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Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






 Eldarsif wrote:
Regarding DE flyers the problem is that they tend to be risky in 4x4 maps as you can't really fly anywhere except in the usual box of the map itself. This means that you'll often be in the enemy zone and if they are careful(and have enough units) they can try to position their troops so you can't place your flyer. If you can't position your flyer it is removed from the game.

Also, Ravagers do benefit more from LOS terrain so if you are used to playing with a lot of terrain they can hunt by limiting the amount of stuff that can see them. Basically I've found Ravagers useful in rich terrain maps and flyers better when people are afraid of using terrain.

However, to be fair most people tend to put very little terrain so flyers tend to be the safer all-around bet. Even I am considering getting one extra of each to play with(and test putting LEDs in).


Why are you playing on a 4x4? Are you playing 1k points or something?

   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





war wrote:
They got rid of the tabling rule with only flyers on the field. They can’t take objectives, but you don’t auto lose. (If I’m wrong about that, please tell me where it is so I can see it)


Its in the FAQ.
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






Dionysodorus wrote:
Is the Haemonculus warlord trait re-rolling invuln saves of 1 or is it re-rolling FNP saves of 1? One is much, much better than the other.


my source for all this info is from the TTT video:

-The haemie reroll trait is for invuln saves (other sources said it was for "pain" saves but I believe the rule is actually called "insensible to pain" so the wording is probably using that.)

-The flyover rule does not require Advancing as he used it in the video, just movement in the movement phase

-you can take one dedicated transport per other unit in any detachment (not from TTT, just base rules of the game)

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in is
Angered Reaver Arena Champion





Why are you playing on a 4x4? Are you playing 1k points or something?


1000 points yes. I have found that point level excellent for quick games to try out synergies and unit efficacy.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






 Eldarsif wrote:
Why are you playing on a 4x4? Are you playing 1k points or something?


1000 points yes. I have found that point level excellent for quick games to try out synergies and unit efficacy.


OK, yeah at 1k 4x4 is just fine, but 1 flyer shouldnt be a problem on a 4x4 table i would think.

   
Made in gb
Killer Klaivex




The dark behind the eyes.

Okay, I believe I've calmed down sufficiently about our HQs still having no bloody mobility.

Don't worry, GW, when I converted those models to have wings, it was only so they'd make for better paperweights. Not like I'd want an HQ to hang out with my Scourges; or for a Succubus who could ride with her Reavers into combat, rather than just sitting behind them on a Venom, eating pies.

Okay, okay. I'm done for now. I promise to say nothing more about the lack of mobility on HQs for the rest of this post.


In terms of other stuff, the artefacts all seem pretty nice. Shame there couldn't have been one for wing- NO! BAD VIPOID! But yeah, a nice mix of buffs, weapons and flavour. A lot of fun Warlord Traits, too. I kinda want to have an Archon with Soulthirst, Soul Seeker and Huskblade to make a pseudo-Mandrake. Then I can use WWP to deploy him with some actual Mandrakes. Not efficient but could be quite fun.

Incidentally, Mandraks seem very good. I like that their melee weapons have AP-1 now.

Removal of Trueborn is really disappointing. Especially since Kabalites are still really limited in the number of special weapons they can take. I'd rather they'd stayed at 7pts and been able to take 2 special weapons per 5 (I'm here to play DE - not Orks ).

No change in Liquifier Gun or Hexrifle is equally disappointing.

However, for the first time, Shredders actually seem like they might be useful. I didn't know such a thing was even possible.

Scourges seem very good. Incubi are cheaper and Drazhar is no longer garbage.

Reavers could be decent, I think.

Annoying that the Court of the Archon's rerolls still don't work if they're in the same transport as their Archon.

Most vehicles went down significantly in price, thank God.

In terms of the different subfactions, Kabal looks to be the best at the moment. Not least because they actually get to benefit from Open Topped, whilst the melee subfactions get to eat s**t. Also, I think ranged can work without melee, but I don't think melee can work without ranged (and both Cult and Coven have very limited ranged ability).

I have to say though, our HQs are really looking like taxes. Even more so if you want to try the 4+ Patrols thing.
- The Archon's aura only really works with Ravagers. Otherwise, he's either footslogging and only able to buff transports, or else in a transport and not able to buff anything. They also got more expensive (not by a huge amount but still an unnecessary increase).
- Haemonculi work okay on foot, but how many of them do you really need? And like the Archon, they're far from cheap.
- The Succubus is the cheapest, which is something, but she doesn't do a whole lot and its doubtful that you need more than one of her aura.

Serious question - what are you guys planning to do with all your HQs?

 blood reaper wrote:
I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.



 the_scotsman wrote:
Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"

 Argive wrote:
GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.


 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

"Prepare to open fire at that towering Wraithknight!"
"ARE YOU DAFT MAN!?! YOU MIGHT HIT THE MEN WHO COME UP TO ITS ANKLES!!!"


Akiasura wrote:
I hate to sound like a serial killer, but I'll be reaching for my friend occam's razor yet again.


 insaniak wrote:

You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.

Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






I've made a first pass at a list that does most of its anti-infantry damage through Leadership, which I think might be a fun shtick to try to pull. Obviously, not tournament competitive, so I've totally disregarded detachment limits in my pursuit of silliness.

CWE Spearhead Detachment (Alaitoc)

HQ: Farseer Skyrunner (Doom, Mind War)

HS: War Walker with 2x Bright Lances
HS: 5x Dark Reapers with Exarch
HS: War Walker with 2x Bright Lances

Flyer: Hemlock Wraithfighter (Terrify)

DE Patrol Detachment (Dark Creed)

HQ: Haemonculus w/electrocorrosive, Dark Creed Warlord Trait, PGL (Roll 3D6 vs LD at the beginning of the turn for each enemy unit within 3", deal a mortal wound to each unit you beat)

Troops: 5x Wracks with Ossefactor, Electrocorrosive

Elites: 3x Grotesques

Transport: Raider w/DL, Grizzly Trophies
Transport: Raider w/DL, Grizzly Trophies
Transport: Raider w/Dissie, Grizzly Trophies

DE Patrol Detachment (Black Heart)

HQ: Archon w/blast pistol and Huskblade, PGL (Generic Archon warlord trait: Enemy units within 6" roll 2 dice for LD tests and take the highest)

Troops: 10x Kabalites w/PGL, 2x Blaster, DL

Transport: Venom 2x SC, Grizzly Trophies

DE Patrol Detachment (Red Grief)

HQ: Succubus with Archite Glaive and blast pistol, Addict trait

Troops: 5x Wyches with Shardnet, Blast Pistol power sword PGL hekatrix

Fast: 9x Reavers, 3x Grav Talons

Harlequin Vanguard Detachment

HQ: Shadowseer (Twilight, Mirror of Minds)

Elite: Death Jester
Elite: Death Jester
Elite: Solitaire (Harlequin Relic: The mask of secrets)

General tactics here is the Red Grief bikers are to distract/tie up as much as possible while my transports get into position turn 1. As much of my shooting as possible is anti-tank focused, since I'll be using LD to help clear hordes. turn 2 on, I can very trivially stack most infantry targets to -6LD to -8LD, and then I have numerous different weapons designed to put 1-2 wounds on each enemy unit to force tests.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/02 17:55:15


"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in it
Regular Dakkanaut





Thank you so much Scotsman for gathering the news! Unfortunately I believe some are not totally right, but dont worry.
The stratagem of regaining wounds on monsters and rerolling wounds is amazing! Where have you heard it?
   
Made in ca
Renegade Inquisitor with a Bound Daemon





Tied and gagged in the back of your car

So, assuming a list already has an Archon, what are peoples' thoughts on Drazhar instead of a second fights Archon? I'm still a bit in the dark on Drazhar's new capabilities, but I figure it's still not too early to consider my options.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






If he didnt get cheaper, not worth it, 2 Succubus are way more damage and still only 2/3 the cost. But if you take Lots of Incubi i would take him, tho IDK if Incubi are even worth it anymore.

But i would love to use him, so i hope he is at least 30pts cheaper, i would play him in that case.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/04/02 23:49:59


   
Made in us
Hellion Hitting and Running






So I play Ynarri harlequins and I am really excited about wyches. I am thinking of running a group of 20 of them with some shard net and implailers, deep strike them in and the words of the Phoenix them into charge range. If they can multi charge several units and tie them up for a few turns while my harlequins run around killing other targets, might be really good.

Scourge are also looking really nice to drop down with blasters and be made to shoot twice. I might be able to drop a lot of fusion pistols as my anti-tank is elsewhere.
   
Made in it
Waaagh! Ork Warboss




Italy

 vipoid wrote:


Serious question - what are you guys planning to do with all your HQs?


Well I never liked the archons and I don't think I'll bring many of them now. Two haemys are the way to go for me since I love grots and talos but I think a single succubus can fit well, she's cheap and now wyches may have a purpose. I think 3 HQs are the max number to field, a battallion plus another detachment or the 3x patrol detachments thing. More HQs are a huge tax.

I'm not worried about the lack of mobility that our HQs have. I planned to run 2 haemys anyway: one that shares a raider with 4 grots and the second one footslogs with talos. Eventually I'll bring a succubus who is fast enough to footslog with the appropriate drug and after all if you seek a turn 3 assault she doesn't need more speed. The best drugs like the +1S, +1A, +1T are all better on reavers, hellions, wyches and the +1WS is useless on a succubus, so the real choice is between the LD boost or the increased movement range. 20 wyches on foot can also be a thing now so no need of more speed on the HQ in this case either.

Archons can share a venom with up to four bodyguards from the court or up to nine incubi in a raider. I don't think I'd ever want to run him with something else as he doesn't give the aura to shooting units while embarked, so the 10 kabals plus the archon in a raider never seemed interesting to me. The only case in which a fast HQ or a better transport capacity on a raider are needed is when you want to field one or more units of 10 wyches in a raider.

 
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran





United Kingdom

Apologies if this is a stupid question, but are some units getting cheaper in terms of power level, or is it just points that are being adjusted? Thanks.
   
Made in no
Liche Priest Hierophant





Bergen

1 power level is rougly 20 points. Points are decreasing on many things. You do the math.

   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






 lambsandlions wrote:
So I play Ynarri harlequins and I am really excited about wyches. I am thinking of running a group of 20 of them with some shard net and implailers, deep strike them in and the words of the Phoenix them into charge range. If they can multi charge several units and tie them up for a few turns while my harlequins run around killing other targets, might be really good.

Scourge are also looking really nice to drop down with blasters and be made to shoot twice. I might be able to drop a lot of fusion pistols as my anti-tank is elsewhere.


The dirtiest Ynnari wych combo available is to do the following:

1) Take them as Cult of Strife, ensuring that you have a Drukhari detachment of some sort in your army (Current most competitive one in town appears to be Archon+3 Ravagers in a Spearhead)

2) Put them in a Raider or some such other device to get them within 4" of an enemy unit WITHOUT using Word of the Pheonix. Let's assume you've got 10, you've selected Attack drugs, and you're popping out of a Raider.

3) Use Word of the Pheonix and select "Fight" as an option. The fight phase sequence is Pile in, attack, consolidate - so you select your wyches, they Pile In, ignoring overwatch. Use the 2CP "Hyperstim Backlash" stratagem to increase their attacks by an additional +1 for the rest of the turn, because that's about to get you some serious value.

4) Make your 51 attacks in the Psychic Phase. Wait for the fight phase.

5) Select them to fight in the fight phase, make your 51 attacks again, and try to kill a unit. Activate the special Strife stratagem for 3CP

6) Make your 51 attacks again.

It costs 5CP, which is really steep, but that 100pt unit of wyches just threw 153 attacks, and the Hyperstimm Backlash stratagem is going to benefit you for up to 40 extra attacks (it remains active into your opponent's turn). You totally ignored overwatch, and because you didn't charge that turn, you're totally open to bounce from enemy unit to enemy unit, attacking anyone you can get into range with during your pile in moves.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Amishprn86 wrote:
If he didnt get cheaper, not worth it, 2 Succubus are way more damage and still only 2/3 the cost. But if you take Lots of Incubi i would take him, tho IDK if Incubi are even worth it anymore.

But i would love to use him, so i hope he is at least 30pts cheaper, i would play him in that case.


Splintermind podcast mentioned he got a lot cheaper, I forget the exact value but it was over 20pts.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/03 11:25:13


"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in gb
Lethal Lhamean




Birmingham

So here's a rough list I've been working on, close combat oriented to do something different than the usual Venom spam. It's roughly 1900pts at the moment, there's too many specifics that people haven't been particualrly clear on to make a set list yet. I'll spend a Command point to give all 3 HQ's a WT.

Patrol Detachment (Kabal of the Black Heart)

Archon (Splinter Pistol, Huskblade)- Warlord, Labarynthine Cunning

5x Warriors, Shredder

Patrol Detachment (Prophets of Flesh)

Haemonculus, Splinter Pistol, Electrocorrosive Whip- +D3 CP WT

5x Wracks, Ossefactor, Electrocorrosive Whip

6x Grotesques, Cleaver and Flesh Gauntlet

3x Talos, Heat Lances and the Power Fist equivelant

3x Talos, Heat Lances and the Power Fist equivelant

Patrol Detachment (Cut of the Red Grief)

Succubus, Splinter Pistol, Archite Glaive, +2M Combat Drug, Stim Addict warlord trait for a second drug. Relic Archite Glaive.

8xWyches, Shardnet and Impaler, +1WS drug

Raider, Disintegrator Cannon

20x Wyches, Shardnet and Impaler, as many Razorflails as I can fit, +1S combat drug

12x Reavers, 4x Heat Lances, 4x Grav Talons

10x Hellions

The Grots and big Wych blob start in the webway, I've got a decent track record of making 9" charges. Succubus and Archon go in the Raider assuming our transports aren't Obsession locked still, if they are then the Archon becomes a back field objective holder.
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






 Imateria wrote:
So here's a rough list I've been working on, close combat oriented to do something different than the usual Venom spam. It's roughly 1900pts at the moment, there's too many specifics that people haven't been particualrly clear on to make a set list yet. I'll spend a Command point to give all 3 HQ's a WT.

Patrol Detachment (Kabal of the Black Heart)

Archon (Splinter Pistol, Huskblade)- Warlord, Labarynthine Cunning

5x Warriors, Shredder

Patrol Detachment (Prophets of Flesh)

Haemonculus, Splinter Pistol, Electrocorrosive Whip- +D3 CP WT

5x Wracks, Ossefactor, Electrocorrosive Whip

6x Grotesques, Cleaver and Flesh Gauntlet

3x Talos, Heat Lances and the Power Fist equivelant

3x Talos, Heat Lances and the Power Fist equivelant

Patrol Detachment (Cut of the Red Grief)

Succubus, Splinter Pistol, Archite Glaive, +2M Combat Drug, Stim Addict warlord trait for a second drug. Relic Archite Glaive.

8xWyches, Shardnet and Impaler, +1WS drug

Raider, Disintegrator Cannon

20x Wyches, Shardnet and Impaler, as many Razorflails as I can fit, +1S combat drug

12x Reavers, 4x Heat Lances, 4x Grav Talons

10x Hellions

The Grots and big Wych blob start in the webway, I've got a decent track record of making 9" charges. Succubus and Archon go in the Raider assuming our transports aren't Obsession locked still, if they are then the Archon becomes a back field objective holder.


I think Hellions always lose out to Reavers in Red Grief. I think if you want Hellions, you want to get yourself into Cursed Blade. 5 points more buys you +1W, +1T, +4Mv plus 8" advance and still charge... if this is trying to be a "make competitive" list, I think there's no question that I'd trade out those 10 hellions for however many points that buys me in more red grief Reavers with as many grav talons and blasters as they can get their hands on.

On the flip side, Cursed Blade Hellions actually get to feeling really good. 5S base gives you the option to get them wounding on 2s with +1S (if you're up against majority T3 armies), or the default +Mv drugs, but the big thing is the morale immunity allowing you to deploy them as blobs of 20 where the Flyby attack stratagem starts being super high value for the CP. Red Grief Reavers make excellent use of it too, especially because they don't trade their close combat attacks for it, but those guys become absolute magnets for plasma equivalent weaponry. The problem is, Hellions of anything but Cursed blade get just scythed down by lasgun equivalents. I think they're not terrible running 5-man with grav talon helliarchs but they're just medicre to OK. But I'd never run non-cursed blade at higher than 5 man unless you're giving them Splintermind.

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in gb
Killer Klaivex




The dark behind the eyes.

the_scotsman wrote:
Splintermind podcast mentioned he got a lot cheaper, I forget the exact value but it was over 20pts.


Eh. He'd have to come down by at least 40pts before I'd seriously consider him.

 blood reaper wrote:
I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.



 the_scotsman wrote:
Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"

 Argive wrote:
GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.


 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

"Prepare to open fire at that towering Wraithknight!"
"ARE YOU DAFT MAN!?! YOU MIGHT HIT THE MEN WHO COME UP TO ITS ANKLES!!!"


Akiasura wrote:
I hate to sound like a serial killer, but I'll be reaching for my friend occam's razor yet again.


 insaniak wrote:

You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.

Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






 vipoid wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
Splintermind podcast mentioned he got a lot cheaper, I forget the exact value but it was over 20pts.


Eh. He'd have to come down by at least 40pts before I'd seriously consider him.


Yeah, like I said in a previous comment somewhere - named characters are (and should be) Timmy choices, not serious competitive choices, if you're going to be balancing around different subfactions and limiting your characters to particular subfactions. I shouldn't be forced to take Mars because Cawl is 1000% better than a TPD in every way, even if a different subfaction would benefit my army build more. That just leads to monobuilds and crappy design. So I think what we've got are several characters who do "cool, awesome stuff' for not a whole lot of points, but none of the stuff they do is particularly optimized one way or another, it's just a lot of different tricks they can pull.

Urien's got this aura and that aura and he gives you CPs and he's got some crazy weapons and he's got a half damage thing and he's got a better statline and it's all only 20 points for him over a default Haemie...but eh, for about the same points I can make a default haemie with a more focused goal and build. The only real standout case for Urien is if you want to run a whole passel of Taloi and you want to bump them to S7 on their cleavers.

I don't know about Drazar (The only reason I think you might really consider him is if you're doing a 2HQ Kabal detachment, you want a beatstick but you don't want to spend your relic making a beatstick) but Lelith and Urien I think both hit a good spot with the new points costs. They have tricks, they've got interesting roles, but they're not so auto-include that you MUST take that subfaction to get them.

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






 vipoid wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
Splintermind podcast mentioned he got a lot cheaper, I forget the exact value but it was over 20pts.


Eh. He'd have to come down by at least 40pts before I'd seriously consider him.


This, he is 140pts, so what if 4-5 attacks attacking twice, a Succubus now is that strong and 1/3 the points. I would rather have 3 Succubus than 1 Drahzar until i see his points, he really needs to be at least 100pts. But iw ould play him for fun at 105-110.

   
Made in fr
Lead-Footed Trukkboy Driver





the_scotsman wrote:
3) Use Word of the Pheonix and select "Fight" as an option. The fight phase sequence is Pile in, attack, consolidate - so you select your wyches, they Pile In,

In order to be able to fight, a unit must be within 1" of an ennemy unit BEFORE piling-in or have charged this turn.

In your example, your Wyches are 4" away from the ennemy and have not charged, so I believe they wouldn't be able to pile-in and to fight at all. Correct me if I'm wrong.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/03 14:05:35


Deffskullz desert scavengers
Thousand Sons 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






 Nym wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
3) Use Word of the Pheonix and select "Fight" as an option. The fight phase sequence is Pile in, attack, consolidate - so you select your wyches, they Pile In,

In order to be able to fight, a unit must be within 1" of an ennemy unit BEFORE piling-in or have charged this turn.

In your example, your Wyches are 4" away from the ennemy and have not charged, so I believe they wouldn't be able to pile-in and to fight at all. Correct me if I'm wrong.


I guess the question is "does Soulburst bypass that restriction?" and while I'm not 100% sure (I don't play Ynnari myself) I have disputed with that exact claim myself in a competitive event and had the TO rule against me, and in several games after that I have had the same thing done to me.


"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in gb
Lethal Lhamean




Birmingham

 Amishprn86 wrote:
 vipoid wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
Splintermind podcast mentioned he got a lot cheaper, I forget the exact value but it was over 20pts.


Eh. He'd have to come down by at least 40pts before I'd seriously consider him.


This, he is 140pts, so what if 4-5 attacks attacking twice, a Succubus now is that strong and 1/3 the points. I would rather have 3 Succubus than 1 Drahzar until i see his points, he really needs to be at least 100pts. But iw ould play him for fun at 105-110.

I've seen several suggestions that Drazhar is around 90pts now.
   
Made in gb
Killer Klaivex




The dark behind the eyes.

 Blackie wrote:
Well I never liked the archons and I don't think I'll bring many of them now.


Well, as someone who has mostly Kabal stuff, I fear I don't really have that option.

 Blackie wrote:
Two haemys are the way to go for me since I love grots and talos but I think a single succubus can fit well, she's cheap and now wyches may have a purpose. I think 3 HQs are the max number to field, a battallion plus another detachment or the 3x patrol detachments thing. More HQs are a huge tax.


What does the second Haemonculus bring, though? Is it just so you can spread out a bit more without losing the aura?

 Blackie wrote:

I'm not worried about the lack of mobility that our HQs have. I planned to run 2 haemys anyway: one that shares a raider with 4 grots and the second one footslogs with talos.


Sure, but Haemonculi are also the HQs least in need of speed.

What if you instead wanted some Archons?

 Blackie wrote:
Eventually I'll bring a succubus who is fast enough to footslog with the appropriate drug and after all if you seek a turn 3 assault she doesn't need more speed.


And what if you actually wanted to run her with Reavers or Hellions?

Or would that just result in an overdose of fun for DE players?

 Blackie wrote:
The best drugs like the +1S, +1A, +1T are all better on reavers, hellions, wyches and the +1WS is useless on a succubus, so the real choice is between the LD boost or the increased movement range. 20 wyches on foot can also be a thing now so no need of more speed on the HQ in this case either.


Again though, you're acting as if Wyches are the only units a Succubus could possibly go with.

What about Hellions? Or Reavers? Or even Beasts?

 Blackie wrote:

Archons can share a venom with up to four bodyguards from the court or up to nine incubi in a raider. I don't think I'd ever want to run him with something else as he doesn't give the aura to shooting units while embarked, so the 10 kabals plus the archon in a raider never seemed interesting to me.


Three points here:

1) Doesn't the court suffer from the same problem as the Kabalites in terms of not being able to use his aura while embarked? Or benefit from being near him, for that matter.

2) It could easily be changed so that, for example, giving him wings lets his aura affect Scourges as well. Or it could only affect Scourges.

3) Even if it conferred no additional benefit, I'd still love to have the option of wings or such for mobility - if only for the modelling opportunities.

 Blackie wrote:
The only case in which a fast HQ or a better transport capacity on a raider are needed is when you want to field one or more units of 10 wyches in a raider.


Eh. This seems to be using bad design to justify more bad design.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/03 14:17:17


 blood reaper wrote:
I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.



 the_scotsman wrote:
Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"

 Argive wrote:
GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.


 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

"Prepare to open fire at that towering Wraithknight!"
"ARE YOU DAFT MAN!?! YOU MIGHT HIT THE MEN WHO COME UP TO ITS ANKLES!!!"


Akiasura wrote:
I hate to sound like a serial killer, but I'll be reaching for my friend occam's razor yet again.


 insaniak wrote:

You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.

Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
 
   
Made in gb
Lethal Lhamean




Birmingham

the_scotsman wrote:

I think Hellions always lose out to Reavers in Red Grief. I think if you want Hellions, you want to get yourself into Cursed Blade. 5 points more buys you +1W, +1T, +4Mv plus 8" advance and still charge... if this is trying to be a "make competitive" list, I think there's no question that I'd trade out those 10 hellions for however many points that buys me in more red grief Reavers with as many grav talons and blasters as they can get their hands on.

On the flip side, Cursed Blade Hellions actually get to feeling really good. 5S base gives you the option to get them wounding on 2s with +1S (if you're up against majority T3 armies), or the default +Mv drugs, but the big thing is the morale immunity allowing you to deploy them as blobs of 20 where the Flyby attack stratagem starts being super high value for the CP. Red Grief Reavers make excellent use of it too, especially because they don't trade their close combat attacks for it, but those guys become absolute magnets for plasma equivalent weaponry. The problem is, Hellions of anything but Cursed blade get just scythed down by lasgun equivalents. I think they're not terrible running 5-man with grav talon helliarchs but they're just medicre to OK. But I'd never run non-cursed blade at higher than 5 man unless you're giving them Splintermind.

You're not wrong, there's a definite element of "trying things out" with this list rather than pushing for full competitiveness as well as considering what I have in my collection, I may have 7K of stuff (may well be down to 6K now with all the points reductions) but Wych cults are very much under represented due to being terrible for so long.

The original plan was to try out having 2 Wych Cults with the other being Strife to maximise attacks but I wanted to give all three aspects a try out first, there will be a lot of refinement along the way here.
   
Made in gb
Killer Klaivex




The dark behind the eyes.

 Imateria wrote:
I've seen several suggestions that Drazhar is around 90pts now.


For 90pts, I might well use him.

I'm thinking he can go in a Raider with some Incubi and basically be a suicide-HQ.

 blood reaper wrote:
I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.



 the_scotsman wrote:
Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"

 Argive wrote:
GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.


 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

"Prepare to open fire at that towering Wraithknight!"
"ARE YOU DAFT MAN!?! YOU MIGHT HIT THE MEN WHO COME UP TO ITS ANKLES!!!"


Akiasura wrote:
I hate to sound like a serial killer, but I'll be reaching for my friend occam's razor yet again.


 insaniak wrote:

You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.

Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






 vipoid wrote:
 Imateria wrote:
I've seen several suggestions that Drazhar is around 90pts now.


For 90pts, I might well use him.

I'm thinking he can go in a Raider with some Incubi and basically be a suicide-HQ.


If you local allows (or tournaments youare in) to have 1 under strength unit, putting him with 4 incubi in a venom might be better, that way you can also use 1 CP to give it a bonus -1 ot hit, making it -2 to hit. If we can still cross Cult transports with units like we can in the index, a Black heart Venom will also give it 6+++.

Extremely survivable at that point, i have a friend that is doing that same thing and another with 5 Succubus (depending on the transports rules that is)

I know it is very cheesy, but comp is meant to find what is best.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/03 14:59:52


   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






The only other data point I can provide either way for this (and maybe this has been officially settled in a FAQ or YMDC) is that when a Guardsman activates his ability to perform superhuman double-action feats because some guy in a hat told him to (toldburst?) the rule "Fix Bayonets" specifically calls out the fact that it can only be issued to unit that are ALREADY within 1" of an enemy unit.

And on the other side of a coin, Khorne Bezerkers when they activate twice can cheerfully wipe a unit, and because they fight twice, they can activate again, pile in and fight again, even if they started the turn in combat and were not within 1" the second time they activate. I have had this happen many, many times since 8th started.


"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






the_scotsman wrote:
The only other data point I can provide either way for this (and maybe this has been officially settled in a FAQ or YMDC) is that when a Guardsman activates his ability to perform superhuman double-action feats because some guy in a hat told him to (toldburst?) the rule "Fix Bayonets" specifically calls out the fact that it can only be issued to unit that are ALREADY within 1" of an enemy unit.

And on the other side of a coin, Khorne Bezerkers when they activate twice can cheerfully wipe a unit, and because they fight twice, they can activate again, pile in and fight again, even if they started the turn in combat and were not within 1" the second time they activate. I have had this happen many, many times since 8th started.



On the turn you charge for that entire fight phase (attacking again is still the same game turn phase) you can NOT attack anyone you didnt charge, IF you made a charge that phase.

You have to declare a multi-charge in order to fight another unit with that stratagem. If you didnt charge that turn, you can attack anyone that you are within 1" of regardless if you started the round next to them or joined in via Pile in/Consolidate.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/03 15:42:01


   
Made in gb
Lethal Lhamean




Birmingham

 Amishprn86 wrote:
 vipoid wrote:
 Imateria wrote:
I've seen several suggestions that Drazhar is around 90pts now.


For 90pts, I might well use him.

I'm thinking he can go in a Raider with some Incubi and basically be a suicide-HQ.


If you local allows (or tournaments youare in) to have 1 under strength unit, putting him with 4 incubi in a venom might be better, that way you can also use 1 CP to give it a bonus -1 ot hit, making it -2 to hit. If we can still cross Cult transports with units like we can in the index, a Black heart Venom will also give it 6+++.

Extremely survivable at that point, i have a friend that is doing that same thing and another with 5 Succubus (depending on the transports rules that is)

I know it is very cheesy, but comp is meant to find what is best.

Incubi work better in large squads, so that sounds like a waste of command points to me.
   
 
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