mm (or whatever the real scale of 40k is now) game. But my opinion is just conjecture too.

The only thing to say about it is they are doing knights so they are showing they are willing to produce some 40k scale units in 8mm. That doesn't mean they will definitely produce others but it does show it isn't 100% out of the question.

Yod was talking about the game expanding to Epic (it's literally part of the same sentence), he just used super heavy tanks as an example of them not wanting to cannibalise sales and used that as an arbitrary line of where he thought GW would stop with it.

Sure, and my point was why would they have an issue about duplication on super heavies but not knights. As in why have you picked that arbitrary line? I was engaging in a discussion :/

tneva82 wrote:

Vorian wrote:
If we were going by that metric then neither BB nor Necromunda would be back.

Like I've said before, I'm sure there's a tonne of Titan / knight specific stuff they will be doing for several years, so I'm under no illusion that epic will be back any time soon.

I would imagine Xenos AT stuff would be more likely to come before 8mm tanks and infantry too

But BB isn't exactly going to compete with AOS. Epic allows playing big battles of 40k cheaper thus leading GW to conclusion it's competing with itself.

But sure. Show how you can play big huge AOS battles cheaper with BB Necromunda doesn't allow playing big 40k battles either.

Epic meanwhile can easily be seen competing with 40k titans, hundreds of models etc GW wants to push to gaming boards.

Yeah, the whole point people have been making is trying to avoid overlapping ranges.

If GW only does Titans, there's really almost no overlap with 40k. The more they add smaller units the more overlap and the bigger the chance of people using it as an alternative to 40k ("wait a second, why am I buying fifty 28mm Leman Russes for that Apocolypse game when I can just buy a few blisters of 6mm ones!"). The idea of 40k games on the scale of Epic wasn't really a thing back in the 90's when Epic was last released (outside of a few dioramas and whatnot, eg. Big Toof River at the 97 Games Day).