Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Terminators don't get Defenders of Humanity since they are not Troops.

I really wish Pedro Kantor would count Sternguard as Troops for the purposes of Defenders of Humanity. That was his big thing in 6E and 7E.

 David Clarke wrote:

Gibs55 wrote:
Has anyone taken their Fellblade for a run now that Forge World FAQ the Relic rules?

I was trying to build a list around one, however at 750 points it is a rather massive investment!

Keen to hear how others are making use of them?

I've been using a Fellblade lately. When adequately screened it's been just about unkillable. Having plenty of reserve drops in a list helps it get deployed into a good postion with sight lines on the enemy force. It really dominates in games that start with Hammer and Anvil or similar deployments as it lets you fully utilise your weapons long range advantage to neutralise enemy armour before it can engage. I'm running mine at 717 points(Fellblade Accelerator Cannon,Demolisher,2xQuad Lascannon) in a 1500 point list. If I run into a horde list it will cost me the game unlike Imperial Guard superheavies that can go crazy with heavy flamer sponsons. Against everything else its death on legs with T9,26W and a 2+ save. Taking it to a tournament on Saturday so I'' have a better idea whether its an unstoppable murder machine or "all my eggs in one basket" after then.

Thanks!

Out of curiosity what are you running in the rest of your list to support it?

I am trying to build my list: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/734127.page

Looking at it, using new reduced-points-price C:SM unit cards, I will save...

28 points on thunder hammers, 8 points on lightning claws, 17 on the captain, 2 on the librarian, leaving me with 70 points... 60 to give all my scouts camo, and ten points to spare on upgrades, but not much to really spend it on except for maybe a combiflamer that I'd have a hard time modeling on my captain or librarian.

I suppose I could give the bolter-scout sarge a hand flamer? Or paint the combat knife as a power sword.

Alternatively could skip the cloaks on the bolter squad and give him a power sword and inferno pistol in the vain hope he might amount to something in close combat.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Terminators don't get Defenders of Humanity since they are not Troops.

I really wish Pedro Kantor would count Sternguard as Troops for the purposes of Defenders of Humanity. That was his big thing in 6E and 7E.

I don't have the book yet I thought it was all infantry.

That makes me sad.

Lift your game Pedro!

Malifice wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Terminators don't get Defenders of Humanity since they are not Troops.

I really wish Pedro Kantor would count Sternguard as Troops for the purposes of Defenders of Humanity. That was his big thing in 6E and 7E.

I don't have the book yet I thought it was all infantry.

That makes me sad.

Lift your game Pedro!

I wish it was. I guess this is one reason to bring a Battalion Detachment now.

Are people finding scout squads to be useful? I love the idea of them, despite playing GK (oops). Are shotguns meaningful?

I'm considering adding 3x 5x scouts. They're 70 points when I give the sgt. A plasma gun. That feels really good with their deployment rules.

What has been your experience with them?

I was disappointed when I realized Telion gave them +1 to hit, not +1 to wound. Was hoping to use him with sniper rifle mortal wounds. Has anyone brought Telion? I think his fluff is awesome.

Bigfashizzel wrote:
Are people finding scout squads to be useful? I love the idea of them, despite playing GK (oops). Are shotguns meaningful?

I'm considering adding 3x 5x scouts. They're 70 points when I give the sgt. A plasma gun. That feels really good with their deployment rules.

What has been your experience with them?

I was disappointed when I realized Telion gave them +1 to hit, not +1 to wound. Was hoping to use him with sniper rifle mortal wounds. Has anyone brought Telion? I think his fluff is awesome.

You do mean a Plasma Pistol, not Plasma Gun, right?

Probably means combi plasma.

I think I'm gonna start running 10 scouts in my lists to stop deepstrikers / ravenguard from getting close to my good stuff.

jcd386 wrote:
Probably means combi plasma.

I think I'm gonna start running 10 scouts in my lists to stop deepstrikers / ravenguard from getting close to my good stuff.

Makes sense.

Also, might take more than 10 scouts. I would think 3 Squads of 5 would be pretty solid and help with enabling Battalion Detachment on the cheap.

Yeah 3x5 may be better, but you can cover a lot of space with 2x5 models and utilizing the board edges, so we'll see how it goes.

Malifice wrote:

bort wrote:
...Though, admittedly, despite wanting to go first, if I stick to my 0 Stormraven list plan, I'm looking at 9-11 drops

Sounds pretty easy to table with the new FAQ.

A few deepstriking uints and some good shooting and you could be left with nothing but fliers (and lose instantly).

Reverse that. I dont have Stormravens, so my original worry was my 9-11 drop list running in to lots of lists packed in to only 4-5 Stormraven drops and forcing me to go 2nd. Now thats less likely. Well, or they pack in to 4 Landraiders instead. :p.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

Malifice wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Terminators don't get Defenders of Humanity since they are not Troops.

I really wish Pedro Kantor would count Sternguard as Troops for the purposes of Defenders of Humanity. That was his big thing in 6E and 7E.

I don't have the book yet I thought it was all infantry.

That makes me sad.

Lift your game Pedro!

I wish it was. I guess this is one reason to bring a Battalion Detachment now.

Possibly makes drop pods nearly worth it. You can drop a 10 Man tac squad on an objective and hold it.

A 10 man primaris squad is going to be awfully hard to shake off an objective in cover.

Spread them out and camp on objectives in cover. Your opponent is really going to need to bring the hurt on each squad to smoke them out.

So any actual statement from FW about our beloved Chapters?

Hospy wrote:
What role do you guys see Vanguard Veterans playing? Do you even bother deep striking with them?

Given that they have the same charge distance as terminators, I feel like both varieties of Terminators do the deep strike -> assault thing better than Vanguard vets, with normal Terminators shooting up less armored things and hopefully charging something tough, while assault terminators will liquidate anything they get into contact with. They also have much more durable armor in order to survive shooting should they fail their charges. Only thing vanguards have over them in this instance is being much cheaper and being able to assault flyers if necessary.

If I'm not deep striking with vanguards and am instead moving them up the board hopping from cover to cover, how do you end up kitting your guys, a mix of thunder hammers/lightning claws/storm shields/vanilla guys to catch bullets to take on all comers? Is it better to go all lightning claws/thunder hammers?

With the new wound allocation rules I can see the benefits of a bunch of vanilla line troopers + storm shield holders to take the hits while your expensive thunder hammers and lightning claws break through.

The best source of drop in plasma. If you want to play a deep strike army, you want duel plasma pistol vanguards as a support

stratigo wrote:

Hospy wrote:
What role do you guys see Vanguard Veterans playing? Do you even bother deep striking with them?

Given that they have the same charge distance as terminators, I feel like both varieties of Terminators do the deep strike -> assault thing better than Vanguard vets, with normal Terminators shooting up less armored things and hopefully charging something tough, while assault terminators will liquidate anything they get into contact with. They also have much more durable armor in order to survive shooting should they fail their charges. Only thing vanguards have over them in this instance is being much cheaper and being able to assault flyers if necessary.

If I'm not deep striking with vanguards and am instead moving them up the board hopping from cover to cover, how do you end up kitting your guys, a mix of thunder hammers/lightning claws/storm shields/vanilla guys to catch bullets to take on all comers? Is it better to go all lightning claws/thunder hammers?

With the new wound allocation rules I can see the benefits of a bunch of vanilla line troopers + storm shield holders to take the hits while your expensive thunder hammers and lightning claws break through.

The best source of drop in plasma. If you want to play a deep strike army, you want duel plasma pistol vanguards as a support

I'd never thought of dual wielding plasma pistol VV before... it looks like the sergeant can only take 1, but the rest can take 2, so that's 9 plasma pistol shots deep-striking. Worth jumping in a captain with them for overcharge potential at that points investment I'd say.
I like them with plasma pistols/power swords as well for some more flexibility depending on the rest of your list.

Would it be worth using up the vanguards to drop in plasma that way vs a sternguard with plasma/combi

considering the killshot strat

otherwise there is the new intercepter with the hand plasma cannons.

It seems like double plasma pistol Vanguard Veterans would be better than Drop Pod Sternguard with Combi Plasma. Same number of plasma shots, but a lot cheaper. The added bonus of being able to shoot in CC is good as well.

stratigo wrote:
The best source of drop in plasma. If you want to play a deep strike army, you want duel plasma pistol vanguards as a support

I like this concept a lot, and have been considering that as a unit to take in my Raptors chapter (Raven Guard). Have you tried the vanguard plasma drop?

Anyone else playing Raptors, what are you having Lias Issodon sneak in with? I'm thinking devastators.

Did anyone else notice the +15 PPM base to Centurion Devastators? I was actually fielding two units of these guys, but now I have to rotate out an Assassin to afford the price bump. Anyone think they're worth it at the new PPM?

Audustum wrote:
Did anyone else notice the +15 PPM base to Centurion Devastators? I was actually fielding two units of these guys, but now I have to rotate out an Assassin to afford the price bump. Anyone think they're worth it at the new PPM?

Oh man, those were pricey to begin with, albeit pretty badass. What kind of list are you running? If you have a more defensive list I think just regular Devastators is probably better. You can have 2 regular Dev Squads for the price of 1 Cent Dev squad, probably with some points to spare.
But their ability to move & shoot is excellent if your list is frequently moving up the table, imo.

Though, I might not know what I'm talking about, lol.

 ph34r wrote:

stratigo wrote:
The best source of drop in plasma. If you want to play a deep strike army, you want duel plasma pistol vanguards as a support

I like this concept a lot, and have been considering that as a unit to take in my Raptors chapter (Raven Guard). Have you tried the vanguard plasma drop?

Anyone else playing Raptors, what are you having Lias Issodon sneak in with? I'm thinking devastators.

I have both used it and had it used against me. It's done well every time I use it, though I did eventually drop the unit from my lists as it was the only thing I had dropping in. But they've wreaked havoc against me as well against a blood angel player who had a more drop in focused army.

They're a very good unit to use. And much cheaper than sternguard with a drop pod. Like, MUCH cheaper. Sternguard are still great though, I actually like them with their special issues more than plasma, as I've started using hellblasters (who I dropped the VV vets for. I run G man, or calgar, so keeping my units in a small area for reroll benefits is big for me)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Audustum wrote:
Did anyone else notice the +15 PPM base to Centurion Devastators? I was actually fielding two units of these guys, but now I have to rotate out an Assassin to afford the price bump. Anyone think they're worth it at the new PPM?

they weren't worth it before a price hike IMHO

Desubot wrote:Would it be worth using up the vanguards to drop in plasma that way vs a sternguard with plasma/combi

considering the killshot strat

otherwise there is the new intercepter with the hand plasma cannons.

casvalremdeikun wrote:It seems like double plasma pistol Vanguard Veterans would be better than Drop Pod Sternguard with Combi Plasma. Same number of plasma shots, but a lot cheaper. The added bonus of being able to shoot in CC is good as well.

I'm waiting until we see the full cost of a squad of plasma pistol Vanguard Vets vs the Plasma Inceptors. Weighing the point cost difference with difference in firepower, difference in durability, etc. Something tells me that the Vanguard Vets will be the cheaper, more reliable option, whereas the Inceptors will be riskier but with higher rewards in terms of returns in the firepower you get on the drop. I tried out plasma pistol Vanguard Vets twice thus far and both times they performed exceptionally well. But something tells me that this is a tactic that only works once. After that, your opponent will work to counter that strategy.

Here's the loadout I used-

1 Captain with Jump Pack, Grav Pistol, Power Sword 106 pts
5 man VV, 8 Plasma Pistols, Gave Sergeant a Plasma Pistol and Power Sword (total of 9 Plasma Pistol shots) 157pts

So that's 9 Plasma shots, hitting on 3's, re-rolling ones. I personally would probably switch out the Grav Pistol for a Plasma Pistol (only overcharging in emergencies) or a Storm bolter. So lets say 10 plasma pistol shots.

-9 (+1) Plasma shots at a max of 12'' range, hitting on 3's, re-rolling ones
-deep striking
-3+ armor save, T4 1 wound each for total of 5 on the squad
-12'' move
-shooting into combat/in combat
-decent combat ability with the sarge's power sword, 2 attacks on the vets and 3 for sarge

All for 253 points.

Not bad honestly.

Then we have the Inceptors. 6 D3 shots, so average of 12, potential for 18 shots. Lets assume the same Captain loadout as before, and assume average shots on the D3s.

-12 (+1 for the Captain) Plasma shots 18'' range
-hitting on 3's, re-rolling ones,
-deep striking,
-3+ armor save, T5 with 2 wounds on each regular Inceptor, 3 for the sarge, for a total of 7 wounds for the squad,
-10'' move on the Inceptors (still 12 on the Captain)
-no shooting into/in combats, instead you get the assault profile, so -1 to hit in exchange for advancing and shooting. You probably won't be overcharging when you do this.
-In my opinion, they have sub par combat ability. 2 attacks for each inceptor, 3 for sarge, no power weapon options. If you get the charge you can cause mortal wounds, but it will be a rare occurrence.

Likely to be around 220 points for the unit if not more. Add the Captain and you get a grand total of ~330 points, Land Raider territory.

Is the point cost increase worth the ability to advance and shoot? +1 toughness? +2 wounds for the squad? Losing the ability to shoot into/in combats really hurts. Thoughts?

I heard from my store guy that the plasma inceptors are seeming to be around 300ish points.

I dunno if he's got the right of it or not

 ph34r wrote:

stratigo wrote:
The best source of drop in plasma. If you want to play a deep strike army, you want duel plasma pistol vanguards as a support

I like this concept a lot, and have been considering that as a unit to take in my Raptors chapter (Raven Guard). Have you tried the vanguard plasma drop?

Anyone else playing Raptors, what are you having Lias Issodon sneak in with? I'm thinking devastators.

His condition is non-Terminator right?

Assault Centurions are perfect here. They are getting a hefty point cut in the codex upcoming, so you can get there and blast away several Bolter shots and Melta shots.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
His condition is non-Terminator right?

Assault Centurions are perfect here. They are getting a hefty point cut in the codex upcoming, so you can get there and blast away several Bolter shots and Melta shots.

Unfortunately, his condition is non-Terminator, non-Centurion, non-primaris. You could make those units infiltrate with the Raven Guard 1cp stratagem, but not Lias Issodon.

I have considered:
10 devastators, 3 heavy bolters, multi melta, 5 bolters, storm bolter, ammo cherub - 194p (any devastator variant could swap in one multi-melta to use for a ammo cherub double-shot within 12", +17 for upgrading HB to MM)
10 devastators, 4 heavy bolters, 5 bolters, storm bolter, ammo cherub - 177p
8 devastators, 4 heavy bolters, 3 bolters, storm bolter, ammo cherub - 151p (slightly budget version, still has bullet catchers)
5 devastators, 4 heavy bolters, storm bolter, ammo cherub - 112p (maximum budget version)

10 assault marines, 3 plasma pistols, no jump packs - 151p (costs less than 10 assault marines with no weapons and yes jump packs)

10 sternguard, special issue bolters - 190p (will be 180p in new codex)

Tactical marines seem like there is no reason you would want to send them along with Issodon, but maybe the Defenders of Humanity Objective Secured thing will change things in a big way. Really though, at a loss for what to take. Maybe:

10 sternguard, special issue bolters - 190p (will be 180p in new codex)
8 devastators, 3 heavy bolters, multi melta, 5 bolters, storm bolter, ammo cherub - 168p
8 devastators, 3 heavy bolters, multi melta, 5 bolters, storm bolter, ammo cherub - 168p

516p for 36 marines, just about 14.3 points each so not too expensive, for all of them together. I'm in the process of modeling my army so the "deciding" stage is important for me to know what to glue together!

If you need plasma, take Scions. Or Inquisition acolytes with plasma (but they're 21 pts booo) in a drop pod.

The scout infiltration rule is awesome, but target strikes require Scions or drop pods imo. (No need to use inquisition, I just like them!)

 ph34r wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
His condition is non-Terminator right?

Assault Centurions are perfect here. They are getting a hefty point cut in the codex upcoming, so you can get there and blast away several Bolter shots and Melta shots.

Unfortunately, his condition is non-Terminator, non-Centurion, non-primaris. You could make those units infiltrate with the Raven Guard 1cp stratagem, but not Lias Issodon.

I have considered:
10 devastators, 3 heavy bolters, multi melta, 5 bolters, storm bolter, ammo cherub - 194p (any devastator variant could swap in one multi-melta to use for a ammo cherub double-shot within 12", +17 for upgrading HB to MM)
10 devastators, 4 heavy bolters, 5 bolters, storm bolter, ammo cherub - 177p
8 devastators, 4 heavy bolters, 3 bolters, storm bolter, ammo cherub - 151p (slightly budget version, still has bullet catchers)
5 devastators, 4 heavy bolters, storm bolter, ammo cherub - 112p (maximum budget version)

10 assault marines, 3 plasma pistols, no jump packs - 151p (costs less than 10 assault marines with no weapons and yes jump packs)

10 sternguard, special issue bolters - 190p (will be 180p in new codex)

Tactical marines seem like there is no reason you would want to send them along with Issodon, but maybe the Defenders of Humanity Objective Secured thing will change things in a big way. Really though, at a loss for what to take. Maybe:

10 sternguard, special issue bolters - 190p (will be 180p in new codex)
8 devastators, 3 heavy bolters, multi melta, 5 bolters, storm bolter, ammo cherub - 168p
8 devastators, 3 heavy bolters, multi melta, 5 bolters, storm bolter, ammo cherub - 168p

516p for 36 marines, just about 14.3 points each so not too expensive, for all of them together. I'm in the process of modeling my army so the "deciding" stage is important for me to know what to glue together!

I'd say Sterngaurd and Multi-Melta Devastators are your best bet.

Here is the English language pts.
https://m.imgur.com/a/jvbdX

I don't know if this was ever discussed, but they dropped the points of the Vindicator by 25 pts. It is still overpriced for what it does (sadly, I REALLY want to run one), but a little less so now.

Tried out a 600pt game tonight, using the new rules and Iron Hands chapter tactics. Three squads of regular Marines with Plasma and Combi-Plasma, a Rhino, two Company Veterans with axes and Storm Bolters, a Captain with an axe and a Storm Shield, and a Librarian. Gave the Librarian the Armor Indomnitus, and once I saw my opponent's list I spent three of my six Command Points to give my Captain the Axe of Medusa and make him into a Chapter Master. (The Chapter Master thing I was gonna do anyways, but I was waiting to see their list before deciding on what relics I took, because if he had lots of multi-damage weapons and not a lot of durability I would have gone for the Shield Eternal instead.)

My opponent basically brought a bunch of starter set Death Guard - That one Psyker guy, the Lord of Contagion, a Feotid Blight Drone, twenty Poxwalkers, and eight Plague Marines with a couple plasma guns and a power fist in there for good measure.


And lemme just say: Loving the flexibility that Command Points and strategems offer mid-game. Being able to tailor my Psychic Powers, Warlord Traits, and even partly my wargear and unit options just before the game starts is great. If I'd thought I was going to have to split up my army heavily in order to get objectives, I could have saved Command Points and not taken a Warlord. I was able to choose the relics that were most useful in the specific context of that game. I was able to precisely choose which Psychic Powers I thought would be most beneficial.

(Also: Loving that buildabear Chapter Masters are back in some fashion, even if that fashion costs Command Points. And getting a Chapter Master with 6 wounds, a 3+ invuln, and two sets of 6+ FNP is really great.)


I won, mostly because my Bolters were enough to deal with his poxwalkers, and thanks to all the rerolls on my Plasma I was able to knock out his heavier stuff pretty reliably. The Axe of Medusa is a pretty good CC weapon and generally better than Relic Blades for its reliability, and allowed me to effectively win most combats in a couple turns when comboed with his very high durability.

Hold on, you buy upgrades with command points?